5 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

From the sound of things - Donovan’s conversation with Sam at GNC, what someone in another thread on the subject said they were told by someone at the FFG booth at Celebration (they don’t expect it to ship until about another six months), etc - I honestly don’t think they have reliable enough information to even say that right now.

I find 6 months to be questionable. They had the book and were selling it at Celebration so that means the book is ready for prime time. It doesnt take 6 months ship by boat. And the books being at Celebration means the book is printed.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I find 6 months to be questionable. They had the book and were selling it at Celebration so that means the book is ready for prime time. It doesnt take 6 months ship by boat. And the books being at Celebration means the book is printed.

I’m skeptical of the six months estimate, myself (Was that a temp hired for the con or an actual FFG employee? If an actual employee, was it someone in a position to answer reliably or just repeating scuttlebutt - which they shouldn’t have done if that’s the case?), but included it as an example of the available information being wildly inconsistent.

Books being at Celebration means that a (relatively small) quantity has been printed without issue. The person I know who was there went back to get me a copy and was told they’d sold out in the first two hours. That doesn’t speak to the status of the entire print run. With A&A having gone to “Shipping Now” in such short order, while it’s possible that the rest of Rise is sitting in FFG’s warehouse, it doesn’t seem likely.

2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I’m skeptical of the six months estimate, myself (Was that a temp hired for the con or an actual FFG employee? If an actual employee, was it someone in a position to answer reliably or just repeating scuttlebutt - which they shouldn’t have done if that’s the case?), but included it as an example of the available information being wildly inconsistent.

Books being at Celebration means that a (relatively small) quantity has been printed without issue. The person I know who was there went back to get me a copy and was told they’d sold out in the first two hours. That doesn’t speak to the status of the entire print run. With A&A having gone to “Shipping Now” in such short order, while it’s possible that the rest of Rise is sitting in FFG’s warehouse, it doesn’t seem likely.

Short print runs are sooo expensive you dont do them. Most likely they did the full print run then shipped by plane a few pallets. As that is reasonable and the rest you ship by boat.

5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Short print runs are sooo expensive you dont do them. Most likely they did the full print run then shipped by plane a few pallets. As that is reasonable and the rest you ship by boat.

I agree that that’s the most likely possibility, with the next most likely that they may have been proofs, and passed muster to be sold at Celebration. They could also have been a quantity of the initial run (assuming a quality control issue leading to the delay) that was in sellable condition.

Those are possibilities, with the only certainty being that we know a limited quantity was printed, sellable, and available at Celebration.

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

@Khazadune,

If you have actual hard facts about why FFG had copies of RotS at Celebration, then by all means do share them.

Right now, the only thing that's out there is conjecture. Well, conjecture and the generally unconstructive whining about why some folks don't have the book yet.

As for contractual obligations regarding the license, we don't know and frankly as a contract between FFG and Lucasfilm not a single person on these forums has any right to know the specific details. Baring of course their own sense of self-entitlement that is.

For all that's known, Lucasfilm and FFG came to an arrangement that they'd have a certain amount of stock of certain books for sale at Celebration well in advance, quite possibly before RotS wound up being delayed. As further speculation, this possible agreement between FFG and LFL could have been arranged several months ago when arrangements for Celebration were being finalized.

Now, I can't speak for how much you do or don't know about contract law, but generally speaking it's a bad idea to break faith with the company that owns what has been a very profitable license for your company. I can't imagine saying, "Yeah, I know we agreed to have a certain number of these books for sale at Celebration, but we're going to welch on that agreement to fulfill a small number of pre-orders" is going to fly very well with LFL or with Disney for that matter, and after a company deliberately breaks faith, that doesn't leave a very favorable impression. Case in point, EA with their handling of Battlefront II and such the skepticism about if Fallen Order is going to be any different.

Do a bit of research, and you'll find that licensing agreements can very much be subject to the whim of the license holder. For instance, WotC got burned regarding their efforts at a Dune RPG years ago simply because the people in charge of that license had a last-minute change of mind and pretty much revoked it. Or Green Ronin and the hassles/delays they suffered with Dragon Age, especially with the Faces of Thedas supplement. All things considered, LFL is pretty easy to work with, but that doesn't mean there aren't unexpected curveballs, such as the incident I cited regarding WotC and having to do an AotC-themed rulebook.

