1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

No one is complaining about them. They are complaining about FFGs poor choices and communications. One shouldn't take anger directed at the company as anger towards those who got to buy the book.

1 hour ago, Khazadune said:

Exactly. Those who got the book, good for you, I would have purchased it should it have been available to me. My main concern, as echoed by others, is that if you commit to a pre-order where you have made a practice of and explicitly stated that they are shipped in order of purchase... to arbitrarily change that practice is disingenuous, hurtful and disregards their own established procedures. Should they not have enough for a full release they could a) have released what they had to those who pre-ordered on a first-come-first-served basis, which I think would be as bad as what they have done, or b) wait until stock becomes such that a full release is possible. Should you want to pair your release with an event to boost your profile, great, more people gaming is a good thing, but at least do so while also having begun shipments of pre-orders. This way, although those few in a Chicago get a head start, the others are aware that they haven't been forgotten or sidelined.

There have been a handful of comments along the lines of complaints about "some guy cutting me in line because they could go to a con and I couldn't." Those seem to be more directed at those who purchased the book than at FFG for making it available.

I totally get that it's frustrating that the people at Celebration got - as you put it - a head start, but at the same time, I totally get FFG's perspective about having a high-profile, eagerly-anticipated product available at a con devoted to the product's subject matter. And, I get your perspective here. At the same time, if we presume that they did have to air-ship the limited quantity that was available there, should we really expect them to shrug and say, "Oh well...we went to that expense to get them here in time, but the regular shipment isn't here yet to start shipping pre-orders out. So, let's just chalk that cost of air-shipping off as a loss and leave the books behind?" (Working totally different kinds of conferences for work, I also know that our exhibitor booth and its contents are shipped off to the venues a couple of weeks ahead of time. I wouldn't imagine this would be any different. So, they'd have paid for air-shipping to get the books to the States in time to then pay to have them trucked to Chicago. We try not to ship anything back home that we don't need to, because freight costs by weight.) So, they're d@mned if they do, and d@mned if they don't.

1 hour ago, Khazadune said:

I realize @Nytwyng and @Stan Fresh feel that they are being attacked for having received the product before others, but that's clearly not the case.

Like Stan, I don't have it, and wasn't at Celebration, either. I was workin' my butt off at a science teacher's conference in a completely different city and state.

51 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

There have been a handful of comments along the lines of complaints about "some guy cutting me in line because they could go to a con and I couldn't." Those seem to be more directed at those who purchased the book than at FFG for making it available.

I totally get that it's frustrating that the people at Celebration got - as you put it - a head start, but at the same time, I totally get FFG's perspective about having a high-profile, eagerly-anticipated product available at a con devoted to the product's subject matter. And, I get your perspective here. At the same time, if we presume that they did have to air-ship the limited quantity that was available there, should we really expect them to shrug and say, "Oh well...we went to that expense to get them here in time, but the regular shipment isn't here yet to start shipping pre-orders out. So, let's just chalk that cost of air-shipping off as a loss and leave the books behind?" (Working totally different kinds of conferences for work, I also know that our exhibitor booth and its contents are shipped off to the venues a couple of weeks ahead of time. I wouldn't imagine this would be any different. So, they'd have paid for air-shipping to get the books to the States in time to then pay to have them trucked to Chicago. We try not to ship anything back home that we don't need to, because freight costs by weight.) So, they're d@mned if they do, and d@mned if they don't.

Like Stan, I don't have it, and wasn't at Celebration, either. I was workin' my butt off at a science teacher's conference in a completely different city and state.

Clearly you didn't read my comments or you would have heard me explicitly state the opposite of your interpretation here. No, this is not a toxic fan base turning on each other moment, this is a business making a decision to not support loyal fans and instead to fan service to a few at the cost of the rest. Might there have been a scenario where it cost them money to arrange for conference materials to get here? Yes, it might also be the case that they didn't need to as the book was supposed to have been printed long ago. You don't know and neither do I, so let's not play the presume and then make arguments based upon supposition. Let's look at the fact that they failed to provide a) communication to their fans about any issue with the product b) an expression of their displeasure and their hope to remedy c) an effort to recognize those people who have put forth money long ago on a schedule that has widely been overshot, not for the first time or the second in recent history mind you. This pattern of failing to deliver is worrying enough, but the insult to injury that product is distributed to others merely based on their being "in the right place at the right time" is even more insulting. You can disagree, that's fine. It's my opinion, and clearly the opinion of a few others who rightly feel shafted by this disingenuous process and a company who has continually done so. Defend them if you wish, but it's my opinion that they need to re-evaluate their procedure for printing materials bc clearly the delays, loss of face and expense involved in repeated failed attempts to get a quality product show that something is not working right.

