46 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Where does canon state he's mastered all lightsaber forms?

I don't even think it's canon that he's mastered or prefers Ataru. I've see all of Clone Wars, read all the canon comics with Yoda, seen the movies, listened to most of the books (all that include Yoda). I don't recall ever seeing it mentioned which lightsaber form(s) Yoda specifically prefers or has mastered. Lightsaber forms are barely even mentioned (Kanan comic and Rebels I can recall specifically, don't recall on specific references Clone Wars).

Oh, he’s definitely a master of Ataru. It’s the style he uses throughout both AotC and RotS. As for the others, there’s a whole discussion over in the F&D forums about Juyo’s use during the Old Republic, and Yoda’s Mastery of all of the forms is a heavy part of that discussion. I particular, @TalosX mention several times. Whether it is true or not, I’m not 100% certain, but it does make sense. The movies do establish him as the greatest lightsaber master in the Order.

35 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Oh, he’s definitely a master of Ataru. It’s the style he uses throughout both AotC and RotS. As for the others, there’s a whole discussion over in the F&D forums about Juyo’s use during the Old Republic, and Yoda’s Mastery of all of the forms is a heavy part of that discussion. I particular, @TalosX mention several times. Whether it is true or not, I’m not 100% certain, but it does make sense. The movies do establish him as the greatest lightsaber master in the Order.

So, it's not canon. You seem to have a habit of extrapolating things to extremes (and being very very certain about them. Yoda being mentioned as a lightsaber master in no way implies that he's mastered all lightsaber forms - at least as lightsaber forms have been defined in Legends and in any sense where the sentence "Jedi X is a practitioner of form Y" makes much sense.

Maybe the comics mentioned it (any of it from Ataru, to Yoda using Ataru to Yoda mastering all forms). I'm not claiming it's never said but you sounded so certain I thought you had an actual source in mind. I'd really like to know. I have all the comics at home but I'm not going to take the time tonight to reread or scan all of them.

And saying he's definitely a master of Ataru is your interpretation of the movies. At no time that I'm aware of does anyone say that the style he's using is Ataru. Legends does (I believe, I'm not well versed in Legends). Technically Ataru being a style isn't canonical at this point as I don't know that it's ever mentioned. And is there any canonical source that says not only that Ataru (or Form IV) exists but that it's a style characterized as "acrobatic" etc as Legends defines it?

It could just be that Yoda has an "acrobatic" combat style because everyone he fights is 2-3 times taller than him?

Supposedly Qui-gon (non-canoncially) was also an Ataru practitioner but he doesn't fight like Yoda does.

I could go on (I do have 15 years experience in the martial arts) and while I think the idea of lightsaber styles is interesting and adds cool flavor it gets more silly the more it's examined. I know Nick Gillard thought a lot about the fight sequences he choreographed and each character's style but I don't know if he ever thought of them as specific 'lightsaber' styles (but more of a particalar character's style in handling a lightsaber).

12 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

So, it's not canon. You seem to have a habit of extrapolating things to extremes (and being very very certain about them).

Maybe the comics mentioned it. I'm not claiming it's never said but you sounded so certain. I'd really like to know. I have all the comics at home but I'm not going to take the time tonight to reread or scan all of them. But yes, Yoda being mentioned as a lightsaber master in no way implies that he's mastered all lightsaber forms - at least as lightsaber forms have been defined in Legends and in any sense where the sentence "Jedi X is a practitioner of form Y" makes much sense.

And saying he's definitely a master of Ataru is your interpretation of the movies. At no time that I'm aware of does anyone say that the style he's using is Ataru. Legends does (I believe, I'm not well versed in Legends). Technically Ataru being a style isn't canonical at this point as I don't know that it's ever mentioned. And is there any canonical source that says not only that Ataru (or Form IV) exists but that it's a style characterized as "acrobatic" etc as Legends defines it?

It could just be that Yoda has an "acrobatic" combat style because everyone he fights is 2-3 times taller than him?

Supposedly Qui-gon (non-canoncially) was also an Ataru practitioner but he doesn't fight like Yoda does.

