39 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No. What I pointed out are things that don't make sense in character. Like we are all gonna die if we don't get out from under the thumb of the first order. So I am not going to do anything that will improve the odds. just get this random hacker who might defeat the tracking. Not gonna call for help? Not get fuel. Meanwhile Leia who had been in the Rebel Alliance for how long? Who used to have the rebel alliance scatter to avoid tracking doesn't use that trick? No they choose to sacrifice the fleet. It isn't that the choices are sub optimal. It is that they are out right stupid decisions that make no sense militarily. If someone is an admiral they should make better decisions. Add to that that Rose knows about how the tracking works but Holdo doesn't? really? I just don't buy it.

Rose speculated how the tracking might work, because she's a mechanic. Holdo is not a mechanic, and wasn't even aware there was tracking being done until Rose and Finn had fled. From Holdo's perspective, hyperspace tracking was impossible, and there was probably a spy onboard.

The fleet did partially scatter. Several ships from Episode VII (black squadron) did not accompany the group in VIII, and were part of the allies that Leia hoped to contact.

The reason the Resistance didn't call for aid from the Raddus was because the First Order would naturally notice the outgoing transmission, and expect back up to arrive. The Resistance's plan was to hide out on Crait, wait for the First Order to pass them by, then contact for help once the First Order wasn't following right behind them.

This is all very clearly spelled out in the movie.

2 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Rose speculated how the tracking might work, because she's a mechanic. Holdo is not a mechanic, and wasn't even aware there was tracking being done until Rose and Finn had fled. From Holdo's perspective, hyperspace tracking was impossible, and there was probably a spy onboard.

The fleet did partially scatter. Several ships from Episode VII (black squadron) did not accompany the group in VIII, and were part of the allies that Leia hoped to contact.

The reason the Resistance didn't call for aid from the Raddus was because the First Order would naturally notice the outgoing transmission, and expect back up to arrive. The Resistance's plan was to hide out on Crait, wait for the First Order to pass them by, then contact for help once the First Order wasn't following right behind them.

This is all very clearly spelled out in the movie.

And they wouldnt notice the ongoing call from the planet? yeah the problem is they were losing ships left and right...So while the plan is explained it doesnt make sense at all militarily. It smacks of idiotic thinking. Which an admiral should be doing...

Hoo boy...here we go.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

No but doing things that dont make sense does make it bad writing. For example Finn and Rose were able to leave the fleet to find a hacker. But they dont contact anyone to A. get fuel. B. get help.

A. Fuel wasn't the more pressing matter...being tracked was. Eliminate the tracking, and the fleet can escape then refuel at leisure.

B. From who?

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Holdo Doesnt tell Poe the plan which results in a mutiny.

Holdo doesn't tell someone who was just demoted out of the command staff what the plan is, you're absolutely right. What you're saying here is that you find Holdo's following protocol to be responsible for Poe's breach of discipline.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

They Resistance Sacrifices their entire fleet to end up on a planet to be able to call for help... So what that tells me is the flagship doesnt have long range communications? WTF?

No, what it tells you is exactly what they said the plan was: go to Crait not just to call for help, but to wait out the First Order passing them by. Holdo's plan was pretty clearly spelled out: take the small ships to the surface, letting the First Order waste time and energy following the large ships. Poe, Finn, and Rose going rogue trashed that plan, tipping the First Order off that the Resistance knew how they were being followed and were evacuating in the smaller ships.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

All the threadfs that JJ left in EP VII for the next movie were effectively discarded. In none of the movie or the books do they explain how we go from return of the Jedi to the Force Awakens.

Except they weren't. "none of the movie or books" cover that material? I suppose you're right.

Except for Marvel's Shattered Empire mini-series.

And Lost Stars.

And the campaign mode of Battlefront II.

And Aftermath.

And Aftermath: Life Debt.

And Aftermath: Empire's End.

And Bloodline.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Who is Snoke? Where did the First Order come from?

Welcome to 1977. Who is "the Emperor?" Where did the Empire come from?

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

How the **** did they get a feet so big they could effectively conquer everything with no one noticing?

They didn't. They stepped into the power vacuum that they created by destroying Hosnian Prime. Everyone noticed.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Why did the fleet not do what the Rebels used to do all the time scatter then regroup why didnt the fleet immediately jump out when the first order jumped in?

When, exactly, in the movies did the Rebels do that "all the time?"

