Guys, we don’t need this again. Let’s give it a rest. We don’t all need to love or hate the movie. Nobody is going to convince anyone, so what’s the point of rehashing this argument? Lots of people liked it. Lots didn’t. What say we all agree to disagree and move on?

It’s not worth it.

Well lets see changing skywalker into an *** hole for one. Fundamental changes in how the force works. Apparently you can have somebody just download skill into you or something. (The Rey Kylo link) stuff like that. Peoples issue with Rey is not that she is powerful. It is that she is powerful and has abilities completely untrained. Still no explanation for how we got here. and no the books you suggested dont actually answer that question just vague hints. And a lot of fans dont read the books so they dont even have those crumbs. We meet Snoke and then he is killed. Which is kinda anti climatic. Hillary was supposed to win the election too so I dont find exit polls to be reliable as depending on where they are done can sway the results.

People can go to Celebration and not be happy with the last film you know? and those who go to celebration is an incredibly small percentage of the fan base largely focused around the city where it is happening.

One thing that was notice was a HUGE dip in opening weekend reciepts for Solo which picked up the following weekend. Which I suspect was a result of a lot of unhappy fans waiting to hear from others whether it was worth their time. And as more word of mouth got out that it was fun the box office for it picked up.

4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Well lets see changing skywalker into an *** hole for one.

Yeah. ***holes always sacrifice their lives to save others.

6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Fundamental changes in how the force works.

Such as...?

6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Apparently you can have somebody just download skill into you or something. (The Rey Kylo link) stuff like that.

When was "skill downloaded" into anyone? The Rey/Kylo link was specifically stated as Snoke making that communication possible; he said that in so many words.

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

It is that she is powerful and has abilities completely untrained.

Then you have the same problem with Luke at the same point in his journey, yes? Because that describes him, as well.

8 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Still no explanation for how we got here. and no the books you suggested dont actually answer that question just vague hints. And a lot of fans dont read the books so they dont even have those crumbs.

I see, so you expect these movies to hand you a daily journal to cover every moment of the intervening 30 years. Meanwhile, you're the one who made the claim that no Star Wars media (you specifically mentioned the books alongside the movies) has covered any of that period. That was shown to be incorrect. Despite your claim that neither the movies nor the books have shown any part of the path from Episode VI to Episode VII, we have the following:

Shattered Empire shows the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Endor.

Lost Stars takes us from pre-Episode IV to the Battle of Jakku, while the Aftermath trilogy gives us quite a bit of information about the state of the (former) Empire post-Endor, up to the Battle of Jakku, the surviving Imperial forces striking out to establish their first order, which includes specifically recruiting Brendol Hux to institute his program to indoctrinate and train children to be ideal stormtroopers. The trilogy also shows us the fits and starts of the New Republic establishing itself.

The campaign mode of Battlefront II covers some of the same period as the books above, taking us to and beyond Jakku, as well as showing us part of Luke's early search for Jedi artifacts, and taking us right up to the beginning of TLJ.

Bloodline shows us the New Republic becoming ensnared in the same sorts of bureaucratic mess that the Galactic Republic before it did, as well as showing us Leia's choice to focus on her political life, but breaking away to form the Resistance when the New Republic didn't see the whispers of what we know to be the nascent First Order as anything to be concerned about.

Meanwhile, the original movie also opens giving you "no explanation for how we got here." I expect you to rail about this "bad writing" just as forcefully.

10 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

We meet Snoke and then he is killed. Which is kinda anti climatic.

We meet the Emperor and then he is killed. I guess that's equally anti-climactic, yes?

I get it now, though. Going in a direction that doesn't jive with your personal wish list, but is internally consistent in content and execution with the other movies in the franchise is what you mean by "insulting what many fans love about Star Wars." It's another case of confusing personal taste with objective fact.

11 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

People can go to Celebration and not be happy with the last film you know?

Didn't say otherwise, did I? What I did say was that, observing the general vibe of the crowd, which can certainly serve as a good cross-section of the fan base, this "huge backlash" and "huge divide" that you claim exists isn't as huge as you make it out to be.