I could go on (I do have 15 years experience in the martial arts) and while I think the idea of lightsaber styles is interesting and adds cool flavor it gets more silly the more it's examined. I know Nick Gillard thought a lot about the fight sequences he choreographed and each character's style but I don't know if he ever thought of them as specific 'lightsaber' styles (but more of a particalar character's style in handling a lightsaber).

As for Ataru’s Current canonisity, you are vastly mistaken Ataru is definitely part of the current canon, and if you check the notable practitioners, you’ll notice a particular little green Jedi Master on that list:

Quote

NOTABLE PRACTITIONERS

• Ezra Bridger[2]
• The Grand Inquisitor[1]
• Aayla Secura[3]
• Anakin Skywalker[2]
• Yoda[4]

Nice, you did find something - an actual canonical reference that actually mentions form IV: Star Wars Rebels. Good to know. Thanks (no, I'm not being sarcastic). I'd forgotten about that scene. From Rebels I only remembered the Inquisitor sizing up Kanan when first meeting him as a practitioner of Form III (and we see Kanan's to-be master teaching/drilling/testing initiates in Form III in the Kanan comic).

Still no info on who had mastered it or who it's practitioners definitely were - of course going on the logic you typically employ Anakin is definitely a practitioner and master (he's teaching it afterall). Or what the form actually entails except it needs adjustments to work against ranged attackers.

3 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Anakin is definitely a practitioner and master (he's teaching it afterall).

He who can does; he who cannot, teaches.

This would imply that Anakin cannot Ataru.

55 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

He who can does; he who cannot, teaches.

Semi related being a good teacher will not get you tenure as a professor at a university, writing grant proposals to do cutting edge research and then publishing papers on it does. Being a professor (engineering, any of the physical sciences really, anyway) is very much about doing and very little about teaching. It is also about mentoring your own research assistants to do research which is kind of like teaching but doesn't involve a classroom, it involves a lab.

So a more accurate expression would be those who can do exceptionally but can't teach both do and teach.

In the Revenge of the Sith book, there are brief discussion between Windu, Yoda and Obi-Wan, why Obi-Wan should go against Grievous. Windu states that Yoda is the master of Ataru, because he compensates his phyisical disadvantages.

I'm not sure the book is considered canon or only the movie, hope this helps.

14 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

So, it's not canon. You seem to have a habit of extrapolating things to extremes (and being very very certain about them. Yoda being mentioned as a lightsaber master in no way implies that he's mastered all lightsaber forms - at least as lightsaber forms have been defined in Legends and in any sense where the sentence "Jedi X is a practitioner of form Y" makes much sense.

Maybe the comics mentioned it (any of it from Ataru, to Yoda using Ataru to Yoda mastering all forms). I'm not claiming it's never said but you sounded so certain I thought you had an actual source in mind. I'd really like to know. I have all the comics at home but I'm not going to take the time tonight to reread or scan all of them.

And saying he's definitely a master of Ataru is your interpretation of the movies. At no time that I'm aware of does anyone say that the style he's using is Ataru. Legends does (I believe, I'm not well versed in Legends). Technically Ataru being a style isn't canonical at this point as I don't know that it's ever mentioned. And is there any canonical source that says not only that Ataru (or Form IV) exists but that it's a style characterized as "acrobatic" etc as Legends defines it?

It could just be that Yoda has an "acrobatic" combat style because everyone he fights is 2-3 times taller than him?

Supposedly Qui-gon (non-canoncially) was also an Ataru practitioner but he doesn't fight like Yoda does.

I could go on (I do have 15 years experience in the martial arts) and while I think the idea of lightsaber styles is interesting and adds cool flavor it gets more silly the more it's examined. I know Nick Gillard thought a lot about the fight sequences he choreographed and each character's style but I don't know if he ever thought of them as specific 'lightsaber' styles (but more of a particalar character's style in handling a lightsaber).