Seeing as how Star Wars is almost a license to print money, I'd be very surprised if FFG is going to do anything to jeopardize their business relationship with one of the single most powerful media companies on the planet. Especially as there's a number of other RPG companies that are chomping at the bit to score the license for themselves. Heck, the only reason FFG has the license is WotC/Hasbro decided it wasn't profitable enough and chose not to renew it.

As I noted, the whole situation with RotS was a sore spot with Sam, since the book was slated to come out months ago. Given the people that post on these boards don't know the inner workings of FFG's corporate structure, it may well be the decision to have copies of RotS at Celebration was a decision made without any input from Sam regardless of what Disney/LFL did or didn't want in regards to Celebration.

I have a preorder on the book myself (which I don't plan on cancelling, as I consider a couple of their staff and a number of their freelancers as friends and would like to support their efforts), and while I'm upset that I don't have the book yet, I also get that things don't always go smooth, and don't begrudge those who were willing to shell out the substantial amount of cash to Celebration had the chance to get the book before the rest of us. At this point, I'll get the book when I get it.

While FFG hasn't said anything as to the nature of the book's delay or when they expect to have it, neither have they said that they have no plans to not honor the pre-orders once they're able to do so. Then again, I don't know if anyone's tried their Customer Service lines post-Celebration to see if they've got new information they can share.

But again, if you have insider facts about what actually happened to lead to this particular state of affairs, then by all means feel free to share with the rest of us unenlightened masses. Elsewise, it's all conjecture.

Yes it is, so stop speculating that they are required to do something. What I stated, in case it didn't come across clearly, is that contracts are not designed as specifically as you mentioned. How do I know? I review contracts for a living. So your wild speculation is a waste of time and effort. On the other hand, my comments were based in real world fact.

Might they have been asked to provide content and they didn't want to disappoint? It's not a bad supposition to make, considering that is a standard at such conventions for vendors, but no, they wouldn't have been contractually obliged to do so. To do so imagines that someone knew about the existence of the book at the time of licensing, when it would release and that a convention would take place at such an appointed time... which is not just ridiculous speculation, it's wildly absurd. Contracts are specific in terms of provisions but also fluid enough to allow for real world conditions.

6 hours ago, TheBalzan said:

Does the jedi career discuss saber forms at all?

I very much would like to know this too

Right now I have a concept build that goes Padawan, Knight, Outcast, and Armorer (since it's made to fit an already existing character), and Outcast is just there to get Int to Lightsabers

24 minutes ago, TheJack said:

I very much would like to know this too

Right now I have a concept build that goes Padawan, Knight, Outcast, and Armorer (since it's made to fit an already existing character), and Outcast is just there to get Int to Lightsabers

Soresu Defender uses Int for Lightsabers.

Or is it that Outcast also gets a FR increase?

@Khazadune,

So you've got access to the actual contracts that FFG has signed with Lucasfilm regarding not only the license but also the arrangements for this year's Celebration? Which from having worked conventions in the past as well as talking with folks who run and organize conventions both large and small, retailers (like FFG) would need to sign contracts specific to the event.

Otherwise, you're doing just as much speculation as everyone else here. I simply offered a possible alternative to the prevailing theory that FFG had deliberately screwed the people who did preorders simply for the sake of screwing them over in favor of selling their limited stock to random folks at Celebration.

And since FFG isn't likely to be pulling the curtain back on the whys anytime soon, all that's left is speculation on why things turned out as they did. You're free to participate or not at your discretion.

Occam's Razor means I still just blame incompetence for the lateness of the book. Get a better bloody printing company if the current one blows, or don't print it in China to begin with. Genesys isn't, and it hasn't had these issues that keep coming up for Star Wars books. Not having a printing company as a partner that delivers in a reasonable time with reasonable quality is already a fail on FFGs side, not informing us of why the book is taking an age and a half to release is sheer incompetence of their PR department.

9 minutes ago, Silim said:

Occam's Razor means I still just blame incompetence for the lateness of the book. Get a better bloody printing company if the current one blows, or don't print it in China to begin with. Genesys isn't, and it hasn't had these issues that keep coming up for Star Wars books. Not having a printing company as a partner that delivers in a reasonable time with reasonable quality is already a fail on FFGs side, not informing us of why the book is taking an age and a half to release is sheer incompetence of their PR department.

I agree wholeheartedly. The supply chain is clearly at issue.

Wonder if someone wants to tackle a breakdown of what the scavenger Unique talents are all about, specifically exceed specifications (imp and supreme), one persons trash and another's treasure and lastly, improved utility Belt.

