5 minutes ago, Vek Baustrade said:For the record, we've moved from bad writing to bad leadership to bad decisions. I'd like to look at that as progress, but I suspect it's only moving goalposts.
Or bad leadership that serves no good purpose in the story is bad writing.
Just now, Daeglan said:Or bad leadership that serves no good purpose in the story is bad writing.
Which we've already discussed at length and given examples as to why it isn't an accurate reflection of events.
2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:Subordinate who has recently been demoted for disobeying orders resulting in unnecessary deaths and loss of equipment gets in new leader’s face, demanding information he isn’t entitled to.
New leader says, “Okay. Here...be a part of the information you’re not entitled to,” instead of, “Cool your jets and know your role.”
That’s not rewarding bad behavior? That’s not bad leadership?
No. A leader goes here is a task for you to do. No where does it involve telling him the whole plan just what he needs to do the task she needs him to focus on instead of having the time to come up with cockimamy bad plans that will screw up your plan.
Just now, Daeglan said:Or bad leadership that serves no good purpose in the story is bad writing.
The bad writing part was killing Admiral Akbar in an anti-climatic death instead of putting him in the hot seat. Holdo is just a less satisfying stand in for Akbar.
1 minute ago, Vek Baustrade said:Which we've already discussed at length and given examples as to why it isn't an accurate reflection of events.
No you have pointed out stuff you claim is not bad writing. Your claims dont hold up when you consider things like leaders who are admirals should make better leadership decisions. None of the plans make sense given the history of both leaders who know have ALWAYS had to worry about being followed by the empire. But they dont use any of that methodology. The whole fleet jumps to the same location.
1 minute ago, Daeglan said:No. A leader goes here is a task for you to do. No where does it involve telling him the whole plan just what he needs to do the task she needs him to focus on instead of having the time to come up with cockimamy bad plans that will screw up your plan.
Which circles us right back to....
With the information available, what cockamamie bad plan would Poe have been able to predictably put into motion that couldn’t be contained? What part of what she did was predictable? Or, for that matter, would have been impossible to occur if he’d been given busy work?
In your view, do good leaders make a habit of capitulating to subordinates getting in their face the way Poe got in Holdo’s?
Just now, Nytwyng said:Which circles us right back to....
With the information available, what cockamamie bad plan would Poe have been able to predictably put into motion that couldn’t be contained? What part of what she did was predictable? Or, for that matter, would have been impossible to occur if he’d been given busy work?
In your view, do good leaders make a habit of capitulating to subordinates getting in their face the way Poe got in Holdo’s?
and that thinking is what ended up with Holdo commiting suicide because she didnt give Poe a task to occupy him.
1 hour ago, Daeglan said:An ADMIRAL should know
I've only seen the movie once and admittedly slept through part of it, but didn't she get a big promotion because the command staff had just been wiped out? I mean, she didn't even have time to change out of her cocktail dress and into a uniform.
2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:No you have pointed out stuff you claim is not bad writing.
Your claims that something you didn’t care for is bad writing makes it so.
Others using the context of the movie itself to address your concerns, however, means nothing?
4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:and that thinking is what ended up with Holdo commiting suicide because she didnt give Poe a task to occupy him.
Still waiting: what part of the chain of events that led to that was predictable?
3 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:Still waiting: what part of the chain of events that led to that was predictable?
the movie. where a bunch of people end up blown up in shuttles because Poe lead a mutiny because he was not given a task.
what is predictable is Poe acting badly. How he will act badly is not predictable. But it doesnt have to be. You just have to give him a task. Loose cannons are not predictable. Which is why you tie them down.
2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:the movie. where a bunch of people end up blown up in shuttles because Poe lead a mutiny because he was not given a task.
Man, this is how I know you are not arguing in good faith: We literally discussed this two pages ago, and now you're reverting back to it.
Just now, Vek Baustrade said:Man, this is how I know you are not arguing in good faith: We literally discussed this two pages ago, and now you're reverting back to it.