Since @Tramp Graphics called me out, their are several passages in the canon novelizations of "Attack of the Clones" and "Revenge of the Sith" that are pertinent. Yoda was mentioned to have mastered all 7 forms, including stances and techniques. Yoda was also referred to as the grand-master of Ataru (though I'm pretty sure this was word play and not a real title). Now, these comments are in-character dialogue. Meaning that they are only the opinions/beliefs of the speakers. As for Yoda's actual skill, in Attack of the Clones, Dooku initially thought he had surpassed his master in lightsaber skill. However, Dooku's internal monologue quickly changed once the fight began. After the first attack, Dooku was pressed back into a full defensive fight. The book actually says Dooku knew he was fighting for his life, and that he had to escape Yoda before his former master cut him down. During Yoda's duel with Palpatine, the Sith realized from the very beginning that Yoda was the better duelist. It's why he took every opportunity to increase the distance between the two. Because Palpatine was far more confident in engaging Yoda using his force powers. Despite what may or may not have changed about Yoda since Legends material was made non-canon. It's still made quite clear that Yoda is an incredibly skilled duelist.

9 hours ago, Rimsen said:

In the Revenge of the Sith book, there are brief discussion between Windu, Yoda and Obi-Wan, why Obi-Wan should go against Grievous. Windu states that Yoda is the master of Ataru, because he compensates his phyisical disadvantages.

I'm not sure the book is considered canon or only the movie, hope this helps.

It's not canon. But that book does mention lightsaber forms quite a bit. Anakin's fight with Dooku also has a lot of lightsaber form stuff.

Legends stuff is still there it's just that "current" Star Wars works aren't beholden to it. But it's obviously still an inspiration and drawn on for current "canon" material. Lightsaber form stuff has made it's way into new canon in limited ways.

My real issue is with how insistent and inflexible (and confident) some fans get with "well this thing is canon so X, Y, and Z must be" when very little of what they claim actually is canon and most of what they say is canon is their own interpretation and extrapolation. That sort of stuff is fine and part of the fun but when they act like their opinion is bedrock fact and that other fans should see that and respect it and defer to it - that's the problem. This is particularly out of place in a role-playing game where people doing their own thing is a big part of the point.

As an example, several years ago Tramp Graphics and I went back and forth for pages of forum comments arguing about whether Yoda built as a PC had to - absolutely - start in the Consular career. Short retelling: Tramp insisted that yes absolutely, that even if two builds (from Talents, Skills, ranks, motivation, emotional strengh/weakness, everything) were identical that if one of them didn't start Yoda in Consular then that was wrong (because Yoda absolutely had to be a Consular even if there was zero mechanical effect due to canon he couldn't name) and that if he were GM and the game concept was "create a Jedi Council member to play" that he would not allow the player to do that. He even got to the point that he was dictating things to me about my hypothetical force-sensitive doctor character.

I see some of that in this thread. Yeah, you can make a good Yoda PC on 2,500 XP (or more). But it's the insistence that the only true or good Yoda concept is that (and a long list of other specifics that must be there). There's zero flexibility or letting others do the same thing you are. And as I said, in role-playing games this violates the basic social contract at the table.

58 minutes ago, TalosX said:

Since @Tramp Graphics called me out, their are several passages in the canon novelizations of "Attack of the Clones" and "Revenge of the Sith" that are pertinent. Yoda was mentioned to have mastered all 7 forms, including stances and techniques. Yoda was also referred to as the grand-master of Ataru (though I'm pretty sure this was word play and not a real title). Now, these comments are in-character dialogue. Meaning that they are only the opinions/beliefs of the speakers. As for Yoda's actual skill, in Attack of the Clones, Dooku initially thought he had surpassed his master in lightsaber skill. However, Dooku's internal monologue quickly changed once the fight began. After the first attack, Dooku was pressed back into a full defensive fight. The book actually says Dooku knew he was fighting for his life, and that he had to escape Yoda before his former master cut him down. During Yoda's duel with Palpatine, the Sith realized from the very beginning that Yoda was the better duelist. It's why he took every opportunity to increase the distance between the two. Because Palpatine was far more confident in engaging Yoda using his force powers. Despite what may or may not have changed about Yoda since Legends material was made non-canon. It's still made quite clear that Yoda is an incredibly skilled duelist.