13 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

One thing that was notice was a HUGE dip in opening weekend reciepts for Solo which picked up the following weekend. Which I suspect was a result of a lot of unhappy fans waiting to hear from others whether it was worth their time. And as more word of mouth got out that it was fun the box office for it picked up.

That can certainly be part of it. I'd say a big factor was its release in such close proximity to the second-highest grossing movie of the year, which draws on a large portion of the same audience and performed better than the movies' shared parent studio expected. (Disney/Marvel expected Avengers: Infinity War to be big, but by all reports, it performed better than they expected.) I'll be the first to say that it doesn't help any movie for the studio to be so inflexibly tied to a release date that was selected years in advance, particularly since studios release those dates to the public almost as far in advance. On the one hand, it's kinda nice to already know the exact release dates of the next three Star Wars movies in 2022, 2024, and 2026. But if any of those three movies encounter production problems like Solo did...delay it. And, don't compete with yourself...don't release multiple movies that appeal to much the same audience in close proximity to one another.

Anyway, as others have said (and I have, too), the wheel's just going round and round. You didn't like it. No one's trying to convince you you're required to, just to make you see that personal taste doesn't equate to "bad writing," "bad filmmaking," or "insulting" anyone. I can respect your passion on the subject while (obviously) disagreeing with your conclusions. I genuinely do hope that future installments are more to your liking, and, as always, look forward to seeing your posts around the board.

32 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Yeah. ***holes always sacrifice their lives to save others.

Such as...?

When was "skill downloaded" into anyone? The Rey/Kylo link was specifically stated as Snoke making that communication possible; he said that in so many words.

Then you have the same problem with Luke at the same point in his journey, yes? Because that describes him, as well.

I see, so you expect these movies to hand you a daily journal to cover every moment of the intervening 30 years. Meanwhile, you're the one who made the claim that no Star Wars media (you specifically mentioned the books alongside the movies) has covered any of that period. That was shown to be incorrect. Despite your claim that neither the movies nor the books have shown any part of the path from Episode VI to Episode VII, we have the following:

Shattered Empire shows the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Endor.

Lost Stars takes us from pre-Episode IV to the Battle of Jakku, while the Aftermath trilogy gives us quite a bit of information about the state of the (former) Empire post-Endor, up to the Battle of Jakku, the surviving Imperial forces striking out to establish their first order, which includes specifically recruiting Brendol Hux to institute his program to indoctrinate and train children to be ideal stormtroopers. The trilogy also shows us the fits and starts of the New Republic establishing itself.

The campaign mode of Battlefront II covers some of the same period as the books above, taking us to and beyond Jakku, as well as showing us part of Luke's early search for Jedi artifacts, and taking us right up to the beginning of TLJ.

Bloodline shows us the New Republic becoming ensnared in the same sorts of bureaucratic mess that the Galactic Republic before it did, as well as showing us Leia's choice to focus on her political life, but breaking away to form the Resistance when the New Republic didn't see the whispers of what we know to be the nascent First Order as anything to be concerned about.

Meanwhile, the original movie also opens giving you "no explanation for how we got here." I expect you to rail about this "bad writing" just as forcefully.

We meet the Emperor and then he is killed. I guess that's equally anti-climactic, yes?

I get it now, though. Going in a direction that doesn't jive with your personal wish list, but is internally consistent in content and execution with the other movies in the franchise is what you mean by "insulting what many fans love about Star Wars." It's another case of confusing personal taste with objective fact.

Didn't say otherwise, did I? What I did say was that, observing the general vibe of the crowd, which can certainly serve as a good cross-section of the fan base, this "huge backlash" and "huge divide" that you claim exists isn't as huge as you make it out to be.

That can certainly be part of it. I'd say a big factor was its release in such close proximity to the second-highest grossing movie of the year, which draws on a large portion of the same audience and performed better than the movies' shared parent studio expected. (Disney/Marvel expected Avengers: Infinity War to be big, but by all reports, it performed better than they expected.) I'll be the first to say that it doesn't help any movie for the studio to be so inflexibly tied to a release date that was selected years in advance, particularly since studios release those dates to the public almost as far in advance. On the one hand, it's kinda nice to already know the exact release dates of the next three Star Wars movies in 2022, 2024, and 2026. But if any of those three movies encounter production problems like Solo did...delay it. And, don't compete with yourself...don't release multiple movies that appeal to much the same audience in close proximity to one another.

