I've been going back and forth in my mind on this argument. For a time I was pretty salty about the Uthuk. I've since made some adjustments to my play and list building and am now on a win streak against them. Overall I'm probably at around a 50% win rate against them with Waiqar. But in an Uthuk heavy local meta where you have a good idea of what you are facing every week it's not that hard to build a counter list. Just like @Jukey noted, in a tournament setting you can list build for countering one army only to get caught by another.

I think there are actually two separate questions here.

Are Uthuk overpowered in casual local matches where you know your opponent?

Are Uthuk overpowered in a tournament setting?

My answer to the first question is "not really"... They have a lot of combat related strengths that translate to overwhelming victories at times. Once you crack them you can beat them consistently but you often are winning close games. It's difficult to achieve a high margin of victory against such a high health/high damage army. But in a casual local game a W is a W, so who cares.

My answer to the second question is "most likely"...

There are a few things I think you can say about Runewars that are not under contention:

The game is combat oriented.

Objectives are not as important as killing your opponent.

Winning games by a large margin is more likely to win you tournaments.

Anyone who disagrees with any of these statements feel free to tell me why I'm wrong.

Uthuk tend to be the most point efficient combat army. They are the most likely to win by a large margin (when they do win). This translates to more tournament success. I don't think the problem is as big as some make it out to be... But it exists...

Side note: This is not meant to downplay the skill of anyone winning with Uthuk. This is a game where a good player will beat a bad player 99% of the time even when the bad player has a clearly better list. I also get the impression that no one in the Runewars community is picking their faction because it gives them the best chance of winning. Everyone appears to be picking the faction they like due to a preferred play style or aesthetic, and that rocks. It does however mean that we all tend to be a bit biased when it comes to these discussions. By all accounts @Church14 is an excellent player who has had success with multiple factions. Even never having played against him he often says things on these forums that both demonstrate deep knowledge of the game and ring true to me (as someone who spends too much of his free time thinking about this game). He also seems to really like Uthuk...

As a hard core Waiqar fanatic, I find myself getting a little sensitive about the Lord OP talk of late... I've made my share of "wait and see" arguments about him recently. So I can understand how Uthuk fans could feel the same way about conversations like these.

Thanks to @QuickWhit for an excellent post.

I think you highlight a lot that makes the discussion fair and balanced, and respectful to all the players involved. I started writing a post earlier, but couldn't quite get my thoughts in order. I, too, go back and forth in my mind, and probably the posts I've made over the past few days have meandered a bit as well.

First, I think we need to acknowledge that conversations about the Uthuk have not been recent. So no one is using anything about worlds as the sole piece of evidence. These conversations have been going on since the Uthuk core and infantry command came out. We had 2-3 threads going on around the time of GenCon. Now, I try to be skeptical of such claims at all times. I've played several different games for over two decades, and claims of something being OP are always pretty common. I do think that when you get players of very different skills and players in multiple communities and complaints over a long period of time, then there's probably something to those complaints, even if we cannot quite put a handle on it ourselves. At a minimum, they deserve to be taken seriously and with respect. The problem with a game like Runewars is that with a small playerbase, when do you have enough evidence that something is actually OP? You might not ever have enough.

Second, I think there's a good distinction drawn here between local games and the big tournament scene. Our local players have all adapted to each other and now we see much more 6-5, 7-4, and 8-3 games. I'll still 9 or 10 occasionally, but they've gotten better at minimizing points. For tournaments, you need steady and great results for the entirety of the tournament. As a game, Runewars has much more game parity. 6.6 average points landed you in the finals, and I suspect there were a lot more 6-5 to 8-3 results. Getting those 10-1s is tough. Some of that may be the competitive landscape needs to adjust for the larger tournaments: How do I build a list that can reliably get me 9s and 10s while keeping my losses down?

As someone who plays both Latari and Uthuk, I know in general that I can put up higher point scores with Uthuk than Latari. My sense is that Latari/Waiqar/Daqan are pretty balanced vis-a-vis each other, and will produce solid 7-4s unless your ability is simply much greater than your opponent's. My sense is if I'd win consistently 7-4 with Latari, I'd 9/10 consistently with Uthuk, and when I'd lose 7-4, I might have won 6-5 with Uthuk. Again, with all respect to the players. I'd suspect Church could have made top-4 with his final regional Waiqar list as well, and probably could have built a Daqan or Latari list that he liked and also made top-4. And from reading the posts by other top-4 players, they also could have done equally well. Still, having played a couple of different factions and tried out some different things, I do think I get better margin off of Uthuk. And one telling thing in the tournament is that nothing about the Uthuk plans were necessarily new. Everyone knew exactly what they could do and perfectly enough time to plan against the predominate Uthuk list archetypes. I was fully expecting someone to work out Latari especially, but certainly Waiqar look to be in a good spot, and Daqan has always struck me as solid. I also think that one key of Church's list is that it trades pretty well regardless. It can afford to give you 31 points for the 2x1 ST if it is in the process of killing 100 points of your own stuff. If you want to beat it, you have to find a way to trade favorably.