It's my understanding that the novelizations are not canon. Not even the novels in the new "canon era" (Force Awakens, Last Jedi) are canon. Lucasfilm has explicitly said that if the novel and movie contradict (which they do) it's the movie that is "canon".

Yes, lots of Legends stuff does mention this. See my previous post.

Thanks for you comment though, it's interesting.

4 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

It's my understanding that the novelizations are not canon. Not even the novels in the new "canon era" (Force Awakens, Last Jedi) are canon. Lucasfilm has explicitly said that if the novel and movie contradict (which they do) it's the movie that is "canon".

Wouldn’t that mean if the movie doesn’t mention it there is no conflict, and there fore it would be de facto canon or at least in a grey area?

54 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Wouldn’t that mean if the movie doesn’t mention it there is no conflict, and there fore it would be de facto canon or at least in a grey area?

Maybe. But I don't think so. But what do I now. The statement I mentioned about new "cannon" era was made when (I think) Force Awakens came out.

I don't know that the stance was or is regarding novelizations of non "new cannon" era films. But in general I thought the novelizations weren't canon. I could be wrong.

The "what is canon" question seems to be the one that most annoys the story team people.

EDIT

Looking at the star wars fandom wiki: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Canon_policy

"Del Rey states that film novelizations, film junior novelizations, and the Star Wars: The Clone Wars film novelization "are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie." Wookieepedia Canon articles treat these novelizations as non-canon Legends material."

So the wiki doesn't treat them as canon. The Del Rey "quote" would indicate why - my memory of the stance was incorrect and their stance is stricter then what I thought: if it's in line with what you see on screen and not "it's canon if it isn't contradicted". Of course some fans can fly a star destroyer through the wide space they see in "align with what is seen on screen". This is also assuming that the wiki quote is accurate.

MORE EDIT

The Del Rey quote is accurate, from a tweet:

"To clarify, movie novelizations are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie."

So does that mean that the thoughts of Dooku about lightsaber forms and Anakin in RotS novelization is canon - i.e., they will editorially push back against writers who might contradict that? Who knows.

@Jedi Ronin It’s my understanding that in order to meet publishing deadlines, the novelizations are based on the script.

10 minutes ago, Eoen said:

@Jedi Ronin It’s my understanding that in order to meet publishing deadlines, the novelizations are based on the script.

And usually not the final shooting scripts, at that. Thus, we get things like Owen Lars being Obi-Wan Kenobi’s brother (in the RotJ novelization) or the gem-studded lightsaber hilt describes in the original Star Wars novelization.

Jumping franchises, the Star Trek II and III novelizations added a Saavik/David Marcus romance, Peter David’s Return of the Swamp Thing novelization added an entire setting and group of characters in an attempt to make some sort of narrative sense of the story, and the Buckaroo Banzai novelization is so chock full of scenes and information not in the movie that you’d never think in a million years that the same person wrote the movie and novelization...but he did.

54 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

And usually not the final shooting scripts, at that. Thus, we get things like Owen Lars being Obi-Wan Kenobi’s brother (in the RotJ novelization) or the gem-studded lightsaber hilt describes in the original Star Wars novelization.

Jumping franchises, the Star Trek II and III novelizations added a Saavik/David Marcus romance, Peter David’s Return of the Swamp Thing novelization added an entire setting and group of characters in an attempt to make some sort of narrative sense of the story, and the Buckaroo Banzai novelization is so chock full of scenes and information not in the movie that you’d never think in a million years that the same person wrote the movie and novelization...but he did.

And that's why they clarified it. The novelizations writer do get the scripts but the script isn't exactly what makes it to film and so they can't avoid discrepancies and release the novelization at the time of the movie release. This happened with The Force Awakens from what I understand. And has happened in the past as you mention.