Anyway, as others have said (and I have, too), the wheel's just going round and round. You didn't like it. No one's trying to convince you you're required to, just to make you see that personal taste doesn't equate to "bad writing," "bad filmmaking," or "insulting" anyone. I can respect your passion on the subject while (obviously) disagreeing with your conclusions. I genuinely do hope that future installments are more to your liking, and, as always, look forward to seeing your posts around the board.

Apparently you havent heard all rhe Disney trying to say Rey is not a Mary Sue and making things worse by explaining the Snoke Kylo Rey link transfered skill into Rey.

And one can be an *** hole and still save people. For example batman can be an ******* all the time.

Yoda was such an a-hole to Luke on Dagobah. Bad writing!

8 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Well lets see changing skywalker into an *** hole for one.

Why do you think Luke is an ***hole in The Last Jedi?

Because he's broken? Because he's not exactly the man he was 30 years ago? Because he's not the perfect superman jedi master that the old EU made him out to be? Or is it that you don't believe he would have reacted in a moment of pure instinct to stop Kylo before realising what he was about to do (parallel to how he was about to kill Vader out of pure anger)? Or is it that you think he should have welcome Rey with open arms and start training her in the old Jedi way?

Here's an interesting misconception that I see too often about The Last Jedi: Rey didn't went to the island to train in the Force, she went there to get Luke back to join the fight. That's it, it was never about Rey getting jedi training. But that's what people expected. A lot of people actually expected an Empire Strike Back retelling but with Luke instead of Yoda, cracking some wise quotes while Rey lift some rocks. Feed our nostalgia by retelling us the same tale we got 40 years ago, only different, but the same. When Rey handed the lightsaber to Luke, a lot of people expected a beautiful solemn and symbolic scene where Luke takes the sword back and say 'Yes young one, I will train you in the way of the Force and give this weapon back to you only at the end of the movie when you'll have finished your training!' while shedding some tears over his long lost weapon. Oh my god, the legend is back! Now we're in buisness!

But no. What she found instead is a broken man that closed himself to the outside world, that went there to die. And part of the movie is to get to understand why he did it, why he wants to stay there and seeing him gets his spark back. A lot of the movie is a critism of the way people tends to put too much importance on things, on our heroes, how we tend to think that our heroes are perfect and can do no wrong. We elevate them to a Legend status, almost godlike. We blindly expect them to always make the best call in every situations. But that's not how things work, and The Last Jedi did a great job to humanize Luke. The movie reminds us that he is just human, like all of us, that he makes mistake too and that he can be blinded too by his own legendary status. His failure comes in part from himself believing that because he once redeemed his father, he could do no wrong anymore and redeem everybody (a beautiful echo of a lot of fans that believe that just because he resisted once to the dark side, he's suddenly immune to it and all his temptation). And the higher you fly, the higher you fall.

Luke in the Last Jedi is not an a**hole, he’s just human.

13 hours ago, Red Castle said:

And here I was, secretly hoping that we would get to Rose tomorow....

I was hoping for Kylo and Hux - [sarcasm] the opposing VERY capable and well deserved "Leaders" [/sarcasm]

With TlJ I grew to like the way Driver played Kylo and I also started to like Rey's character mainly due to the interactions between both. The drag between light and dark was great and the biggest point that made me overlook other plot decisions that weren't my cup of tea.

But with pages over pages about incompetent Leadership, I'm really surprised no one named Hux. I really missed some clever and menacing Villian in that position :D

14 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Apparently you havent heard all rhe Disney trying to say Rey is not a Mary Sue and making things worse by explaining the Snoke Kylo Rey link transfered skill into Rey.

And one can be an *** hole and still save people. For example batman can be an ******* all the time.

Well, Rey wasn't a Mary Sue...so.....

2 hours ago, jivjov said:

Well, Rey wasn't a Mary Sue...so.....

What is here flaw then?

9 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

What is here flaw then?

Let’s see, inability to let go of the past (her desire to return to Jakku to wait for parents who would not return), recklessness, impatience, stubbornness, naivety... need I go on?

59 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

... recklessness, impatience, stubbornness...