8 hours ago, dragonofid said:

Frankly, I would find the analysis flawed if you looked at these tournament results and used them to conclude that Uthuk is OP. A couple points:

1. Though Uthuk went 1-2-3, 4-5-6 was Waiqar-Latari-Daqan, which actually speaks to a lot of diversity in high-level lists, despite everyone still learning their new tech.

2. Church could win with a juice box tank and a snack bag of Doritos for ranged support. Whatever he plays, it's going to be in the top 4. It's impossible to conclude "because Uthuk," so I'm inclined to ignore him for the purposes of evaluating faction strength.

3. Shane makes hay out of playing the thing nobody practiced against / no one saw coming, and it really works for him (ask us about Dreamblade sometime). His list is not durable once it loses the element of surprise. In my opinion, his excellent play combined with the novelty of the list caught people unawares, but not because the build is actually good or the faction is too strong. He was also in and out of the top 4 all day, and just like I did, benefited from some lucky timing on the pairings. He had to score an 8+ victory in round 5 to make the cut, and it was close. You can hardly say his list dominated. (Tom's #4 Waiqar list eviscerated it in round 4.)

4. OK, that leaves me. I went 4-1 with four units of Spined Threshers doing ridiculous scuttling tricks. It was highly entertaining and rewarding to play. But I've also asked Shane to play it against me during testing, and I've beaten it with other factions. Is it OP? Possibly? ?‍♀️ Is it vulnerable to concentrated ranged damage? Absolutely.

So yeah, Uthuk went 1-2-3, but that's not the whole story. We need more time to develop skills with the units that have recently been released. I think the meta could be totally different by Spring.

Just a little Devils Advocate:

1) Uthuk went 1-2-3, 4-5-6 was Waiqar-Latari-Daqan.......points to Uthuk being the best and the other factions being more balanced against each other.

2) Just because a player is really good and could compete with another faction doesn't disqualify his chosen faction from being OP. The greats of any game tend to compete with the most OP faction at the championship level after all a championship is at stake. Also from my understanding Church didnt just win, he crushed everyone he faced.

3) Not much to say here as I dont know the player so I cant speak to his strategy.

4) From the sounds of it you are a very good player as well.......so again just because you can beat your Uthuk list with another faction (most likely one tooled to beat your specific list) doesnt disqualify Uthuk from being OP.

I would close with an old adage......If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck.....its probably a duck. My point being is that there has been plenty of grumbling from this community about Uthuk and it most likely points to there being at least a slight imbalance of power when it comes to Uthuk. I would also acknowledge that the new units very well may change this imbalance.....only time will tell.

As I mentioned earlier I’m not a serious Runewars player (so I’m merely observing from a distance) but I can’t see how sideways growth or additional options for the “top faction” changes the power balance at tournament level.

If none of the additions to Uthuk turns out to be more efficient then next worlds would just likely result in another dose of Spined Thresher.

New additions to Uthuk likely result in greater ability for that faction to react to meta changes driven to counter any dominance (perceived or actual)

Again all IMO from a casual player

I'd like to clarify that I'm not arguing Uthuk were not OP on release. I think it's absolutely clear that they were. I'm not even arguing they're not OP now. I just think it's too early to conclude that the new tools released in the other factions haven't fixed it, based solely on the Worlds results, due to the top player involved and the timing.

Re: Uthuk allowing a larger margin of victory, which is more advantageous at tournaments, I'd definitely like to see a tournament landscape with more objectives that affect scoring and emphasize versatility. I was disappointed when I saw points on only one objective for Worlds, especially since that one basically just rewarded complete combat victories.

2 hours ago, dragonofid said:

I'd like to clarify that I'm not arguing Uthuk were not OP on release. I think it's absolutely clear that they were. I'm not even arguing they're not OP now. I just think it's too early to conclude that the new tools released in the other factions haven't fixed it, based solely on the Worlds results, due to the top player involved and the timing.