7 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

Wonder if someone wants to tackle a breakdown of what the scavenger Unique talents are all about, specifically exceed specifications (imp and supreme), one persons trash and another's treasure and lastly, improved utility Belt.

Do you mean the trees? @RLogue177 has already posted the talent tree pdfs on another thread. https://www.dropbox.com/s/jvkzroneaihi3eq/Spec - Clone Wars Era.pdf?dl=0 or do you mean the long form talent discription?

So, as others have commented a few pages back, any updates on how the Troupe system works?

It's that time of the week again, annnd...

...Oh.

16 hours ago, salamar_dree said:

Soresu Defender uses Int for Lightsabers.

Or is it that Outcast also gets a FR increase?

Yeah, I am currently looking at Outcast for the extra FR, but also because it's a universal spec so it doesn't require me to spend even more experience than I already am on talent trees.

What I was more curious about though is if the Jedi career has any special notes on lightsaber forms, since it's really weird that neither spec in the career has any way of changing what characteristic Lightsaber uses without getting a non-career spec (universal or not). IMO that just flies in the face of the whole idea of jedi lightsaber forms, since the Jedi are obviously the ones who are supposed to be using those in the first place!

It's making me a little extra salty to see Force-Sensitive Outcast get "Outcast Forms", which is a talent that one of the Jedi specs should have had. For example, replace the 2nd Researcher talent in Knight with it... Or perhaps one of the Padawan talents.

16 hours ago, Silim said:

Occam's Razor means I still just blame incompetence for the lateness of the book. Get a better bloody printing company if the current one blows, or don't print it in China to begin with. Genesys isn't, and it hasn't had these issues that keep coming up for Star Wars books. Not having a printing company as a partner that delivers in a reasonable time with reasonable quality is already a fail on FFGs side, not informing us of why the book is taking an age and a half to release is sheer incompetence of their PR department.

Supply chain issues is a huge problem for FFG across all their products.

The problem is three-fold really. First off they want the products to be cheap, which means China. Secondly, they require a certain level of quality, which means they can only work with a limited amount of companies in China. On top of that, the time it takes them to get their hands on proof versions to check for defects seems to be delayed due to international shipping.

Genesys probably got a non-Chinese printing because they were so backlogged in their orders for star wars books that Genesys likely would have had to wait for a 2020 release unless they find another printer to work with, and the only printers that would cut the mustard were outside of China. This likely meant a lower profit margin though, so it's not likely to continue for ongoing product support.

I think lots of us would still be willing to buy the books even if they costed $10 extra if that meant FFG used US printers and could release them reliably.

2 hours ago, TheJack said:

It's making me a little extra salty to see Force-Sensitive Outcast get "Outcast Forms", which is a talent that one of the Jedi specs should have had. For example, replace the 2nd Researcher talent in Knight with it... Or perhaps one of the Padawan talents.

Since Jedi has Knowledge skills as career skills researcher is a totally appropriate talent. The have a giant library in the temple too.

I suspect there’s a list of specs the Jedi can take at a discount in the new book.

5 minutes ago, TheJack said:

Yeah, I am currently looking at Outcast for the extra FR, but also because it's a universal spec so it doesn't require me to spend even more experience than I already am on talent trees.

What I was more curious about though is if the Jedi career has any special notes on lightsaber forms, since it's really weird that neither spec in the career has any way of changing what characteristic Lightsaber uses without getting a non-career spec (universal or not). IMO that just flies in the face of the whole idea of jedi lightsaber forms, since the Jedi are obviously the ones who are supposed to be using those in the first place!

It's making me a little extra salty to see Force-Sensitive Outcast get "Outcast Forms", which is a talent that one of the Jedi specs should have had. For example, replace the 2nd Researcher talent in Knight with it... Or perhaps one of the Padawan talents.

It's worth pointing out that Renegade Form is more expensive on the tree than any of the traditional lightsaber forms (15XP vs. 10XP). It's also worth noting that there's more to a lightsaber form than just using a different attribute to attack with. Forms require a good deal of dedication to fully utilize. For example, one aspect of Shii-Cho is being able to engage multiple oppnents effectively. Renegade Form doesn't cover these aspects. Renegade Form lets them use a different attribute, but it doesn't have all the other perks that come with picking up one of the form trees.

To me, the intent seems to be Outcasts capable of executing a rough facsimile of an actual lightsaber form, while trained Jedi are more focused and specialized in the forms proper.