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

The A wings, and X-wing and those bombers have hyper drives...

And? After Poe's initial stalling tactic, they were ordered back to the Raddus. Only Poe disobeying a direct order kept them out there. If they were expected to be aboard, why would they have rendezvous information?

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

there are so many actions taken by characters for plot reasons that dont make sense character wise. Leia yells at Poe for sacrificing all those shps then they turn around and do the same thing on an even bigger scale?

At the time Leia demoted Poe, they hadn't even been made aware that the First Order was tracking them. After the First Order jumping in and attacking, circumstances changed, and different factors were in place.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Why didnt the First order just keep sending fighters to harass the resistance fleet.

Why waste the resources?

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

This is all terrible writing.

No, it's all writing that you didn't care for. It is, however, internally consistent within the movie itself, and the franchise as a whole. Your not liking it doesn't make it terrible writing.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

No it is terrible writing for them to punish him for doing the same thing they are about to do. Poe sacrificed a squadron to destroy a huge ship. Then Holdo and Company are gonna sacrifice the whole fleet to accomplish nothing.

But he wasn't punished "for the same thing they are about to do." As noted above, Poe's demotion comes before the First Order's arrival, the conclusion that the Resistance fleet is being tracked by unknown means, before Leia is incapacitated, and before Holdo has to put together an alternative plan in the moment with the resources on hand.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

I dont buy the resistance flagship not being able to make the call. That is dumb. That is bad writing.

It's also something that you've made up. It's not once stated that the Raddus couldn't make the call.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

And the fact Rose and Finn were able to leave the fleet and come back unnoticed? Really?

Really. They left in a ship of the same basic type that was shown to be off the First Order's radar, literally and figuratively. They returned in a ship that had a slicer actively disguising its presence and approach. (And even its approach to the Supremacy isn't entirely unnoticed...there's a flicker in the Supremacy's sensors that the sensor tech appears to interpret as a glitch in the display.)

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

And you didnt think a refueling vessel might be a good idea while you were out?

Ignoring, for the moment, that the more pressing matter was eliminating the tracking, I'm sure there's plenty of refueling vessels that can top off multiple capital ships (while under fire) just laying around where just any ol' Tom, ****, Harry, Resistance mechanic, or former stormtrooper can call one up.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Or help

Help from...?

The people who didn't answer Leia's call for help? But they'd respond if a lower decks mechanic or an expatriate stormtrooper asked?

For someone who's up in arms, claiming that those of us responding to your points are "focusing on minor points," you're sure picking some nits yourself...and given that most, if not all, of the answers to those nits are right there on the screen for all to see, it's a bit perplexing.

I keep asking...where does this deep seated need to try to find some sort of universal, objective fault to justify just not caring for a movie? It's one thing to say, "I didn't like the movie, for these reasons. These things just didn't work for me...they rang false." But to insist that they absolutely must be inherent flaws in the movie's construction is...odd. Is it because you're so invested in the property as a whole? I mean, if so, I can kind of understand. I've had a strong preference for DC's comics over any other publisher's for close to 40 years now. I find the current DC movie franchise to be...disappointing...to say the least. And, I can be quite passionate about it. And, I can point out, in great detail, what I don't like about them, why I don't like those elements, and so forth. But, one of the few things I'll state as an outright, objective fact about why I don't like them stems from a statement made on the record by Zack Snyder, in which he outright says that he doesn't understand the altruism inherent in characters like Superman. He said it...not me, but I can certainly say that this lack of understanding comes through loud and clear on the screen.

If everything that doesn't appeal to someone's taste is "terrible writing," then there's no good writing on the planet, because there's not a single story past, present, or future that satisfies everyone.

Frak...my dad hates The Princess Bride, and if ever there was a frontrunner for universally agreed upon as being a perfect movie....

1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

Hoo boy...here we go.

A. Fuel wasn't the more pressing matter...being tracked was. Eliminate the tracking, and the fleet can escape then refuel at leisure.

B. From who?

Holdo doesn't tell someone who was just demoted out of the command staff what the plan is, you're absolutely right. What you're saying here is that you find Holdo's following protocol to be responsible for Poe's breach of discipline.

No, what it tells you is exactly what they said the plan was: go to Crait not just to call for help, but to wait out the First Order passing them by. Holdo's plan was pretty clearly spelled out: take the small ships to the surface, letting the First Order waste time and energy following the large ships. Poe, Finn, and Rose going rogue trashed that plan, tipping the First Order off that the Resistance knew how they were being followed and were evacuating in the smaller ships.

