1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:Of course it's the woman's fault when a man fails hard at his job.
Heaven forbid I hold a female leader to the same standards a male leader should be held to. A leader should be able to reprimand without bruising egos and should inspire confidence she has a plan and that plan is a good one. . She does neither of those.
1 minute ago, Daeglan said:She causes her best fighter pilot to go against her. That is a glaring example of not inspiring trust.
You did see that I pointed out that Poe and a small group did fit that description, right?
3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:And a good leader can reprimand with out bruising egos.
“Can,” yes. Depending on the ego in question, though, that doesn’t always mean “will.” In this case, we’re talking about an ego that defied Leia, trusting that the results of ignoring her direct orders would shield him from any repercussions.
5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:This is bad. This is the kind of crap an admiral should not have happen.
So now, everyone should react the same as everyone else. That’s not “bad writing.” But characters reacting as individuals, consistent with their characterization is.
7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Neither character is acting in a manner that makes sense for the kind of characters they are.
How so?
Poe is acting like a hotshot hothead who thinks that (to quote Leia) every problem can be solved by jumping in an X-wing and blowing stuff up.
Holdo is acting like a commander placed in charge in an emergency situation, being confronted by a subordinate who was just demoted for insubordination and now demands to be privy to her every decision.
6 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:You did see that I pointed out that Poe and a small group did fit that description, right?
“Can,” yes. Depending on the ego in question, though, that doesn’t always mean “will.” In this case, we’re talking about an ego that defied Leia, trusting that the results of ignoring her direct orders would shield him from any repercussions.
So now, everyone should react the same as everyone else. That’s not “bad writing.” But characters reacting as individuals, consistent with their characterization is.
How so?
Poe is acting like a hotshot hothead who thinks that (to quote Leia) every problem can be solved by jumping in an X-wing and blowing stuff up.
Holdo is acting like a commander placed in charge in an emergency situation, being confronted by a subordinate who was just demoted for insubordination and now demands to be privy to her every decision.
you did. But we dont really see the other characters. We see the main characters not having trust. And that speaks to her leadership abilities lacking.
Can yes didnt and has a plan that amounts to the same result as Poe's plan which ultimately results in all that is left of the resistance is a what fits in the Falcon. That is a glaring example of REALLY REALLY bad leadership.
Yes Poe is. And the Admiral should have the leadership skills to know how to keep them in line and use their skills. And yes he want to be privy to the plans. And a good leader would know that if you dont clue him in he WILL act on his own in a counter productive manner. Which we see in action in the movie. Which shows the Admiral does not have the leadership skills a admiral should have.
1 minute ago, Daeglan said:Heaven forbid I hold a female leader to the same standards a male leader should be held to. A leader should be able to reprimand without bruising egos and should inspire confidence she has a plan and that plan is a good one. . She does neither of those.
Poe is the one responsible for his own ego being bruised. He demanded she tell him what she planned to do. She reminded him of his current position, and that he was not entitled to that information. When Rose and Finn brought their information to him, he saw another opportunity to, instead of being a leader, be a Big D@mn Hero, and to blazes with the chain Ornela command...consistent with his earlier actions.
And, given that the bulk of the crew did not participate in Poe’s mutiny, it would tend to suggest that she did, in fact, inspire confidence (including inspiring that confidence in the leader of the Resistance, who sided with her).
Just now, Nytwyng said:Poe is the one responsible for his own ego being bruised. He demanded she tell him what she planned to do. She reminded him of his current position, and that he was not entitled to that information. When Rose and Finn brought their information to him, he saw another opportunity to, instead of being a leader, be a Big D@mn Hero, and to blazes with the chain Ornela command...consistent with his earlier actions.
And, given that the bulk of the crew did not participate in Poe’s mutiny, it would tend to suggest that she did, in fact, inspire confidence (including inspiring that confidence in the leader of the Resistance, who sided with her).
Sure. But a leader know how to handle someone like Poe. And an admiral absolutely needs to handle Poe in a way that will prevent him from screwing up their plans. Because boy does he screw up her plans because she handled him poorly. And the result was massive waste. Not to mention her plan resulted in catastrophic losses all on its own.
How did the Rise of the Separatists Release Date turn into a debate about the new movies?
