3 minutes ago, evo454 said:

I'm waiting on the book for three reasons:

1. I find the books to be genuinely interesting and fun to read, not to mention the artwork is always beautiful ...

2. I want to get the official Clone and Jedi stats and trees as well as all the adversaries and vehicle stat blocks. Plus the ideas for troupe style play seem interesting and I want to see what FFG has done with it.

3. I love homebrewing, but the first thing I learned with my group when we started playing is that it is far easier to use official rules (when it comes to stats and basic rules, I know plenty of folks homerule some of the stuff) than to have to suddenly decided how I'm going to handle my player wanting a Shaped Explosive when I don't have a stat for it and nothing is close ...

1. I absolutely agree. I'm not arguing and saying the book isn't necessary and that no one should buy it. I'm very excited for it and look forward to getting it for some of the same reasons you stated.

2. Sure, the spec trees are important. The vehicle statistics a little less so, in my opinion, since vehicle stats are all so streamlined and simple anyway. So again, yeah, I'm excited and want to see this stuff.

3. I agree, of course, that using printed rules is easier than homebrewing. This is where part of my confusion comes in, though. What homebrewing, exactly, do you feel is necessary for a Clone Wars game? You can make Jedi and Clones with existing trees (Jedi less perfectly, but plenty well enough to play), and you can similarly mock up the Clone Wars vehicles that we don't have, if necessary (though we already have the stats for many of the important ones). Other than those things, a Clone Wars game is not that thematically different from running a Galactic Civil War / military game. We have mass combat rules and we have tons of GM guidance on running military/war games. My confusion comes from the fact that it seems more than easy and intuitive enough to reskin all of that with Clone Wars content that's readily available.

Basically, I want the book for the statistics of a few things that we do not have yet, but the guts of what makes this era special is easily accessible and applicable to what we already have. I just can't imagine feeling as though you can't run a game without this book as it's certainly not going to go into nearly as much detail or provide nearly as much insight into the era as the show did (or that Wookieepedia can freely provide today). I get delaying a game for the book at this point, but I can't imagine having put off running a Clone Wars game since the game's release simply because you didn't have a Clone Wars splatbook.

6 minutes ago, Eoen said:

The Clone and Jedi trees of course the FAD trees are cool but don't seem very movie Jedi like unless you restrict yourself to sentry and niman.

More Gar and Sep equipment.

The stat blocks for the following separatist droids:

...

I'm not sure I follow on the existing trees not feeling like a "movie" Jedi. How do you quantify what you're seeing on screen as related to a spec-tree? They hack away with their lightsabers, which is hard to really align to a spec-tree, and use Force powers, which correspond very well to what we have. Is it simply you feel that it requires too much XP to fulfill a Jedi concept? Because that I would agree with.

As to the droid statblocks: do you really feel that adversaries in this game, especially minion and rival level (which most droids are), are really so distinct that official ones will provide you with new or additional functionality? If you look at content we have now, how different is a B1 from a Stormtrooper really? Do you feel that adversary blocks you quickly mock up yourself are going to be significantly different from what will end up being in the book? Even the most complicated nemeses have at most 3-4 talents, and most of these droids will probably not have any. In the end we're talking about slightly altered abilities and equipment that yield adversaries that play 90% identically to every other adversary of the same level, barring narrative differences that are possible with or without the book.

I guess I just don't foresee this book providing nearly as much insight or illumination as others seem to, due to the intrinsically narrative and streamlined nature of the system (which is something I love). Again, I think it'll be a great book, but I just don't understand delaying a game for it.

But I am by no means saying "don't be excited for this book" or "don't buy this book," because I am both very excited for it and am anxiously awaiting my own copy.

2 minutes ago, Smog said:

I'm not sure I follow on the existing trees not feeling like a "movie" Jedi. How do you quantify what you're seeing on screen as related to a spec-tree? They hack away with their lightsabers, which is hard to really align to a spec-tree, and use Force powers, which correspond very well to what we have. Is it simply you feel that it requires too much XP to fulfill a Jedi concept? Because that I would agree with.