Except they weren't. "none of the movie or books" cover that material? I suppose you're right.

Except for Marvel's Shattered Empire mini-series.

And Lost Stars.

And the campaign mode of Battlefront II.

And Aftermath.

And Aftermath: Life Debt.

And Aftermath: Empire's End.

And Bloodline.

Welcome to 1977. Who is "the Emperor?" Where did the Empire come from?

They didn't. They stepped into the power vacuum that they created by destroying Hosnian Prime. Everyone noticed.

When, exactly, in the movies did the Rebels do that "all the time?"

And? After Poe's initial stalling tactic, they were ordered back to the Raddus. Only Poe disobeying a direct order kept them out there. If they were expected to be aboard, why would they have rendezvous information?

At the time Leia demoted Poe, they hadn't even been made aware that the First Order was tracking them. After the First Order jumping in and attacking, circumstances changed, and different factors were in place.

Why waste the resources?

No, it's all writing that you didn't care for. It is, however, internally consistent within the movie itself, and the franchise as a whole. Your not liking it doesn't make it terrible writing.

But he wasn't punished "for the same thing they are about to do." As noted above, Poe's demotion comes before the First Order's arrival, the conclusion that the Resistance fleet is being tracked by unknown means, before Leia is incapacitated, and before Holdo has to put together an alternative plan in the moment with the resources on hand.

It's also something that you've made up. It's not once stated that the Raddus couldn't make the call.

Really. They left in a ship of the same basic type that was shown to be off the First Order's radar, literally and figuratively. They returned in a ship that had a slicer actively disguising its presence and approach. (And even its approach to the Supremacy isn't entirely unnoticed...there's a flicker in the Supremacy's sensors that the sensor tech appears to interpret as a glitch in the display.)

Ignoring, for the moment, that the more pressing matter was eliminating the tracking, I'm sure there's plenty of refueling vessels that can top off multiple capital ships (while under fire) just laying around where just any ol' Tom, ****, Harry, Resistance mechanic, or former stormtrooper can call one up.

Help from...?

The people who didn't answer Leia's call for help? But they'd respond if a lower decks mechanic or an expatriate stormtrooper asked?

For someone who's up in arms, claiming that those of us responding to your points are "focusing on minor points," you're sure picking some nits yourself...and given that most, if not all, of the answers to those nits are right there on the screen for all to see, it's a bit perplexing.

I keep asking...where does this deep seated need to try to find some sort of universal, objective fault to justify just not caring for a movie? It's one thing to say, "I didn't like the movie, for these reasons. These things just didn't work for me...they rang false." But to insist that they absolutely must be inherent flaws in the movie's construction is...odd. Is it because you're so invested in the property as a whole? I mean, if so, I can kind of understand. I've had a strong preference for DC's comics over any other publisher's for close to 40 years now. I find the current DC movie franchise to be...disappointing...to say the least. And, I can be quite passionate about it. And, I can point out, in great detail, what I don't like about them, why I don't like those elements, and so forth. But, one of the few things I'll state as an outright, objective fact about why I don't like them stems from a statement made on the record by Zack Snyder, in which he outright says that he doesn't understand the altruism inherent in characters like Superman. He said it...not me, but I can certainly say that this lack of understanding comes through loud and clear on the screen.

If everything that doesn't appeal to someone's taste is "terrible writing," then there's no good writing on the planet, because there's not a single story past, present, or future that satisfies everyone.

Frak...my dad hates The Princess Bride, and if ever there was a frontrunner for universally agreed upon as being a perfect movie....

well the plan was to call for help soooo apparently they were gonna call someone....

And none of those books explained where the first order came from. I have them all.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

well the plan was to call for help soooo apparently they were gonna call someone....

The plan.

That Finn & Rose didn't know, because they only confided in someone who knew there was a plan, didn't know what the plan was, and insisted that they not confide in the command structure?

That plan?

Let's assume they did know the plan was to call for help.

Those same people didn't respond to a distress call with Leia's personal code. Why would they be expected to respond to a lower decks mechanic and someone who was an enemy soldier until a week or so ago?

Who were they gonna call?

Ghostbusters?

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

And the capital ships are not the actual threat.

Oh... so they use the RPG rules now? 😉

23 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

The plan.