As for Padawan and Knight not covering the forms, that simply isn't their intent. Padawan and Knight are meant to give the character access to the broad skillset of a true Jedi. Taking other specializations such as Shii-Cho or Seer help inform the character's focus as a Jedi.

10 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Since Jedi has Knowledge skills as career skills researcher is a totally appropriate talent. The have a giant library in the temple too.

I suspect there’s a list of specs the Jedi can take at a discount in the new book.

yeah, I'm not saying Researcher isn't appropriate, but did they need two of them? One would've been enough IMO. Either that, or replace one of the Researcher trees with a more diplomacy oriented one (though they do have Sense Emotions, which is nice).

Maybe replacing the 20 experience Grit talent in the Padawan tree with "Jedi Forms" or something, being equivalent to Outcast Forms.

Underachiever599 has 100% agreement from me on this. The lightsaber form classes are exactly what they are... specializations. Those Jedi who choose to focus on that form have specialized in their chosen form enough to become a master of it. The forms give enough utility to make them stand above and beyond an outcasts ability to plainly utilize an ability other than brawn.

12 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

It's worth pointing out that Renegade Form is more expensive on the tree than any of the traditional lightsaber forms (15XP vs. 10XP). It's also worth noting that there's more to a lightsaber form than just using a different attribute to attack with. Forms require a good deal of dedication to fully utilize. For example, one aspect of Shii-Cho is being able to engage multiple oppnents effectively. Renegade Form doesn't cover these aspects. Renegade Form lets them use a different attribute, but it doesn't have all the other perks that come with picking up one of the form trees.

To me, the intent seems to be Outcasts capable of executing a rough facsimile of an actual lightsaber form, while trained Jedi are more focused and specialized in the forms proper.

As for Padawan and Knight not covering the forms, that simply isn't their intent. Padawan and Knight are meant to give the character access to the broad skillset of a true Jedi. Taking other specializations such as Shii-Cho or Seer help inform the character's focus as a Jedi.

Well yes, but that's just fluff. Fluff can be changed on a whim. I'm fluffing Renegade Forms to be the proper Soresu form, for example. The important part is what it lets you do mechanically, because without that, no fluffing will save you.

And yes, the intent may be to make people take for example Soresu Defender to get Soresu Technique... But then you have to get out-of-career specs which is discouraged by the system, leading to a conflict of intent.

Now, if they just say that "the Jedi career counts any FaD spec as in-career" or something like that, then it's fine, as the career now has a legitimate way to acquire the other forms... It's annoying and not the best implemented, but it's there.

18 minutes ago, TheJack said:

Now, if they just say that "the Jedi career counts any FaD spec as in-career" or something like that, then it's fine, as the career now has a legitimate way to acquire the other forms... It's annoying and not the best implemented, but it's there.

I'm half-expecting this to be the case, to be honest, since so many of the F&D specs are supposed to represent Jedi roles rather than just generic Force User ones. And even if it doesn't, that sounds like a very reasonable house rule to run in your game.

2 minutes ago, Kualan said:

I'm half-expecting this to be the case, to be honest, since so many of the F&D specs are supposed to represent Jedi roles rather than just generic Force User ones. And even if it doesn't, that sounds like a very reasonable house rule to run in your game.

I'm not the GM, so I have no say in houserules =P I would probably pick Outcast anyway, simply because if I'm forced to take another spec for the talent anyway, I might as well grab another Force Rating while there.

1 hour ago, TheJack said:

Well yes, but that's just fluff. Fluff can be changed on a whim. I'm fluffing Renegade Forms to be the proper Soresu form, for example. The important part is what it lets you do mechanically, because without that, no fluffing will save you.

And yes, the intent may be to make people take for example Soresu Defender to get Soresu Technique... But then you have to get out-of-career specs which is discouraged by the system, leading to a conflict of intent.

Now, if they just say that "the Jedi career counts any FaD spec as in-career" or something like that, then it's fine, as the career now has a legitimate way to acquire the other forms... It's annoying and not the best implemented, but it's there.

Taking out of career specs is not discouraged in this system. In fact, it's pretty much expected that you'll inevitably take at least one out of career spec, if not more. Soresu is much more than using Intellect for an attribute. It's a heavily defensive form, meaning lots of Parry and Reflect, as well as multiple other defensive talents. Force-Sensitive Outcast only grants two ranks in Parry and one in Reflect; no other Defensive talents. It's all about offense.