Thinking about it, wouldn't those three qualify as the theme of the new Movies?! A lot of the Characters had or still have to overcome them...

17 minutes ago, Malashim said:

Thinking about it, wouldn't those three qualify as the theme of the new Movies?! A lot of the Characters had or still have to overcome them...

Indeed.

4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Let’s see, inability to let go of the past (her desire to return to Jakku to wait for parents who would not return), recklessness, impatience, stubbornness, naivety... need I go on?

I like the Rey character. Having said that I don't know if any of those except for maybe inability to let go of the past counts much. She didn't have any consequences that really affected her from the other things you listed Tramp. Also naiveté would not be a flaw for that character because innocence maintained in the face of that existence would be an attribute in my opinion.

11 hours ago, Malashim said:

But with pages over pages about incompetent Leadership, I'm really surprised no one named Hux. I really missed some clever and menacing Villian in that position :D

I know what you mean and understand, but he grew on me. I like the character.

He's stupid, yes. But if we are being honest, it's not the first time a Star Wars villain is stupid or do stupid things. We just have to take a look at Grievous, Nute Gunray, Pryce or even Tarkin. It's kind of a recurring theme. The difference here is that in the case of Hux, they don't try to pretend that he is actually a military genius, they embrace the narative that he should not be there, that he is indeed incompetent. And we see that his officers, more specifically Capt Canady and Capt Peavey, start to realise it too once the fight begins.

He's there because Snoke thinks he's easy to manipulate and because of his father, even though he didn't held his son in high esteem, as seen here from the book Aftermath, when asked about him by Grand Admiral Sloane:

Quote

''Brendol, I understand you have a son. Not of your wife, an illegitimate child? Will he be the best the Empire has to offer?''

''I... Armitage is a weak-willed boy. Thin as a slip of paper and just as useless. But I'll teach him. You'll... you'll see. He has potencial.''

But he is vicious and ambitious. We can see at the end of The Last Jedi that he is just waiting for the right moment to kill Kylo and take his place as the new Supreme Leader, just like he did with his father. I think it will be interesting to see what their dynamic is gonna be in Episode 9.

On 5/17/2019 at 11:35 PM, Nytwyng said:

Then you have the same problem with Luke at the same point in his journey, yes? Because that describes him, as well.

So first, I actually kinda liked The Last Jedi. I'm not here just bashing everything. I like pretty much all Star Wars content. But I have seen a lot of people say that Rey and Luke are the same in their journey to strength. Here is where I feel the differences lay.

First movie Luke is introduced to the Force and a lightsaber but doesn't really use it or even fight Vader.

First movie Rey is introduced to the Force and a lightsaber and wrecks Kylo, who even wounded still had training since he was a child.

Second movie Luke has some training from Jedi Master Yoda and leaves early to fight Vader. He gets destroyed in the fight and loses an arm.

Second movie Rey has some training from Jedi Master Luke and leaves to face Kylo and Snoke. She is able to fight alongside Kylo to destroy a bunch of elite guards and then use the Force in a big show to free the remaining resistance.

Third movie Luke is finishing his training and finally manages to defeat Vader in a direct fight but only by tapping into his anger and nearly succumbing to the dark side.

Third movie.......Not sure yet.

But this is the key difference between the two. Rey was a badass in her first real lightsaber fight. Luke sucked until the last movie.

15 minutes ago, Rozial said:

So first, I actually kinda liked The Last Jedi. I'm not here just bashing everything. I like pretty much all Star Wars content. But I have seen a lot of people say that Rey and Luke are the same in their journey to strength. Here is where I feel the differences lay.

First movie Luke is introduced to the Force and a lightsaber but doesn't really use it or even fight Vader.

First movie Rey is introduced to the Force and a lightsaber and wrecks Kylo, who even wounded still had training since he was a child.

Second movie Luke has some training from Jedi Master Yoda and leaves early to fight Vader. He gets destroyed in the fight and loses an arm.

Second movie Rey has some training from Jedi Master Luke and leaves to face Kylo and Snoke. She is able to fight alongside Kylo to destroy a bunch of elite guards and then use the Force in a big show to free the remaining resistance.