That Finn & Rose didn't know, because they only confided in someone who knew there was a plan, didn't know what the plan was, and insisted that they not confide in the command structure?

That plan?

Let's assume they did know the plan was to call for help.

Those same people didn't respond to a distress call with Leia's personal code. Why would they be expected to respond to a lower decks mechanic and someone who was an enemy soldier until a week or so ago?

Who were they gonna call?

Ghostbusters?

Which are examples of why it doesnt make sense. For example Rose knew about the tracking. But she didnt tell anyone? That makes no sense. This is not how a military behaves.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Which are examples of why it doesnt make sense. For example Rose knew about the tracking. But she didnt tell anyone? That makes no sense. This is not how a military behaves. 

They're not a military. They're a paramilitary.

10 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

They're not a military. They're a paramilitary.

which still acts like military and these people dont.

24 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Which are examples of why it doesnt make sense. For example Rose knew about the tracking. But she didnt tell anyone? That makes no sense. This is not how a military behaves.

She did tell someone. She told Poe. A superior officer. Who gave her an assignment to get around it.

Just now, Nytwyng said:

She did tell someone. She told Poe. A superior officer. Who gave her an assignment to get around it.

and he didnt tell the admiral because he was mutinying because of bad leadership. which doesnt really make sense.

I wonder if Collapse of the Republic is gonna have a Jedi Master specialization to follow up the Jedi career. Probably not, since they'd have to reprint the career list. But clone veteran is getting in so who knows.

17 minutes ago, Dayham said:

I wonder if Collapse of the Republic is gonna have a Jedi Master specialization to follow up the Jedi career. Probably not, since they'd have to reprint the career list. But clone veteran is getting in so who knows.

I would think so. Don't think they would have to re-print the career list since it seems to be designed as a 2 part book set.

I did notice however that the Squad/Squadron rules have been changed from the AoR Gamemaster's kit. Unless these have been changed elsewhere and I've missed them.

27 minutes ago, Dayham said:

I wonder if Collapse of the Republic is gonna have a Jedi Master specialization to follow up the Jedi career. Probably not, since they'd have to reprint the career list. But clone veteran is getting in so who knows.

I am hoping for signature abilities too

1 hour ago, Dayham said:

I think that the odds are fairly high. The last paragraph under the Warriors of Peace in the Jedi career text may give this away. It mentions the progression from padawan to knight and ultimately to master. It could just be fluff, but it gives pretty specific examples for possible master specs.

This may indicate that they’ve already got an outline for the Jedi career that includes one or more master specs.

Honestly, I don’t see the issue with them adding to the Jedi career like they do with career splatbooks. A new spec doesn’t necessitate a reprint of the entire career, not that I’d have any issue with that if they did.

10 minutes ago, AnomalousAuthor said:

I think that the odds are fairly high. The last paragraph under the Warriors of Peace in the Jedi career text may give this away. It mentions the progression from padawan to knight and ultimately to master. It could just be fluff, but it has pretty specific examples for possible master specs.

So what are the other three Jedi specs and the signature Abilities for Jedi and Clone Troopers? Are we getting a Jedi splat?

25 minutes ago, Eoen said:

So what are the other three Jedi specs and the signature Abilities for Jedi and Clone Troopers? Are we getting a Jedi splat?

I’d assume padawan, knight, and master at the very least. No idea what they have in mind for their signature ability or plans for a future splat book. Would love to see one though.

edit: sorry, didnt see the other in “other three Jedi specs.” In the text they mention masters adopting monastic, scholarly, or administrative lives. This could indicate a more knowledge based/social spec. They go onto mention that masters advise the Jedi Order. It just seems to point towards one or more specs that could incorporate those ideas.

5 hours ago, Dayham said:

I wonder if Collapse of the Republic is gonna have a Jedi Master specialization to follow up the Jedi career. Probably not, since they'd have to reprint the career list. But clone veteran is getting in so who knows.

I'd say Jedi Master is a fairly safe bet, to follow the progression from Padawan to Knight to Master. Whether that means they'll reprint Padawan or refer folks to see RotS for the rest of the Jedi career unknown; either option isn't exactly great, almost to the point that perhaps it might have been better to simply print the entire Jedi spec collection (figuring there's 3 of them) in one book.

I doubt they're going to include Signature Abilities for either Jedi or Clone Soldier, but it's not out of the realm of possibility either.

8 hours ago, Daeglan said:

which still acts like military and these people dont.