I will begin with saying I am a huge fan of the Clone Wars series. Almost every Jedi trained had probably around twenty years training before they became Knights. They do things like jump out of space ship holds in atmosphere and free fall for hundreds of feet and then land without a scratch, they do this all the time to not once per session. Almost all of them are really good at reflect except that guy Jango shot. Also in edition to that they are competent at other things like hand to hand combat, flying, commanding troops, fixing stuff, and as Generals. It's like they are all over 1000 point characters before you meet them.

Maybe troupe style play is the fix to the game balance issue this will cause.

1 minute ago, Eoen said:

I will begin with saying I am a huge fan of the Clone Wars series. Almost every Jedi trained had probably around twenty years training before they became Knights. They do things like jump out of space ship holds in atmosphere and free fall for hundreds of feet and then land without a scratch, they do this all the time to not once per session. Almost all of them are really good at reflect except that guy Jango shot. Also in edition to that they are competent at other things like hand to hand combat, flying, commanding troops, fixing stuff, and as Generals. It's like they are all over 1000 point characters before you meet them.

Maybe troupe style play is the fix to the game balance issue this will cause.

Sure, I agree with everything you've said in terms of thematics and Jedi ability. I am an avid, diehard Filoni fan, and have watched the entirety of TCW five times through at this point (not including my friend group's frequent drunken viewings of our favorite arcs). Jedi Masters are incredibly impressive, and even some Knights (such as Anakin) are demi-gods. But why do you believe we can't make them? They should have tons of XP. They've been gaining experience since they were the equivalent of five years old.

All that said, I don't agree with "1000 point characters". You can make day one "Sky Guy" Ahsoka with 250-300, and I've comfortably statted up TCW Jedi Knights and Masters with 500-600. Sure, if we're talking Yoda or Palpatine, then we're getting into 1000+ XP, but those aren't really meant to be PCs. Like I occasionally remind people, you don't have to have a specialization to be competent at something. Just because Ahsoka fixes the ship on Mortis doesn't mean she took Mechanic or Shipwright, and her constant flipping about karate in "Padawan Lost" is easily represented by two ranks in Brawl and a 20 XP Enhance.

I guess I agree that Jedi take XP to really get going, but I'm not sure why that's a problem. Do you think that the Jedi trees are going to shortcut this somehow? Because if the Jedi trees suddenly enable someone to make a fully functional TCW Jedi for 150 XP, that's going to be a huge, huge problem, on the level of the absurdly overpowered Force users from Saga Edition. Jedi should be expensive. They have literal super powers.

2 minutes ago, Smog said:

Sure, I agree with everything you've said in terms of thematics and Jedi ability. I am an avid, diehard Filoni fan, and have watched the entirety of TCW five times through at this point (not including my friend group's frequent drunken viewings of our favorite arcs). Jedi Masters are incredibly impressive, and even some Knights (such as Anakin) are demi-gods. But why do you believe we can't make them? They should have tons of XP. They've been gaining experience since they were the equivalent of five years old.

All that said, I don't agree with "1000 point characters". You can make day one "Sky Guy" Ahsoka with 250-300, and I've comfortably statted up TCW Jedi Knights and Masters with 500-600. Sure, if we're talking Yoda or Palpatine, then we're getting into 1000+ XP, but those aren't really meant to be PCs. Like I occasionally remind people, you don't have to have a specialization to be competent at something. Just because Ahsoka fixes the ship on Mortis doesn't mean she took Mechanic or Shipwright, and her constant flipping about karate in "Padawan Lost" is easily represented by two ranks in Brawl and a 20 XP Enhance.

I guess I agree that Jedi take XP to really get going, but I'm not sure why that's a problem. Do you think that the Jedi trees are going to shortcut this somehow? Because if the Jedi trees suddenly enable someone to make a fully functional TCW Jedi for 150 XP, that's going to be a huge, huge problem, on the level of the absurdly overpowered Force users from Saga Edition. Jedi should be expensive. They have literal super powers.