And they could have brought any product to the convention, bring the exclusive product promised to others is a jerk move in any world.

23 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

Clearly you didn't read my comments or you would have heard me explicitly state the opposite of your interpretation here. No, this is not a toxic fan base turning on each other moment, this is a business making a decision to not support loyal fans and instead to fan service to a few at the cost of the rest.

I don't recall saying you made any such posts, but rather, made a general statement that such posts have been made. And they have. Neither did I characterize it as a "toxic fan base turning on each other moment," but just think there's some frustrated people who are taking part of that frustration out on people who got the book.

25 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

Might there have been a scenario where it cost them money to arrange for conference materials to get here? Yes, it might also be the case that they didn't need to as the book was supposed to have been printed long ago. You don't know and neither do I, so let's not play the presume and then make arguments based upon supposition.

There's no "might" about it. Conference facilitating companies like Freeman, Hargrove, and others don't transport materials or set up big booths for free. That's not supposition. Even if FFG personnel do the setup themselves (and that's unlikely, given the size of the booth in the pictures I've seen), getting the actual fixtures, signage, displays, and other contents there costs, and is typically done a couple of weeks in advance. (And, totally agreed...neither is is supposition that it should have been printed some time back, based upon the information provided in the initial announcement and the subsequent articles. You'll get no argument from me that it's been delayed.)

32 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

Let's look at the fact that they failed to provide a) communication to their fans about any issue with the product b) an expression of their displeasure and their hope to remedy c) an effort to recognize those people who have put forth money long ago on a schedule that has widely been overshot, not for the first time or the second in recent history mind you.

It's frustrating, yes, but let's also consider: a) this is not only typical of FFG, but - for better or for worse - many companies. I've told the story before (so I'll keep it brief this time) about the 1.5 years that it took my company to fix a software problem, and during that time, all we were allowed to say was, "We know about the problem, we're working to resolve it, but we don't have an ETA for the resolution." And, from other posts I've seen, that's basically the response people have gotten when they've contacted FFG about the issue, which addresses b. As for c, yeah...there have been totally outrageous delays to the line in the past couple of years. It needs to be resolved. Their supply chain (aka the printers) need to step up their game or be replaced. At the same time, it's not a common business practice to air such internal dirty laundry to the customer base. Typically, a company will try to keep such things as invisible as possible, so we never know if, say, they change printers.

48 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

Defend them if you wish, but it's my opinion that they need to re-evaluate their procedure for printing materials bc clearly the delays, loss of face and expense involved in repeated failed attempts to get a quality product show that something is not working right.

We can definitely agree that the last year or two have shown us that there's something wrong with the supply chain. I was tempted to take advantage of having Sam Gregor-Stewart there at GamerNation Con to bring it up (even before seeing the reaction to Rise being available at Celebration), but thought better of it. Being a first-time attendee at a small con where pretty much everyone knew one another and he's on good terms with the organizers, I figured it wasn't the time or place to say, "Dude, what's up with all of the problems getting Star Wars books out?" With all of the logistics in mind, I can understand the reasoning behind making it available at Celebration while simultaneously understanding the reaction that some like yourself have regarding that decision. If looking at both sides and saying I understand both is defending them, so be it. I've got no skin in this game beyond wanting to get hold of the book just like everyone else. I wasn't at Celebration to get it, and I didn't pre-order. But, I do have a friend who's feeling like some salt is being thrown his way because he did the former (even though he'd also done the latter).

57 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

And they could have brought any product to the convention, bring the exclusive product promised to others is a jerk move in any world.

This part, though, I don't follow. Exactly what "exclusive product promised to others" did they take? Rise? Not exclusive, at least not as I understand it applied to product available at conventions like this. The Lando Hawaiian shirt my GM was unable to secure for me? The Legion Vader mini? Things like that are exclusive (in this context). By extension, being non-exclusive, it wasn't promised to others. But, it's quite likely that we're not applying the same standard there. Which happens from time to time, right?

Anyway, I hope your pre-order arrives soon.

I wonder why they reprinted Enhance and bind in RoTS.

So, I just got word from my FLGS that they've got my copy of A&A ready for pickup on Thursday and they have confirmed copies of Rise from their distributor on order. Their distributor gave no ETA, but "guestimated" it would be a couple more weeks.