3 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:How did the Rise of the Separatists Release Date turn into a debate about the new movies?
34 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Heaven forbid I hold a female leader to the same standards a male leader should be held to. A leader should be able to reprimand without bruising egos and should inspire confidence she has a plan and that plan is a good one. . She does neither of those.
You're holding the male character to a much lower standard and pin his failures on her.
You're so transparent it's not even funny.
5 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:You're holding the male character to a much lower standard and pin his failures on her.
You're so transparent it's not even funny.
No i am not. I am pinning her failures of leadership on her. Because a good leader would know how to head Poe's bad behavior off at the pass. And I expect someone at the leadership level of Admiral to know that. Her bad leadership decisions resulted in a hot headed hotshot pilot to act like a hotheaded hotshot pilot.
17 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:How did the Rise of the Separatists Release Date turn into a debate about the new movies?
If Daeglan disagrees with or dislikes something, it's bad writing. If something goes unexplained, he feels he is owed an answer, which, in fairness, the EU has conditioned him to believe. Everything must be explained or it is bad writing. Also, he seems to think characters should never make suboptimal decisions because that is bad writing. As we all know, people never make suboptimal decisions in fiction or reality.
24 minutes ago, Daeglan said:you did. But we dont really see the other characters. We see the main characters not having trust. And that speaks to her leadership abilities lacking.
We see exactly one main character not having trust in her. We see two others - one who knows exactly two people in the Resistance - follow his instructions without making an opinion of Holdo known. And we see one main character drag herself from the med bay to stun Poe in support of Holdo.
34 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Can yes didnt and has a plan that amounts to the same result as Poe's plan which ultimately results in all that is left of the resistance is a what fits in the Falcon. That is a glaring example of REALLY REALLY bad leadership.
So you’re assessing her plan based upon what happened after Poe tossed a Spanner in the works and totally derailed it. Without his interference, ultimately the First Order isn’t made aware of the smaller ships escape attempt, far more survive, and then proceed to regroup.
23 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Sure. But a leader know how to handle someone like Poe. And an admiral absolutely needs to handle Poe in a way that will prevent him from screwing up their plans. Because boy does he screw up her plans because she handled him poorly. And the result was massive waste. Not to mention her plan resulted in catastrophic losses all on its own.
Not giving someone the details of a plan normally goes a long way towards them not screwing it up. What would cause any leader to remotely suspect that a loose ally and a mechanic would sneak off and end up with a double-crossing criminal who would hear the plan over open comms and trade that information for escape? Poe’s normal course of action is far more direct, so why would anyone expect that sort of subterfuge from him?
2 minutes ago, Vek Baustrade said:If Daeglan disagrees with or dislikes something, it's bad writing. If something goes unexplained, he feels he is owed an answer, which, in fairness, the EU has conditioned him to believe. Everything must be explained or it is bad writing. Also, he seems to think characters should never make suboptimal decisions because that is bad writing. As we all know, people never make suboptimal decisions in fiction or reality.
No I expect character to make decisions that make sense for the character. An ADMIRAL should know enough about leading people to know how to lead a character like Poe in a manner that results in him behaving in a manner they expect. She didn't do so and that seems out of place for a character who has been leading people well enough to become an admiral. But then completely fails at leading Poe? Does that make sense at all? Poe's Character acted in an expected manner. Holdo should have seen this as a likely outcome and acted in a manner to direct Poe in a manner to make him useful instead of leaving the lose cannon loose.
2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:We see exactly one main character not having trust in her. We see two others - one who knows exactly two people in the Resistance - follow his instructions without making an opinion of Holdo known. And we see one main character drag herself from the med bay to stun Poe in support of Holdo.
So you’re assessing her plan based upon what happened after Poe tossed a Spanner in the works and totally derailed it. Without his interference, ultimately the First Order isn’t made aware of the smaller ships escape attempt, far more survive, and then proceed to regroup.
Not giving someone the details of a plan normally goes a long way towards them not screwing it up. What would cause any leader to remotely suspect that a loose ally and a mechanic would sneak off and end up with a double-crossing criminal who would hear the plan over open comms and trade that information for escape? Poe’s normal course of action is far more direct, so why would anyone expect that sort of subterfuge from him?