Re: Uthuk allowing a larger margin of victory, which is more advantageous at tournaments, I'd definitely like to see a tournament landscape with more objectives that affect scoring and emphasize versatility. I was disappointed when I saw points on only one objective for Worlds, especially since that one basically just rewarded complete combat victories.

This. Objectives with more points might let other factions loose by less. I wouldn't say this tournament was won by Uthuk, it was won by Spined Threshers.

7 minutes ago, Darth Matthew said:

This. Objectives with more points might let other factions loose by less. I wouldn't say this tournament was won by Uthuk, it was won by Spined Threshers.

Just an update with some math, 52% of all points spent by Uthuk was spent on spined thresher units. Out of 5 units to choose from, the majority of the points were dumped on spined threshers.

13 minutes ago, Darth Matthew said:

This. Objectives with more points might let other factions loose by less. I wouldn't say this tournament was won by Uthuk, it was won by Spined Threshers.

I second the sentiment on objectives.

Spined threshers are a likely culprit of Uthuk being too combat efficient for the points they cost... But I also think that warsprinter is a problem. Church taking out Lord V with a nasty long range early game charge isn't the only time I've seen that upgrade do gross things. Being able to project that much threat at up to range 7 is just too much in my opinion. Add to that the ability to reform and charge 4 at init 3... I've been burned by it multiple times. Sure, it's rune dependant, but you still have to respect it because you just don't know what the runes are gonna be next round. It's difficult to play around and it's range doesn't give you much opportunity for counter play.

47 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

I second the sentiment on objectives.

Spined threshers are a likely culprit of Uthuk being too combat efficient for the points they cost... But I also think that warsprinter is a problem. Church taking out Lord V with a nasty long range early game charge isn't the only time I've seen that upgrade do gross things. Being able to project that much threat at up to range 7 is just too much in my opinion. Add to that the ability to reform and charge 4 at init 3... I've been burned by it multiple times. Sure, it's rune dependant, but you still have to respect it because you just don't know what the runes are gonna be next round. It's difficult to play around and it's range doesn't give you much opportunity for counter play.

Agreed but its not just warsprinter, its a combination of:
Berserkers having a white skill
Warsprinter turning that skill into a Unstable March via Warsprinter
Aggressive Shrieker turning that March into a charge
Being able to then take Tempered Steel so that their blue dice is more effective
Being able to add Lethal 2 at the cost of models AFTER you have rolled dice.

All of that combined is a cocktail of pure juicy destruction.

Add Rallying Shrieker/Dispatch Runner/Sim Orders Viper Legion into the mix and you have a threat 4 unit that can essentially:

Melee via Dispatch
Melee via activation, kill the unit and Warsprint into another unit
Perform a melee attack via aggressive shrieker.

That's a lot of threat 4 damage.

I can't wait until Uthuk get Blood Harvesters, imagine what they will be able to do !

Just now, Viktus106 said:

Agreed but its not just warsprinter, its a combination of:
Berserkers having a white skill
Warsprinter turning that skill into a Unstable March via Warsprinter
Aggressive Shrieker turning that March into a charge
Being able to then take Tempered Steel so that their blue dice is more effective
 Being able to add Lethal 2 at the cost of models AFTER you have rolled dice.

All of that combined is a cocktail of pure juicy destruction.

Add Rallying Shrieker/Dispatch Runner/Sim Orders Viper Legion into the mix and you have a threat 4 unit that can essentially:

Melee via Dispatch
Melee via activation, kill the unit and Warsprint into another unit
Perform a melee attack via aggressive shrieker.

That's a lot of threat 4 damage.

I can't wait until Uthuk get Blood Harvesters, imagine what they will be able to do !

I think that most of that list of "problems" are not issues if the white skill doesn't give the ability to march 4 in 25% of rounds. White skill is common on infantry and not an issue for really any other upgrade. Aggressive Shrieker is reasonably priced and easy to snipe (when in range). Tempered steel is quite fair, especially on a faction that doesn't ready upgrades very well. I find the lethal part of Berzerkers to be very strong, but also pretty fair honestly, as there is a tangeable cost in loss of figures.

Honestly, I think that making Warsprinter just always be a march 2 (not rune dependent) for the unit would be a fair change that would significantly lower it's threat range and allow for some counter-play. This way you could reasonably attempt to snipe it out before it makes a range 5 charge. Additionally, it's ability to suddenly change directions and cover along distance would be reduced. It would still be a solid upgrade, and even be more consistent, while not allow for occasionally bananas moments like charging range 6-7 into something and obliterating it.