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

I don't recall saying you made any such posts, but rather, made a general statement that such posts have been made. And they have. Neither did I characterize it as a "toxic fan base turning on each other moment," but just think there's some frustrated people who are taking part of that frustration out on people who got the book.

There's no "might" about it. Conference facilitating companies like Freeman, Hargrove, and others don't transport materials or set up big booths for free. That's not supposition. Even if FFG personnel do the setup themselves (and that's unlikely, given the size of the booth in the pictures I've seen), getting the actual fixtures, signage, displays, and other contents there costs, and is typically done a couple of weeks in advance. (And, totally agreed...neither is is supposition that it should have been printed some time back, based upon the information provided in the initial announcement and the subsequent articles. You'll get no argument from me that it's been delayed.)

It's frustrating, yes, but let's also consider: a) this is not only typical of FFG, but - for better or for worse - many companies. I've told the story before (so I'll keep it brief this time) about the 1.5 years that it took my company to fix a software problem, and during that time, all we were allowed to say was, "We know about the problem, we're working to resolve it, but we don't have an ETA for the resolution." And, from other posts I've seen, that's basically the response people have gotten when they've contacted FFG about the issue, which addresses b. As for c, yeah...there have been totally outrageous delays to the line in the past couple of years. It needs to be resolved. Their supply chain (aka the printers) need to step up their game or be replaced. At the same time, it's not a common business practice to air such internal dirty laundry to the customer base. Typically, a company will try to keep such things as invisible as possible, so we never know if, say, they change printers.

We can definitely agree that the last year or two have shown us that there's something wrong with the supply chain. I was tempted to take advantage of having Sam Gregor-Stewart there at GamerNation Con to bring it up (even before seeing the reaction to Rise being available at Celebration), but thought better of it. Being a first-time attendee at a small con where pretty much everyone knew one another and he's on good terms with the organizers, I figured it wasn't the time or place to say, "Dude, what's up with all of the problems getting Star Wars books out?" With all of the logistics in mind, I can understand the reasoning behind making it available at Celebration while simultaneously understanding the reaction that some like yourself have regarding that decision. If looking at both sides and saying I understand both is defending them, so be it. I've got no skin in this game beyond wanting to get hold of the book just like everyone else. I wasn't at Celebration to get it, and I didn't pre-order. But, I do have a friend who's feeling like some salt is being thrown his way because he did the former (even though he'd also done the latter).

This part, though, I don't follow. Exactly what "exclusive product promised to others" did they take? Rise? Not exclusive, at least not as I understand it applied to product available at conventions like this. The Lando Hawaiian shirt my GM was unable to secure for me? The Legion Vader mini? Things like that are exclusive (in this context). By extension, being non-exclusive, it wasn't promised to others. But, it's quite likely that we're not applying the same standard there. Which happens from time to time, right?

Anyway, I hope your pre-order arrives soon.

I can agree with most of that. I would add that my point about supposition was in reference to air mailing the books specifically for the con, not about the con details itself. Also, exclusive in the sense that it is exclusively available at that time, not complete exclusivity period, which thanks to a healthy resale market, nothing ever really is anyways.

I know I'm gonna get a lot of crap for my statement, but FFG should lose their licensing for this mess or at least not get it renewed. They have failed their fans and customers. And it isn't about the people who got the books early. They got it and lucked out. I love the system, but this company as a whole has failed us. Not the writers and not the artist.

It's like if Game Of Thrones season premiere was just postponed because they decided to actually wait till Winter next year to air it to pair it with Winter is coming.

4 minutes ago, Kilcannon said:

I know I'm gonna get a lot of crap for my statement, but FFG should lose their licensing for this mess or at least not get it renewed. They have failed their fans and customers. And it isn't about the people who got the books early. They got it and lucked out. I love the system, but this company as a whole has failed us. Not the writers and not the artist.

It's like if Game Of Thrones season premiere was just postponed because they decided to actually wait till Winter next year to air it to pair it with Winter is coming.

Okay, we're all upset and I get that. I've been waiting on this book for a while so I feel stung too, but calling for the license to be cut? That just seems far too extreme for the situation.

The greatest crime I could pin on FFG is a failure to communicate, but the product is going to be good quality and I wouldn't call pricing egregious, so all in all, its a supply chain error they may not have total control over.

If what else has been said in this thread alone are to be believed, then FFG suffered a severe quality control issue once the books shipped and are having to make the best of a bad situation. Balancing keeping customers happy, products quality, as well has keeping up with the dozen or so other things they do at any given time means that the ball will sometimes be dropped (though not always by them), but I consider this minor compared to what it could potentially be.