No not giving a hotheaded hotshot pilot like Poe a task and no indication of a plan did the exact opposite. It caused Poe to act out in a way that completely ****** up her plan and resulted in how many deaths because the first order discovered their shuttles. (not that the First Order missing them in the first place made a lick of sense. )
13 minutes ago, Daeglan said:No i am not. I am pinning her failures of leadership on her. Because a good leader would know how to head Poe's bad behavior off at the pass. And I expect someone at the leadership level of Admiral to know that. Her bad leadership decisions resulted in a hot headed hotshot pilot to act like a hotheaded hotshot pilot.
Ah, it's the woman's fault for not stopping the man's bad impulses.Yeah, where have I heard that before...
1 minute ago, Daeglan said:No not giving a hotheaded hotshot pilot like Poe a task and no indication of a plan did the exact opposite. It caused Poe to act out in a way that completely ****** up her plan and resulted in how many deaths because the first order discovered their shuttles. (not that the First Order missing them in the first place made a lick of sense. )
What task should she give him?
The fighter complement was destroyed.
5 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:What task should she give him?
The fighter complement was destroyed.
I dont know what needed to be done. So I cant say. But leaving him with no task resulted in a whole lot of needless deaths because he acted in a predictable fashion to no indication of a plan. He is a pilot so maybe task him with flying a shuttle.
9 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:Ah, it's the woman's fault for not stopping the man's bad impulses.Yeah, where have I heard that before...
Wow you dont know anything about leadership do you? A leader brings out the best in their people. Not the worst. Holding her accountable for bad leadership is fair. You only object because I am holding her accountable for her bad leadership that resulted in a lot of lost lives.
1 minute ago, Daeglan said:Wow you dont know anything about leadership do you? A leader brings out the best in their people. Not the worst. Holding her accountable for bad leadership is fair. You only object because I am holding her accountable for her bad leadership that resulted in a lot of lost lives.
What makes military officers are decent leaders? Our real military if full of careerist officers the troops can't stand.
1 minute ago, Eoen said:What makes military officers are decent leaders? Our real military if full of careerist officers the troops can't stand.
Sure. How many of them reach the rank of Admiral?
Just now, Daeglan said:Sure. How many of them reach the rank of Admiral?
The ones with connections.
4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:I dont know what needed to be done. So I cant say. But leaving him with no task resulted in a whole lot of needless deaths because he acted in a predictable fashion to no indication of a plan. He is a pilot so maybe task him with flying a shuttle.
So, to be clear, it's bad leadership to not provide Poe a task, to prevent him from committing mutiny, but you don't know what might be a good choice? She should've anticipated mutiny, made sure she spent her time keeping little Poe busy so he wouldn't be naughty, rather than enacting her plan to save those whom she could?
Sounds like bad writing.
Just now, Eoen said:The ones with connections.
Seems less likely in a small force like the resistance
Just now, Vek Baustrade said:So, to be clear, it's bad leadership to not provide Poe a task, to prevent him from committing mutiny, but you don't know what might be a good choice? She should've anticipated mutiny, made sure she spent her time keeping little Poe busy so he wouldn't be naughty, rather than enacting her plan to save those whom she could?
Sounds like bad writing.
So your premise is the smart move was to leave the loose cannon to behave like a loose cannon and completely screw up your plans? That sounds like terrible leadership that gets a bunch of people needlessly killed. That could have been easily prevented with a little forethought. Something I expect from an Admiral.
5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Seems less likely in a small force like the resistance
Holdo came up through the New Republic Navy, the new Republic is so factious they have political groups who actively support the first order in their government, at least before Starkiller base decapitated the government. Also Holdo just assumed command she hadn't even met the senior staff of the Raddas before taking command she can't have insight on many of the crews personalities.
Edited by Eoen3 minutes ago, Vek Baustrade said:So, to be clear, it's bad leadership to not provide Poe a task, to prevent him from committing mutiny, but you don't know what might be a good choice? She should've anticipated mutiny, made sure she spent her time keeping little Poe busy so he wouldn't be naughty, rather than enacting her plan to save those whom she could?
Sounds like bad writing.
So when Poe acted out and it killed several shuttle loads of people that could have been prevented you call that good leadership. Glad you arent leading me.