IF you're talking Yoda, you're getting into the 2500+ XP range.

7 hours ago, evo454 said:

Possibly *puts on tinfoil hat* with Clone Wars coming back they had to clear some stuff with Disney before printing it to keep from spoiling/contradicting the show.

Your tinfoil hat may be more real than you know. Ghosts of Dathomir was heavily delayed, and it coincidentally dropped within a week of one of the computer games having a "Ghosts of Dathomir" expansion. There is an upcoming separatist expansion in that game, and I assume they will drop at the same time.

Duplicate

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

IF you're talking Yoda, you're getting into the 2500+ XP range.

I strongly disagree. The things we see him do in canon material can easily be reproduced with 1000 XP.

15 minutes ago, Edgookin said:

Your tinfoil hat may be more real than you know. Ghosts of Dathomir was heavily delayed, and it coincidentally dropped within a week of one of the computer games having a "Ghosts of Dathomir" expansion. There is an upcoming separatist expansion in that game, and I assume they will drop at the same time.

Are you talking about Galaxy of Heroes? Because the Separatist rework/release is happening right now.

1 hour ago, Smog said:

I guess I agree that Jedi take XP to really get going, but I'm not sure why that's a problem. Do you think that the Jedi trees are going to shortcut this somehow? Because if the Jedi trees suddenly enable someone to make a fully functional TCW Jedi for 150 XP, that's going to be a huge, huge problem, on the level of the absurdly overpowered Force users from Saga Edition. Jedi should be expensive. They have literal super powers.

Have you played troupe style? I think that's why they are introducing it in this expansion, it's a system that balances out super tough characters with lesser characters. Basically you have (exampli gratia in Ars Magica) three tiers of PC characters, so each character would have a jedi, a tough non force user, and a shared group of clones. Every adventure has a different mix of PC's, the Jedi aren't always in the same place at the same time, but as needed.

So yes there's power creep but it's a superhero game anyways, everyone has one so there's balance and they have other toons they are interested in, and a pool of troops who gain names and personalities of their own since they aren't always played by the same player.

21 hours ago, Smog said:

I strongly disagree. The things we see him do in canon material can easily be reproduced with 1000 XP.

Are you talking about Galaxy of Heroes? Because the Separatist rework/release is happening right now.

Tell that to KRKappel. When he did his Jedi Council test campaign he built Yoda at 2100 XP.

15 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Tell that to KRKappel. When he did his Jedi Council test campaign he built Yoda at 2100 XP.

I mean, that's perfectly fine? You, or Keith, or whomever can stat him however you'd like. Just keep in mind that according to FFG, we can also build a Jedi Knight with Knight-Level XP, which we all know is laughably untrue. It's also possible that if the goal was to create a Jedi Council campaign that Keith chose 2k+ XP simply for theme and to make the Council feel extremely powerful. That does not at all indicate he feels those levels of XP actually match what we see.

The only point I was making was that the things we actually see Yoda do in the movies and TCW can easily be represented with 1000 XP. I don't believe in the logic of "well, he's the greatest Jedi of the Republic, so that must mean he has almost every Force-sensitive spec and Force Power maxed out."

I build characters to be within the realm of the capabilities we actually see in canon material. If you want to build them to absurdly higher levels because that matches your vision of them, or you want to match Legends material, or simply because that works for your game: great, I genuinely hope you have a great time and it works for what you need. But the conversation Eoen and I were having was the XP required to build Jedi within this system to be able to do the things we actually see on screen, specifically within the context of TCW. Within those bounds, 1000 XP for Yoda is actually very liberal. You could technically build TCW/Empire/RotJ Yoda for about 750 XP, but 1000 allows for some buffer to include things heavily implied to be within his capabilities that we never actually see.