As director of my summer camp, we run on what is called the "Duck Model". Ducks move with grace and smoothness on the surface of the water, but under the water there's turbulence, exertion, and chaos. FFG is probably just trying to carry on "business as usual" to appear as though nothing unplanned has occurred, but I would be willing to bet a hefty sum of money that SOMETHING has not gone according to plan.

If you still feel the label should be taken away, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I think they've done a good job with it so far, and I'm willing to be patient and give them benefit of the doubt.

Now back to the topic, how are ya'll going to use Troupe Rules? I'm really excited to get my hands on them and see what shenanigans my guys and I can get up to!

3 hours ago, evo454 said:

Now back to the topic, how are ya'll going to use Troupe Rules? I'm really excited to get my hands on them and see what shenanigans my guys and I can get up to!

[Deleted. Stupid joke. My apologies.]

32 minutes ago, Kilcannon said:

I know I'm gonna get a lot of crap for my statement, but FFG should lose their licensing for this mess or at least not get it renewed. They have failed their fans and customers.

Failing the fans and customers is totally irrelevant when discussing if the license should get pulled. Have they failed Disney? Nope. License is safe.

26 minutes ago, AnomalousAuthor said:

Too soon for a production of Hunchback set in a galaxy far, far away?

That's not a reference to Notre Dame is it? Cause given current events... I feel for you Paris. But we should be counting our blessings because the lives of people are more important than a building. And I'd be saying the same thing if it was the statue of liberty that was going to be out of comission for 3 to 5 years. Btw a church is a community of believers not the building they congregate in.

3 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

That's not a reference to Notre Dame is it? Cause given current events... I feel for you Paris. But we should be counting our blessings because the lives of people are more important than a building. And I'd be saying the same thing if it was the statue of liberty that was going to be out of comission for 3 to 5 years.

Just a smidge... Losing a historical structure like that is a tragedy regardless, but at least nobody was hurt. That’s something we can all be thankful for.

1 hour ago, AnomalousAuthor said:

Too soon for a production of Hunchback set in a galaxy far, far away?

Honestly, not the most sensitive to global issues.

I walked the ramparts of Notre Dame with my wife on our honeymoon and am still horrified at what has taken place. I would join the singers in the streets were I there.

36 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

Honestly, not the most sensitive to global issues.

I walked the ramparts of Notre Dame with my wife on our honeymoon and am still horrified at what has taken place. I would join the singers in the streets were I there.

I was more relieved than anything that it was just a fire. Given the world these days, I had feared the worst when I first heard about it. Losing the structure is saddening. Losing lives would’ve been horrifying.

Anyhow, my comment was more of a joke about the name of the troupe system than anything. My apologies. I recognize it was somewhat insensitive. Let’s return this convo back to Star Wars.

Again, my sincere apologies.

4 hours ago, Jedifish said:

I wonder why they reprinted Enhance and bind in RoTS.

Not every core book has every Force power. So the inclusion would be for those who don't own that product I would suppose.

4 hours ago, evo454 said:

Okay, we're all upset and I get that. I've been waiting on this book for a while so I feel stung too, but calling for the license to be cut? That just seems far too extreme for the situation.

The greatest crime I could pin on FFG is a failure to communicate, but the product is going to be good quality and I wouldn't call pricing egregious, so all in all, its a supply chain error they may not have total control over.

If what else has been said in this thread alone are to be believed, then FFG suffered a severe quality control issue once the books shipped and are having to make the best of a bad situation. Balancing keeping customers happy, products quality, as well has keeping up with the dozen or so other things they do at any given time means that the ball will sometimes be dropped (though not always by them), but I consider this minor compared to what it could potentially be.

As director of my summer camp, we run on what is called the "Duck Model". Ducks move with grace and smoothness on the surface of the water, but under the water there's turbulence, exertion, and chaos. FFG is probably just trying to carry on "business as usual" to appear as though nothing unplanned has occurred, but I would be willing to bet a hefty sum of money that SOMETHING has not gone according to plan.

If you still feel the label should be taken away, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I think they've done a good job with it so far, and I'm willing to be patient and give them benefit of the doubt.

Now back to the topic, how are ya'll going to use Troupe Rules? I'm really excited to get my hands on them and see what shenanigans my guys and I can get up to!

The problem with the duck model is it ends up looking like they are ignoring the issue. Which does not instill confidence. I would prefer the x wing model where they at least acknowledge a problem and give a nee ETA

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

The problem with the duck model is it ends up looking like they are ignoring the issue. Which does not instill confidence. I would prefer the x wing model where they at least acknowledge a problem and give a nee ETA 

Acknowledgement would be great, yeah. Giving a new ETA can be tricky - if one ETA has gone past, giving another that they maybe aren't so sure about will only lead to more annoyance for customers.

