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...the Kaito Errata is kinda junk. You get access to a rank 1 ritual...at rank 2?

2 minutes ago, Ikiry0 said:

...the Kaito Errata is kinda junk. You get access to a rank 1 ritual...at rank 2?

It isn't about access, it is about it counting towards your school advancement. It does seem to be a unique case though

Feels like they could have put an Air Invocation there (As Kaito already has design issues. They are all about Air and Water...but never get above rank 1 air invocations aside from one instance of Rise, Air. They need to completely restructure at late levels to suddenly be good at Fire Invocations.)

In addition, the clarification that you can't buy privileged things outside of the level you get access to them is REALLY bad for Kaito. Since their entire school feature is dependent on their privileged access to Invocations. They've got a very hard 'You HAVE to buy your advances in this order, or you'll never get it again'. They also forever lose the ability to buy invocations when they hit rank 6 even if they do keep getting exp.

4 minutes ago, Ikiry0 said:

Feels like they could have put an Air Invocation there (As Kaito already has design issues. They are all about Air and Water...but never get above rank 1 air invocations aside from one instance of Rise, Air. They need to completely restructure at late levels to suddenly be good at Fire Invocations.)

L5R characters are less about min/maxing and as Rings cap out at 5 focusing on improving Air->Water->Fire is perfectly fine.

They're less about min-maxing and more about how characters sorta need to completely restructure, when rings are character aspects as much as talent.

5 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

L5R characters are less about min/maxing and as Rings cap out at 5 focusing on improving Air->Water->Fire is perfectly fine.

Air should never be your main ring if you want to "min/max".

Earth first, Water/Fire second, Air last.

It's probably about flavor and balancing out the fixes to the schools. I remember a conversation once where we were talking about he Kaito love of using Belomancy (as detailed in the fluff section at the end of The Sword and The Spirits god I hope that stuff is reprinted in a sourcebook) and it was pointed out that at the time they didn't actually have Divination on the curriculum (so they could take it but it wasn't a school specific thing) and well, now they do. It's a bit weird, but hey, Skulk is an R1 Ninjutsu but Hiruma Scouts get it in their R2 block.

I'm still making a naginata iaijutsu duelist and nobody can stop me !

Is the Chapter 6 entry for pages 241, 257, 263, 273, intrigue/scheme correct?

you know what is VERY legendary ?

making Errata in you Errata;

Akodo Commander is not p.79... he is page.70

and Kaito Shrine Keeper is not p.76, but p.77

actually... other pages are wrong too

gotta trust them to give us the best corrections !

oh and btw, If they really intend Asahina to use their school ability all the time on all the invocations they say it can be used with... it is very, very busted. Maybe should be once per scene in that case lol (or, an amount of time per scene as school rank /2, which is the buff I gave to Doji) but all the time ? insanity.

13 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

oh and btw, If they really intend Asahina to use their school ability all the time on all the invocations they say it can be used with... it is very, very busted. Maybe should be once per scene in that case lol (or, an amount of time per scene as school rank /2, which is the buff I gave to Doji) but all the time ? insanity.

I think the idea is that the largely pacifistic Asahina are intended to be played as the "cleric who only prepares support spells", and a lot of the non-damaging invocations really don't make a lot of impact without being able to reliably fire off their opportunity effects (which is what the Asahina school ability lets you do). So if you're going to be the hard-support, you might as well be the best at it. (yes I know there's technically nothing but RP and loss of Honor/Glory stopping you from taking an invocation that has one of those keywords and does damage, I'm just putting out the intent)

3 minutes ago, drbraininajar said:

I think the idea is that the largely pacifistic Asahina are intended to be played as the "cleric who only prepares support spells", and a lot of the non-damaging invocations really don't make a lot of impact without being able to reliably fire off their opportunity effects (which is what the Asahina school ability lets you do). So if you're going to be the hard-support, you might as well be the best at it. (yes I know there's technically nothing but RP and loss of Honor/Glory stopping you from taking an invocation that has one of those keywords and does damage, I'm just putting out the intent)

you can do tornadoes and earthquake with school rank +opp all the time... thats kinda GG. and thats not including all the items (katana of fire etc) or the illusion stuff..

if you look at that.. if they can use it for ALL those invocations all the time, how can you even compare that to Doji, who basically can only use for persuade/influence "checks" and only once per scene ??

its cleary not balancing

I imagine the devs are expecting you to play true to the lore, which is that the Asahina are pacifists, and thus wouldn't be blasting people with wind, fire, all that kind of thing. Also the only weapon summon you can hand off to someone else is the lightning sword one, making the other ones kind of moot for a person who doesn't violence at other people.

Again, while the only thing mechanically stopping you from breaking that stricture is the Honor/Glory loss that would come with breaking your Asahina family oath (and the associated Disadvantages that come with low Honor/Glory for PCs) or what have you, the point remains.

narrative is not the answer to rules issues at my table. but yes. i cannot argue with that, if your asahina is suppose to "never hurt anybody" (which i didn't read anywhere) sure.