No it really wasnt.
Just now, Daeglan said:No it really wasnt.
So you didn't say Poe didn't get a task and that is why everyone died, then I didn't list of all the stupid stuff Poe does in the movie, which directly caused the problem you're blaming on Holdo?
Just now, Vek Baustrade said:So you didn't say Poe didn't get a task and that is why everyone died, then I didn't list of all the stupid stuff Poe does in the movie, which directly caused the problem you're blaming on Holdo?
This is where leadership comes into play. ALL the stupid **** Poe did should have been nipped in the bud by Poe being given busy work of some sort. Tell you what go talk to someone who has military experience and ask them what they think of what happens in the movie.
1 minute ago, Daeglan said:This is where leadership comes into play. ALL the stupid **** Poe did should have been nipped in the bud by Poe being given busy work of some sort. Tell you what go talk to someone who has military experience and ask them what they think of what happens in the movie.
Because that’s why we like Star Wars. Military protocol and decorum. Poe should have been put on a desk or mop duty to get his act together and not be an active member of the story. Just a cog in the machine.
Just now, darthsylar12 said:Because that’s why we like Star Wars. Military protocol and decorum. Poe should have been put on a desk or mop duty to get his act together and not be an active member of the story. Just a cog in the machine.
Busy work does not need to be story insignificant. But it is where he should have been when Rose and Finn showed up and told him about the tracking. It also would have kept the relationship between Holdo and Poe more open so that he would of gone to Holdo with the new information about Hyperspace Tracking.
1 minute ago, Daeglan said:Busy work does not need to be story insignificant. But it is where he should have been when Rose and Finn showed up and told him about the tracking. It also would have kept the relationship between Holdo and Poe more open so that he would of gone to Holdo with the new information about Hyperspace Tracking.
So Poe’s mopping corridors instead of sitting by Leia’s bedside. How does this negate him sending Rose and Finn off just like he did? How does anything short of Holdo fully capitulating to Poe’s insubordinate demands deter him from trying to prove he’s the Big D@mn Hero by saving the day?
4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Busy work does not need to be story insignificant. But it is where he should have been when Rose and Finn showed up and told him about the tracking. It also would have kept the relationship between Holdo and Poe more open so that he would of gone to Holdo with the new information about Hyperspace Tracking.
And completely removing Poe's story arc and character growth.
Just now, Nytwyng said:So Poe’s mopping corridors instead of sitting by Leia’s bedside. How does this negate him sending Rose and Finn off just like he did? How does anything short of Holdo fully capitulating to Poe’s insubordinate demands deter him from trying to prove he’s the Big D@mn Hero by saving the day?
So now you ignore what I have already said on this multiples times. Go read what I would have had the story do again.
Just now, Vek Baustrade said:And completely removing Poe's story arc and character growth.
No it does not.
4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Busy work does not need to be story insignificant. But it is where he should have been when Rose and Finn showed up and told him about the tracking. It also would have kept the relationship between Holdo and Poe more open so that he would of gone to Holdo with the new information about Hyperspace Tracking.
So you’re saying the hotshot maverick pilot of the Resistance. One who defined a direct order from General Leia herself would be content to do menial work just so he can get brown nose to command and play by the rules. Yeah, that’s a character I can look up. I’m sure everyone on the playground the next day will fighting over who gets to be Poe, the good little soldier, Dameron.
Just now, darthsylar12 said:So you’re saying the hotshot maverick pilot of the Resistance. One who defined a direct order from General Leia herself would be content to do menial work just so he can get brown nose to command and play by the rules. Yeah, that’s a character I can look up. I’m sure everyone on the playground the next day will fighting over who gets to be Poe, the good little soldier, Dameron.
and there you go also ignoring what I said.
6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:So now you ignore what I have already said on this multiples times. Go read what I would have had the story do again.
Oh, I did. You had it ignore Poe’s established character, and eliminate his arc in the story.