2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Acknowledgement would be great, yeah. Giving a new ETA can be tricky - if one ETA has gone past, giving another that they maybe aren't so sure about will only lead to more annoyance for customers.

That and many RPG companies don't provide ETAs beyond what quarter for this very reason, that any number of things could occur to delay the book. WotC and Paizo are large enough that they can give more exact street dates without too much worry, but most other companies go with waiting until the books are in their warehouses before giving a precise street date.

As is, I've come to see FFG's announcements of what quarter a book will be out as a hopeful estimate, with the reality being the book will come out early in the following quarter.

I’d like to know how many of the naysayers/complainers/callers-for-license-cutters are still going to buy this book.

That’s really all that will matter and the only true way to get your opinions about the way FFG does business heard by them. But do you actually have the self control to do it, or is this just the usual hot online air being vented into the ether?

I think you are missing the point of their complaints. Most of them have already bought the book. We preordered it back when it was first introduced and have been waiting (im)patiently for it checking our mailboxes hoping for it to be there and then hear that they sold the books at the convention to people who had not preordered it.

I'm in that category although I am not as frustrated as some people here. The lack of information or updates from FFG is the most irritating part. We now know the book is available and we still haven't received the "it's shipping" email where the book, A&A was introduced months after RoS and it's already shipping.

So, yes, I will continue to buy the books as they come out but we can still be unhappy about how they handled this.

5 minutes ago, Varlie said:

I think you are missing the point of their complaints. Most of them have already bought the book. We preordered it back when it was first introduced and have been waiting (im)patiently for it checking our mailboxes hoping for it to be there and then hear that they sold the books at the convention to people who had not preordered it.

I'm in that category although I am not as frustrated as some people here. The lack of information or updates from FFG is the most irritating part. We now know the book is available and we still haven't received the "it's shipping" email where the book, A&A was introduced months after RoS and it's already shipping.

So, yes, I will continue to buy the books as they come out but we can still be unhappy about how they handled this.

Oh I get the complaints, especially the lack of communication one, which has been an ongoing theme for FFG.

The only solution to get them to correct it is not to buy the book and/or cancel your preorder, and people are going to have to be willing to do that en masse to get FFG to make a change.

I’ve seen it happen before in another game I used to play. In fact, it was a similar issue with convention goers getting better access to stuff (although in this case those who didn’t go to conventions had zero access to this stuff outside of the secondary market). So people complained, online and in person, for YEARS. Nothing changed. Then they started walking away from the game (essentially voicing their disdain with their wallets), and the company had to listen. Now this said game is arguably the best it’s ever been and the company’s policies make sense (which is helped by their newfound communications). Sad thing is, it’s too late and the numbers of players are way down.

So I’m completely in a place of understanding with this and what it’ll take to stop it from happening in the future. I just don’t think anyone else is.

Let me share this little piece of advice - holding a grudge is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die. Feel free to be angry, but you're only hurting your own experience. The rest of us will continue enjoying the amazing content that FFG has continued to produce and have great adventures in a universe we all love. Even if it takes a little longer than we expect, we still have hope it will arrive and will have been worth waiting for. Isn't that what Star Wars is about anyway?

I would like to point out that the RPG is only a small fraction of the income that Lucasfilm and FFG gain from the Star Wars license. Games like X-wing are by far the money making machine of the license, and as long as they are, the license will stay where it is, regardless of how the RPG line is doing.

If you are unhappy with FFG's lack of communication, write, call or email them, but do so politely, and with suggestions of how they can improve things.

I, for one, did email them with a suggestion on the subject, and received a reply that it would be passed on to the correct department. Whether or not anything changes as a result, only time will tell.

This drastically off topic, I know, but with there being four supplements now, do ya'll think adding a separate forum tab for Star Wars Roleplaying Supplements should be added? I'm sure once we have all the books it'll get confusing to have to bounce between all three sub-forums since they don't specifically fit any one of them. I know they did that for the cards.

1 minute ago, evo454 said:

This drastically off topic, I know, but with there being four supplements now, do ya'll think adding a separate forum tab for Star Wars Roleplaying Supplements should be added? I'm sure once we have all the books it'll get confusing to have to bounce between all three sub-forums since they don't specifically fit any one of them. I know they did that for the cards.

I'd go the other way merge all the forums into once place, it's evident it's all the one game, no need to segment discussion.