1 minute ago, Smog said:

I mean, that's perfectly fine? You, or Keith, or whomever can stat him however you'd like. Just keep in mind that according to FFG, we can also build a Jedi Knight with Knight-Level XP, which we all know is laughably untrue. It's also possible that if the goal was to create a Jedi Council campaign that Keith chose 2k+ XP simply for theme and to make the Council feel extremely powerful. That does not at all indicate he feels those levels of XP actually match what we see.

The only point I was making was that the things we actually see Yoda do in the movies and TCW can easily be represented with 1000 XP. I don't believe in the logic of "well, he's the greatest Jedi of the Republic, so that must mean he has almost every Force-sensitive spec and Force Power maxed out."

I build characters to be within the realm of the capabilities we actually see in canon material. If you want to build them to absurdly higher levels because that matches your vision of them, or you want to match Legends material, or simply because that works for your game: great, I genuinely hope you have a great time and it works for what you need. But the conversation Eoen and I were having was the XP required to build Jedi within this system to be able to do the things we actually see on screen, specifically within the context of TCW. Within those bounds, 1000 XP for Yoda is actually very liberal. You could technically build TCW/Empire/RotJ Yoda for about 750 XP, but 1000 allows for some buffer to include things heavily implied to be within his capabilities that we never actually see.

I put a full Jedi Knight at around 500-1000 XP. A Master of OBi-Wan's level at about 1500-2000 XP, and Masters of Yoda or Mace Windu at 2000+ XP. This accounts for an FR of 7+, most (if not all) Force powers maxed out with all upgrades, maxed out multiple Specs (at least 5), and maxed out relevant skills.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I put a full Jedi Knight at around 500-1000 XP. A Master of OBi-Wan's level at about 1500-2000 XP, and Masters of Yoda or Mace Windu at 2000+ XP. This accounts for an FR of 7+, most (if not all) Force powers maxed out with all upgrades, maxed out multiple Specs (at least 5), and maxed out relevant skills.

Sure, I can totally get behind that and they're not that far off from my own guidelines (which are around 150 for a padawan, 400 for a knight, and 800 for a master). If your numbers are what you like and that's where you feel they're at then I'm not at all telling you you're "doing it wrong." The only point I was making was the XP required to represent what we literally see in canon. But I do not pretend (or even presume) that characters' abilities are restricted only to the things we see.

Just now, Smog said:

Sure, I can totally get behind that and they're not that far off from my own guidelines (which are around 150 for a padawan, 400 for a knight, and 800 for a master). If your numbers are what you like and that's where you feel they're at then I'm not at all telling you you're "doing it wrong." The only point I was making was the XP required to represent what we literally see in canon. But I do not pretend (or even presume) that characters' abilities are restricted only to the things we see.

I have a Jedi Master with over 1800 XP (converted from a previous system), and he's not nearly as powerful as Yoda. The problem with your low XP is it doesn't take into account everything else the character learned, such as skills and talents, and focuses on min-maxing--specifically fast tracking to the Force Rating and a couple of Force Powers. My approach is more about well-rounded characters with a lot of real-world experience, and extensive knowledge about a lot of things, not hyper-specialized.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

I have a Jedi Master with over 1800 XP (converted from a previous system), and he's not nearly as powerful as Yoda. The problem with your low XP is it doesn't take into account everything else the character learned, such as skills and talents, and focuses on min-maxing--specifically fast tracking to the Force Rating and a couple of Force Powers. My approach is more about well-rounded characters with a lot of real-world experience, and extensive knowledge about a lot of things, not hyper-specialized.

Then I feel like you're missing the point. The fact you do not have to be hyper-specialized or min-maxed to be extremely powerful with 1000 XP aside, on what basis are you giving him these things? What on screen evidence do you have that your 1800 XP OC is not "nearly as powerful as Yoda"? What canon example of Yoda being far more powerful than 1800 XP can you give?

The things we actually see Yoda do are: mastery of Force powers, masterfully duel competent adversaries, and provide occasional wisdom (that even he himself admits is far from perfect). That's really it. We never see him do anything absurd like pull a Star Destroyer out of orbit or roll over entire fleets single-handedly from his starfighter.