No, it acts like a paramilitary.

3 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

No, it acts like a paramilitary.

Which acts more military than they did.

Also i am supposed to believe Holdo is an admiral but her leadership skills are so bad she doesnt inspire trust and confidence. She inspires her best fighter pilot to mutiny and with hold important information. That is terrible writing because it is not believable that an admiral would become an admiral while being that bad at leadership. And only having 1 plan to deal with their predicament.

19 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

That's largely because it's not the 70s/80s anymore and expectations are different.

Expectations are definetly different than what it was in 70s/80s. I personnally think that people are expecting way too much now when it comes to geekdom products and maybe taking it a little bit too seriously. Although I saw a video about some critisms Empire Strike Back got in the 80s and there is some similarities with some critisism of The Last Jedi, so it's not something new.

I think that some of the critisims comes from the Legend status of some characters, how they are now too sacred. I'm pretty sure that Rey's piloting skill would not have been such a big deal if she had piloted another ship instead of the Millenium Falcon, because for some, Only Han, Chewie or Lando can possibly pilot the Falcon. Or I'm also pretty sure that the over the top scene in Episode 7 where Poe is seen gunning 7-8 Tie in a row and a Stormtrooper would have been received with a 'F*** Yeah!!!' if it would have been Wedge instead in the X-Wing. Pretty sure that a lot (not all, of course) of complaint about The Last Jedi comes from people not being able to accept that Luke was not the superman he was in the old EU so now they have to trash the movie. That if Luke would have been a powerful Jedi Master in The movie, it would not have been trashed as much as it is now.

14 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Which acts more military than they did.

Also i am supposed to believe Holdo is an admiral but her leadership skills are so bad she doesnt inspire trust and confidence. She inspires her best fighter pilot to mutiny and with hold important information. That is terrible writing because it is not believable that an admiral would become an admiral while being that bad at leadership. And only having 1 plan to deal with their predicament.

Of course it's the woman's fault when a man fails hard at his job.

13 hours ago, Daeglan said:

and he didnt tell the admiral because he was mutinying because of bad leadership. which doesnt really make sense.

He didn’t tell Holdo because his ego was bruised. He had yet to mutiny. He was trying once again to be (to borrow from another franchise) a Big D@mn Hero. Welcome to his character arc for the movie: learning to set aside the desire to be a hero in order to be an effective leader.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Which acts more military than they did.

Also i am supposed to believe Holdo is an admiral but her leadership skills are so bad she doesnt inspire trust and confidence. She inspires her best fighter pilot to mutiny and with hold important information. That is terrible writing because it is not believable that an admiral would become an admiral while being that bad at leadership. And only having 1 plan to deal with their predicament.

Nothing in the movie suggests that she doesn’t inspire trust and confidence beyond Poe and a small group. Not only did Poe himself seem impressed with her record and reputation when she took command (until she reminded him of his new position), but his mutiny lasted about five minutes; Holdo and others were able to overpower Poe’s small group in short order while Leia herself got out of her sick bed to side with Holdo and stun Poe.

With the likelihood of a Jedi Master spec in CotR, and specs named 'Clone Veteran' and 'Clone Commander' for the Clone career, I wonder if at least some of these are going to follow the 'gateway/prerequisite' feature of the Knight tree.

Prerequisite Force Rating 3 for Jedi Master perhaps? I wonder what any speculative requisite for a Clone tree could be - at least one rank 5 talent in any other Clone spec perhaps to qualify for 'Veteran'?

31 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

He didn’t tell Holdo because his ego was bruised. He had yet to mutiny. He was trying once again to be (to borrow from another franchise) a Big D@mn Hero. Welcome to his character arc for the movie: learning to set aside the desire to be a hero in order to be an effective leader.

Nothing in the movie suggests that she doesn’t inspire trust and confidence beyond Poe and a small group. Not only did Poe himself seem impressed with her record and reputation when she took command (until she reminded him of his new position), but his mutiny lasted about five minutes; Holdo and others were able to overpower Poe’s small group in short order while Leia herself got out of her sick bed to side with Holdo and stun Poe.

She causes her best fighter pilot to go against her. That is a glaring example of not inspiring trust. And a good leader can reprimand with out bruising egos. This is bad. This is the kind of crap an admiral should not have happen. Neither character is acting in a manner that makes sense for the kind of characters they are. But plot demands they act that way so they do.