1 hour ago, QuickWhit said:

I second the sentiment on objectives.

Spined threshers are a likely culprit of Uthuk being too combat efficient for the points they cost... But I also think that warsprinter is a problem. Church taking out Lord V with a nasty long range early game charge isn't the only time I've seen that upgrade do gross things. Being able to project that much threat at up to range 7 is just too much in my opinion. Add to that the ability to reform and charge 4 at init 3... I've been burned by it multiple times. Sure, it's rune dependant, but you still have to respect it because you just don't know what the runes are gonna be next round. It's difficult to play around and it's range doesn't give you much opportunity for counter play.

To make a point, Warsprinter is not a problem and is not a top tier choice in a vacuum. Neither is Aggresive Shrieker. Your issue is specific to both used together.

Both are very easy to snipe (1/1s). So it is fairly easy to stop that combo from triggering more than once. Due to the threat range, it is very hard to stop it from triggering at least once. Jukey does this on an extremely consistent basis. Once Aggresive has been sniped, that star becomes a rather shoddily built excuse for a DeathStar .

Terrain is a wonderful defense against this. That BerserkerStar can’t enter any terrain, so you can use smart positioning to avoid the worst of it.

That combo makes BerserkerStars bullies. They can’t stand up to an equally priced DeathStar unit. Every SpearStar I’ve seen on the table can wreck this BerserkerStar if it catches them. If a big unit ever manages to land the first hit, that Berserker Star just folds

Stun tokens are really bad for the Aggresive Warsprinter BerserkerStar. Any good way to sling those slows it down dramatically.

I’m avoiding a lot of the arguments for the time being until I can get my thoughts summarized clearly. I’m just responding to specifics for the moment.

One thing to also take into account were the deployments and objectives. I think they were heavily favored to uthuk. If we had careful approach still in there, or some objectives for not just murdering opponent, would have changed some scores.

11 minutes ago, natertot said:

One thing to also take into account were the deployments and objectives. I think they were heavily favored to uthuk. If we had careful approach still in there, or some objectives for not just murdering opponent, would have changed some scores.

The objectives matter more to me than deployments. Some objectives that force creative building would be good for the meta

41 minutes ago, Church14 said:

The objectives matter more to me than deployments. Some objectives that force creative building would be good for the meta

That's a good point. Simply cycling the objectives forces a lot of different list building. We're not trapped in the death-match-only games that X-wing suffers.

The objectives for this cycle frankly suck.

Imagine how different things might be if the tokens in Confluence and Volatile were actually worth points?

Yeah. I looked at all the objectives and deployments and realized that relentless killdozer suffered no real downsides. As long as I could stay half awake I could avoid Volatile and Sieze - as awesome as it reads - just ends up rewarding killdozers.

The king of the hil objective would have hurt my list.

31 minutes ago, Church14 said:

To make a point, Warsprinter is not a problem and is not a top tier choice in a vacuum. Neither is Aggresive Shrieker. Your issue is specific to both used together.

Both are very easy to snipe (1/1s). So it is fairly easy to stop that combo from triggering more than once. Due to the threat range, it is very hard to stop it from triggering at least once. Jukey does this on an extremely consistent basis. Once Aggresive has been sniped, that star becomes a rather shoddily built excuse for a DeathStar .

Terrain is a wonderful defense against this. That BerserkerStar can’t enter any terrain, so you can use smart positioning to avoid the worst of it.

That combo makes BerserkerStars bullies. They can’t stand up to an equally priced DeathStar unit. Every SpearStar I’ve seen on the table can wreck this BerserkerStar if it catches them. If a big unit ever manages to land the first hit, that Berserker Star just folds

Stun tokens are really bad for the Aggresive Warsprinter BerserkerStar. Any good way to sling those slows it down dramatically.

I’m avoiding a lot of the arguments for the time being until I can get my thoughts summarized clearly. I’m just responding to specifics for the moment.

Good points on potential counter play to the combo. You are correct that these two upgrades aren't a problem by themselves. I do think that (if the combo is a problem) addressing just war sprinter would be the correct way to handle it as aggressive shrieker is almost (sorry latari) a generic upgrade that probably shouldn't be changed.