Third movie Luke is finishing his training and finally manages to defeat Vader in a direct fight but only by tapping into his anger and nearly succumbing to the dark side.

Third movie.......Not sure yet.

But this is the key difference between the two. Rey was a badass in her first real lightsaber fight. Luke sucked until the last movie.

exactly

2 hours ago, Rozial said:

So first, I actually kinda liked The Last Jedi. I'm not here just bashing everything. I like pretty much all Star Wars content. But I have seen a lot of people say that Rey and Luke are the same in their journey to strength. Here is where I feel the differences lay.

First movie Luke is introduced to the Force and a lightsaber but doesn't really use it or even fight Vader.

First movie Rey is introduced to the Force and a lightsaber and wrecks Kylo, who even wounded still had training since he was a child.

Second movie Luke has some training from Jedi Master Yoda and leaves early to fight Vader. He gets destroyed in the fight and loses an arm.

Second movie Rey has some training from Jedi Master Luke and leaves to face Kylo and Snoke. She is able to fight alongside Kylo to destroy a bunch of elite guards and then use the Force in a big show to free the remaining resistance.

Third movie Luke is finishing his training and finally manages to defeat Vader in a direct fight but only by tapping into his anger and nearly succumbing to the dark side.

Third movie.......Not sure yet.

But this is the key difference between the two. Rey was a badass in her first real lightsaber fight. Luke sucked until the last movie.

Be that as it may, it's simply not a fair comparison to even make.

Luke grew up having pretty much never heard of the Jedi, with no clue what they were capable of. So when he started trying to grow as a Force user, he had pretty much foundation to build on until he met Yoda. And yet despite this, he still figured out Move and Enhance in his own, regularly using telekinesis, physical augmentation, and blaster bolt deflection during the Star Wars comics set between IV and V.

Rey grew up hearing about the myths and legends of Luke Skywalker and all his amazing abilities. So naturally, as soon as she realizes she has the Force too, she tries do what she's heard of Luke doing in the myths. Let's face it, if you suddenly found out that you could use the Force, the very first thing you would try would probably be telekinesis or a mind trick, too. There's already existing precedent for Force Sensitives in both Legends and Canon to develop these abilities with no formal training. If anything, Jedi training is more about giving the Jedi a moral code to follow when using these abilities, rather than just teaching the powers themselves.

Luke also grew up with a relatively comfortable life, with Ben protecting the Lars homestead. Naturally, he isn't much of a fighter. But put him in a cockpit, and he's one of the best pilots in the galaxy, with "no formal training." Just a bit of practice in a beat-up airspeeder.

Rey grew up relatively independent on Jakku, forced to fight for her survival against scavengers and other dangers of the desert. So while many people bring up Kylo "being trained since childhood," Rey herself has also been taught self preservation since childhood. I'd even argue fighting for your life on a regular basis is an even stronger foundation for combat training than cozy, leisurely ceremonial combat in a temple. And while sure, she grew up using a staff, not a lightsaber, the fundamentals of melee combat carry over from one to the other. Distance, footwork, and timing are universal to all melee weapons. And thanks to the omnidirectional cutting blade of a lightsaber, they're considerably easier to learn than an actual sword, which requires extensive training to deliver strikes with the proper edge alignment.

So yes, while a lot of people are quick to draw comparisons between Luke and Rey, and use that as an argument for why Rey is "overpowered" or "poorly written," it's simply not a valid comparison to make. The two are vastly different characters, with vastly different upbringings, and very different circumstances in their own movies. Rey started as a badass, ignoring the call to adventure, while Luke started as a novice, eager to take up the call to adventure, but unprepared for what it would bring.

With all due respect, this is a thrilling discussion...but maybe it should be on a separate topic before this one gets locked from going off topic?

Bringing it back to on topic. I am a wee bit disappointed with this book. I expected to see more canon character stat blocks and a few more vehicles in it. I am bewildered why the included the Republic Z-95 when that was a late Clone Wars ship and not the V-19 which was an early Clone Wars ship.

I am also wondering how much of the content in Collapse of the Republic will be reprinted. Will we see B1 and B2s reprinted along with Vulture Droids and Clones?

1 hour ago, Ebak said:

With all due respect, this is a thrilling discussion...but maybe it should be on a separate topic before this one gets locked from going off topic?