One example I would give is Episode II. By your logic, it doesn't sound like Yoda would have any trouble passing that Knowledge check to know exactly where Kamino was and who lived there, and yet he didn't know. It took a short order fry cook to give Obi-Wan the answers he needed. He showed strain when catching that Silhouette 3 object that nearly crushed Obi-Wan and Anakin. And while he was certainly winning the duel against Dooku, he didn't slaughter him in a single round or simply hold Dooku's ship in place like he would have if he had 2500+ XP. He even says that he's not capable of defeating Dooku with Force powers alone, meaning he can't be that much more powerful -- at least in terms of the Force -- than Dooku himself.

It seems as though you have a very specific vision of Yoda and other Jedi masters, and the things of which you believe them to be capable. I am purely making observations of the things we actually see them do, as opposed to the fan legends and hype surrounding them. However, at this point I feel like we aren't getting anywhere in this conversation and really don't need to continue derailing this thread. Feel free to reply, of course (I neither care about nor am I trying to get the last word), but this is where I'll be leaving it. Cheers, TG.

10 minutes ago, Smog said:

Then I feel like you're missing the point. The fact you do not have to be hyper-specialized or min-maxed to be extremely powerful with 1000 XP aside, on what basis are you giving him these things? What on screen evidence do you have that your 1800 XP OC is not "nearly as powerful as Yoda"? What canon example of Yoda being far more powerful than 1800 XP can you give?

The things we actually see Yoda do are: mastery of Force powers, masterfully duel competent adversaries, and provide occasional wisdom (that even he himself admits is far from perfect). That's really it. We never see him do anything absurd like pull a Star Destroyer out of orbit or roll over entire fleets single-handedly from his starfighter.

One example I would give is Episode II. By your logic, it doesn't sound like Yoda would have any trouble passing that Knowledge check to know exactly where Kamino was and who lived there, and yet he didn't know. It took a short order fry cook to give Obi-Wan the answers he needed. He showed strain when catching that Silhouette 3 object that nearly crushed Obi-Wan and Anakin. And while he was certainly winning the duel against Dooku, he didn't slaughter him in a single round or simply hold Dooku's ship in place like he would have if he had 2500+ XP. He even says that he's not capable of defeating Dooku with Force powers alone, meaning he can't be that much more powerful -- at least in terms of the Force -- than Dooku himself.

It seems as though you have a very specific vision of Yoda and other Jedi masters, and the things of which you believe them to be capable. I am purely making observations of the things we actually see them do, as opposed to the fan legends and hype surrounding them. However, at this point I feel like we aren't getting anywhere in this conversation and really don't need to continue derailing this thread. Feel free to reply, of course (I neither care about nor am I trying to get the last word), but this is where I'll be leaving it. Cheers, TG.

Yes, the key word here is mastery. That implies maxed out level of a given set of skills, talent tree, Force Power, etc. In Yoda's case that means, at the very least, maxed out ranks in Lightsaber, Lore, Negotiation, Charm, and potentially other skills, a Force Rating of 7 minimum (which requires at least 4 specializations maxed out, including all three specs with two Increase Force Rating talents each, as well as Ataru Striker), every Force power in the books maxed out with all upgrades. Maxed out ranks in Parry and Reflect, as well as the Improved and Supreme versions of each. Compare that to this character. Even at 1875 XP, he doesn't have any skills, talent trees, or Force powers fully maxed out, and only has a Force rating of 4. I would expect Yoda to be just as well-rounded, but also maxed out in everything he's been trained in.