17 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

narrative is not the answer to rules issues at my table. but yes. i cannot argue with that, if your asahina is suppose to "never hurt anybody" (which i didn't read anywhere) sure.

In the description of their school (the paragraph next to the chart" is says they're pacifists and dedicate themselves to nonviolence. And of course I agree that the mechanics in this case should be propping up the narrative a bit more beyond "you lose Samurai Good Guy Points for doing it"

I'll consult my book in a bit for some exact wording

Also, don't forget that while their mechanical side effects may seem like a slap on the wrist, Honor and Glory are tools the game gives you to remind players of how this world expects their characters to act.

53 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

narrative is not the answer to rules issues at my table. but yes. i cannot argue with that, if your asahina is suppose to "never hurt anybody" (which i didn't read anywhere) sure.

It's supposed to be a narrative system, like it or not.

10 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

It's supposed to be a narrative system, like it or not.

True, but that just puts more of the onus on the rules to make a game "feel" like the story it's supposed to be. Things like this with the Asahina, balance issues aside, are obvious disconnects between the expected narrative and what the mechanics support, so they stand out above other mechanical tweaks needed.

Kinda have the same feeling myself about Jade Strike. I'm surprised it wasn't altered to affect Tainted targets rather than Otherworldly ones, since as it stands you CAN'T Jade Strike a Goblin or mahotsukai, but you CAN Jade Strike a Kirin or Manifest Kami. It's just an example of things that still sorta stick out.

4 minutes ago, drbraininajar said:

True, but that just puts more of the onus on the rules to make a game "feel" like the story it's supposed to be. Things like this with the Asahina, balance issues aside, are obvious disconnects between the expected narrative and what the mechanics support, so they stand out above other mechanical tweaks needed.

I'd certainly have preferred a stronger wording on the Asahina's pacifism (and, in fairness, a better balanced ability in the first place), but putting stringent mechanical restrictions on the narrative defeats the purpose of the narrative (the game expects you to occasionally do something you're not supposed to and take a narrative penalty for it) and just plain doesn't work if you factor in the subtle nuance of the setting. And my point was really a more general one: if someone can't accept narrative as a solution to rules issues in a narrative system, maybe they'd be better off using a different system altogether.

5 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

I'd certainly have preferred a stronger wording on the Asahina's pacifism (and, in fairness, a better balanced ability in the first place), but putting stringent mechanical restrictions on the narrative defeats the purpose of the narrative (the game expects you to occasionally do something you're not supposed to and take a narrative penalty for it) and just plain doesn't work if you factor in the subtle nuance of the setting. And my point was really a more general one: if someone can't accept narrative as a solution to rules issues in a narrative system, maybe they'd be better off using a different system altogether.

How tight the rules have to be to reinforce the narrative they intend is a fine line to walk, to be sure. Fortunately, L5R gives us Honor and Glory,which are good tools to help a GM enforce the expectations of the narrative. The Asahina ability however, if it can apply to "attack" invocations, may be enough of a ludonarrative break to make the game feel weird at times, and how well the rules support the feel of a game is at least as important as balance for a narratively focused system, if not moreso.

yeah, i'm ok that it is a narrative system, but if it was really the intent there wouldn't be nearly as much rules as there is now... L5R is relatively mechanical heavy, jeez, even intrigues have mechanical resolutions.

if the intent was to have the Asahina never hurt nobody, their ability should have supported that. And not say that it "works with Earthquakes".

23 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

yeah, i'm ok that it is a narrative system, but if it was really the intent there wouldn't be nearly as much rules as there is now... L5R is relatively mechanical heavy, jeez, even intrigues have mechanical resolutions.

if the intent was to have the Asahina never hurt nobody, their ability should have supported that. And not say that it "works with Earthquakes".

Exactly. Feedback like this is important. Also it's important to remember that "Narrative Focus" does not have to mean "Fewer/Looser Rules". The rules need to be exactly tight enough to reinforce what the game is "about", right down to player abilities. That's gonna be at a different spot on the sliding scale for every game (or even for different systems within a game)

In this particular case, I agree that it "feels wrong" for an Asahina's signature ability to be able to work with invocations that "summon" elemental forces like earthquakes n such, when it makes a lot more sense with the Asahina's role and philosophy in the world for them to stick to a more literal interpretation of "an object" (that is, a discrete item, whether conjured by an illusion or formed out of energy/matter like the <Weapon> of <Element> invocations or Wall of <Element> ones).

Interestingly, I COULD see an Asahina summoning a Bo of Water for its Snaring quality (since you don't actually need to do damage to trigger it) or Testubo of Earth using Opportunity to make it Sacred, solely to act as a buffer against bad mojo.

2 hours ago, drbraininajar said:

wind, fire, all that kind of thing. 

But can they artifice a six demon bag?

28 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

But can they artifice a six demon bag?

probably but idk why they would want to. (+1 point to you for picking that up btw)

It was too good to let pass unacknowledged.