Bringing it back to on topic. I am a wee bit disappointed with this book. I expected to see more canon character stat blocks and a few more vehicles in it. I am bewildered why the included the Republic Z-95 when that was a late Clone Wars ship and not the V-19 which was an early Clone Wars ship.

I am also wondering how much of the content in Collapse of the Republic will be reprinted. Will we see B1 and B2s reprinted along with Vulture Droids and Clones?

I'm of the mind that CotR will have more "iconic NPCs" since RotS gives us most of the 'basic' units. I also wouldn't be surprised if we see some iconic Clone Wars characters saved for a future Allies & Adversaries style book similar to how the cast of Rogue One were suspiciously absent from Dawn of Rebellion.

Maybe there will be high-XP campaign advice in Collapse? Rules variants, suggestions and advice on how to handle high-powered PCs, ways to reduce the overhead of running mechanically complex NPCs...

It would explain why Knight has a FR 2 prerequisite but is also a possible starting spec in all other ways.

8 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

Be that as it may, it's simply not a fair comparison to even make.

Luke grew up having pretty much never heard of the Jedi, with no clue what they were capable of. So when he started trying to grow as a Force user, he had pretty much foundation to build on until he met Yoda. And yet despite this, he still figured out Move and Enhance in his own, regularly using telekinesis, physical augmentation, and blaster bolt deflection during the Star Wars comics set between IV and V.

Rey grew up hearing about the myths and legends of Luke Skywalker and all his amazing abilities. So naturally, as soon as she realizes she has the Force too, she tries do what she's heard of Luke doing in the myths. Let's face it, if you suddenly found out that you could use the Force, the very first thing you would try would probably be telekinesis or a mind trick, too. There's already existing precedent for Force Sensitives in both Legends and Canon to develop these abilities with no formal training. If anything, Jedi training is more about giving the Jedi a moral code to follow when using these abilities, rather than just teaching the powers themselves.

Luke also grew up with a relatively comfortable life, with Ben protecting the Lars homestead. Naturally, he isn't much of a fighter. But put him in a cockpit, and he's one of the best pilots in the galaxy, with "no formal training." Just a bit of practice in a beat-up airspeeder.

Rey grew up relatively independent on Jakku, forced to fight for her survival against scavengers and other dangers of the desert. So while many people bring up Kylo "being trained since childhood," Rey herself has also been taught self preservation since childhood. I'd even argue fighting for your life on a regular basis is an even stronger foundation for combat training than cozy, leisurely ceremonial combat in a temple. And while sure, she grew up using a staff, not a lightsaber, the fundamentals of melee combat carry over from one to the other. Distance, footwork, and timing are universal to all melee weapons. And thanks to the omnidirectional cutting blade of a lightsaber, they're considerably easier to learn than an actual sword, which requires extensive training to deliver strikes with the proper edge alignment.

So yes, while a lot of people are quick to draw comparisons between Luke and Rey, and use that as an argument for why Rey is "overpowered" or "poorly written," it's simply not a valid comparison to make. The two are vastly different characters, with vastly different upbringings, and very different circumstances in their own movies. Rey started as a badass, ignoring the call to adventure, while Luke started as a novice, eager to take up the call to adventure, but unprepared for what it would bring.

No. The force has always required training. Not just knowing what could be done.

53 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No. The force has always required training. Not just knowing what could be done.

No, people are born being able to use it (as can be seen in clone wars, The Phantom Menace, and Rebels) Force users who don’t get early training might suppress it in childhood. Also sometimes people awaken to it.

6 minutes ago, Eoen said:

No, people are born being able to use it (as can be seen in clone wars, The Phantom Menace, and Rebels) Force users who don’t get early training might suppress it in childhood. Also sometimes people awaken to it.

Not in the way Rey uses it. Some people can intuitively use enhance. but that is about it. They dont go around doing influence or sense.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

No. The force has always required training.

Oh, you haven't seen the prequels?

1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

Oh, you haven't seen the prequels?

I have seen them. The only thing I saw was anakin being able to pilot better. We dont see them using influence untrained. We dont see them using lightsabers untrained. We dont see untrained individuals beating trained lightsaber users.