24 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, the key word here is mastery. That implies maxed out level of a given set of skills, talent tree, Force Power, etc. In Yoda's case that means, at the very least, maxed out ranks in Lightsaber, Lore, Negotiation, Charm, and potentially other skills, a Force Rating of 7 minimum (which requires at least 4 specializations maxed out, including all three specs with two Increase Force Rating talents each, as well as Ataru Striker), every Force power in the books maxed out with all upgrades. Maxed out ranks in Parry and Reflect, as well as the Improved and Supreme versions of each. Compare that to this character. Even at 1875 XP, he doesn't have any skills, talent trees, or Force powers fully maxed out, and only has a Force rating of 4. I would expect Yoda to be just as well-rounded, but also maxed out in everything he's been trained in.

I agree. People tend to be reffering to a min-max version of Yoda. But as a Jedi master of the highest possible order he would have fullness in each of the things we perceive him to have expertise in.

7 minutes ago, Luahk said:

I agree. People tend to be reffering to a min-max version of Yoda. But as a Jedi master of the highest possible order he would have fullness in each of the things we perceive him to have expertise in.

Exactly. He wouldn't be min maxed, he would be maxed out in a wide variety of abilities, not just one or two. With 900 years of experience, you wouldn't just be skilled at a small handful of things.

33 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Exactly. He wouldn't be min maxed, he would be maxed out in a wide variety of abilities, not just one or two. With 900 years of experience, you wouldn't just be skilled at a small handful of things.

Yet, a master of grammar is he? After nine hundred years, I think not.

On 2/11/2019 at 3:22 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

IF you're talking Yoda, you're getting into the 2500+ XP range.

Yoda would probably have FR7. The cheapest way to get that would be ataru, hermit, sage, seer, but I expect him to have 4's in int and cunning and a 6 in willpower, maybe a 3 in presence, so probably drop sage and hermit and pick up sentry, padawan survivor, arbiter, and ascetic, I have tried building him but I'd guess I could do it in less than 2500 xp, though as a ball park estimate your not that far off.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, the key word here is mastery. That implies maxed out level of a given set of skills, talent tree, Force Power, etc. In Yoda's case that means, at the very least, maxed out ranks in Lightsaber, Lore, Negotiation, Charm, and potentially other skills, a Force Rating of 7 minimum (which requires at least 4 specializations maxed out, including all three specs with two Increase Force Rating talents each, as well as Ataru Striker), every Force power in the books maxed out with all upgrades. Maxed out ranks in Parry and Reflect, as well as the Improved and Supreme versions of each. Compare that to this character. Even at 1875 XP, he doesn't have any skills, talent trees, or Force powers fully maxed out, and only has a Force rating of 4. I would expect Yoda to be just as well-rounded, but also maxed out in everything he's been trained in.

I don't think yoda needs EVERY force power maxed out or supreme reflect and parry, improved is good enough, charm doesn't need to be maxed out but discipline does. You're going a LITTLE over the top on yoda. Yoda wasn't a hermit as of the clone wars.

3 hours ago, Smog said:

Then I feel like you're missing the point.

This is the near-universal realization one has after engaging in any discussion with Tramp.

On 2/11/2019 at 4:39 PM, Smog said:

What homebrewing, exactly, do you feel is necessary for a Clone Wars game?

I've been working on Clone Commando Classes for my players because we want to do a campaign based around them. (We love the game and books, and a huge fans of the Commandos)

That's the bulk of where I'm hoping the book will have some helpful information, especially on the specialized battle droids end.

Quite frankly, waiting on the book also gives us time to reach a good stopping point in our current campaign, so part of it is also stalling. Gives me time to write up the missions and get it all ready to go once the book comes out and we can "finally use this era!"

Honestly I wouldn't feel so hemmed if not for the 'jedi' trees which are extremely intriguing to me. That alone made this essential for purchase.

2 hours ago, Luahk said:

Honestly I wouldn't feel so hemmed if not for the 'jedi' trees which are extremely intriguing to me. That alone made this essential for purchase.

I have little doubt that both the Jedi and Clone trees will lead to great bickering and disappointment once they are revealed. Everyone has their own ideas of what these "should" look like, and they will no doubt fail to please everyone. If they made them "compromise" versions, they might even fail to please anyone.