8 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

It's my understanding that the novelizations are not canon. Not even the novels in the new "canon era" (Force Awakens, Last Jedi) are canon. Lucasfilm has explicitly said that if the novel and movie contradict (which they do) it's the movie that is "canon".

Yes, lots of Legends stuff does mention this. See my previous post.

Thanks for you comment though, it's interesting.

3 hours ago, Eoen said:

Wouldn’t that mean if the movie doesn’t mention it there is no conflict, and there fore it would be de facto canon or at least in a grey area?

I believe it depends upon which novelization. If i remember correctly, new canon novelizations of the movies were put out. But, yes, where there is any contradictions, the movies do always take precedence.

34 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I believe it depends upon which novelization. If i remember correctly, new canon novelizations of the movies were put out. But, yes, where there is any contradictions, the mo...

But at any point in the future some new canon project can pull any non-canon elements out any previous Star Wars work and canonize it whole or in part.

15 minutes ago, Eoen said:

But at any point in the future some new canon project can pull any non-canon elements out any previous Star Wars work and canonize it whole or in part.

Yep. 😎

Question for the community:

Did Tramp just defacto admit that stuff he was claiming was cannon, stuff in the novelizations of movies but not in the movies themselves was technically not cannon even if it wasn't directly contradicted in the first movies?

If so that would be remarkable character growth on his part. How much xp should he get?😋

3 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Question for the community:

Did Tramp just defacto admit that stuff he was claiming was cannon, stuff in the novelizations of movies but not in the movies themselves was technically not cannon even if it wasn't directly contradicted in the first movies?

If so that would be remarkable character growth on his part. How much xp should he get?😋

Ha. Maybe. If the wookieepedia folks don’t consider novelizations canon (due to statements already cited) and he’s fond of treating them as a definitive source then perhaps. But I wouldn’t count on it.

Since I’ve got insomnia....

Out of curiosity I looked over the Yoda (canon) page on wookieepedia and didn’t notice any reference to Yoda being a practitioner of any particular lightsaber style or that he’d mastered them all.

So maybe a bit more allowance of differences of opinion on what works, fits, is appropriate, or is canon (if that even matters to you or your table) is called for.

Especially in a role-playing game where the social contract is live and let live and a value on exploring concepts and characters and possibilities. Not everything (or much of anything) has to be to your preferences but dictating to others the standard of their preferences breaks that contract.

Whatever FFG puts out for “official” named NPCs they’ll be aimed at usability and fun at the table and not comprehensive encapsulating the character (and browbeating players to adhere to it).

29 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

So maybe a bit more allowance of differences of opinion on what works, fits, is appropriate, or is canon (if that even matters to you or your table) is called for.

⛔ That's not how Star Wars works, and that's not how the internet works either!

@Jedi Ronin Wookieepedia doesn’t mention lightsaber styles on any of the Jedi or Sith write ups except perhaps Mace Windu. They do mention noted form practitioners under the form articles: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Form_IV .

On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 3:21 PM, Eoen said:

Also why do you feel the need to respond to one paragraph with six, it’s like an essay or something?

You know, considering he has nearly nine thousand posts and reputation, it might make sense to stop sniping and listen. You might learn something, even if you disagree.

And this from someone who's had plenty of disagreements with Mr Morningfire over the years, but can still respect him.

And from someone who thinks 'canon' arguments sound like discussions about angels dancing on the heads of pins.

Anyway, how about them Seperatists? Do we know when they might be Rising? The third and final season of the MarcyVerse awaits it.

2 hours ago, Maelora said:

You know, considering he has nearly nine thousand posts and reputation, it might make sense to stop sniping and listen. You might learn something, even if you disagree.

And this from someone who's had plenty of disagreements with Mr Morningfire over the years, but can still respect him.

And from someone who thinks 'canon' arguments sound like discussions about angels dancing on the heads of pins.

Anyway, how about them Seperatists? Do we know when they might be Rising? The third and final season of the MarcyVerse awaits it.

wait....whazzzatt??.....someone said something about the thread topic?.....Hey! It's Marcy!!......