Outside of your list I haven't seen another running it in a tourney, yeah, not at top tier choice in a vacuum. My personal experience with it locally may be coloring my perception of it. We commonly see it on 3x2's out here and it is still a very dangerous unit that can get value by hitting on a turn where your opponent has the initiative from huge range and then getting another swing next round while you have initiative. It usually does melt after that, but not before putting out huge damage and wiping out something of equal or more importance.

Agreed that they are easy to snipe when in range. Unfortunately they do not have to be in range to project threat. That's the issue I have.

Using terrain won't always be possible. Not sure of a reasonable way of getting a stun on it for Waiqar... corruption runes? Ultimately you have to step towards it to deal with it. My best way of dealing with it thus far has been to put a Carrion Lancer in front of it and make it deal with that first. Unfortunately it can sometimes kill the thing and then keep charging...

I'm all ears for other strategies against it... but I still think the charge at range 7 is a problem that would be more prevalent if Spined Threshers weren't so good.

Having run both church’s list and having played games against it, I don’t see the watsorinter/shrieker combo as really a problem.

First, it really is up to the runes, and the worst of it is four red runes, which natively occur 25% of the time. That’s two turns in an 8 round game, but you don’t know if those will be useful rounds. It is also worth little two rounds of the game. You just don’t know.

Finally Rune manipulation helps. Daqan and Latari can reduce four red runes to 6.25% of all rolls, or about once every two games, and maybe once every 4-8 games being meaningful.

otherwise, church is right. It absolutely melts against other faction’s stars. A 3x2 or 3x3 thst armors up plus dispatch runner would really mess with it. I think the bigger problem is being able to stand up to everything at once, because you really cannot block everything well enough. And that’s a testament to church in getting it all to land at the same time.

32 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

Having run both church’s list and having played games against it, I don’t see the watsorinter/shrieker combo as really a problem.

First, it really is up to the runes, and the worst of it is four red runes, which natively occur 25% of the time. That’s two turns in an 8 round game, but you don’t know if those will be useful rounds. It is also worth little two rounds of the game. You just don’t know.

Finally Rune manipulation helps. Daqan and Latari can reduce four red runes to 6.25% of all rolls, or about once every two games, and maybe once every 4-8 games being meaningful.

otherwise, church is right. It absolutely melts against other faction’s stars. A 3x2 or 3x3 thst armors up plus dispatch runner would really mess with it. I think the bigger problem is being able to stand up to everything at once, because you really cannot block everything well enough. And that’s a testament to church in getting it all to land at the same time.

Yeah I get that it is rune dependant... But it's not as simple as "it only works 25% of the time"... Because you do not know what round those reds will show up you have to respect it 100% of the time. It may be harder to see from the other side of the table, but your opponent will have to play around it which limits their options. Even if you never get to launch that distance 7 charge you probably got value if your opponent is playing around it. Even in deployment they have to consider where it will be placed because it could be charging you in round 1. If they are not playing around it they risk a severe setback that may be difficult to recover from.

Also, Waiqar has no rune manipulation :-(...

Again, I concede that my opinion may be colored by my local experience... Maybe we'll see more people running it in competitive settings now that Church showed high level success with it.

1 hour ago, QuickWhit said:

Yeah I get that it is rune dependant... But it's not as simple as "it only works 25% of the time"... Because you do not know what round those reds will show up you have to respect it 100% of the time. It may be harder to see from the other side of the table, but your opponent will have to play around it which limits their options. Even if you never get to launch that distance 7 charge you probably got value if your opponent is playing around it. Even in deployment they have to consider where it will be placed because it could be charging you in round 1. If they are not playing around it they risk a severe setback that may be difficult to recover from.

Also, Waiqar has no rune manipulation :-(...

Again, I concede that my opinion may be colored by my local experience... Maybe we'll see more people running it in competitive settings now that Church showed high level success with it.

It is an upgrade card that costs points, so it should do something for you. Otherwise, why take it. I've played both sides of this match-up, probably something like 10x each. This is one where I agree with Church. You have to accept that Uthuk will win their charge and prepare for it best in your list-building and deployment/movement. The four red ends up looking insane when it does something, but if I sat down and played 20 more games with it and then actually mapped out when it mattered, I doubt it would be in very many games. It is simply that when it does matter, it matters in a really big spectacular way that catches everyone's attention.

For 5 points, uthuk can flip for red runes, to help get that charge when they need it.

Im not as worried about this as i am about threshers. Anytime more than half a faction in a tournament is 1 unit, you have internal balance issues. If that faction is dominating, that unit may be causing external balance issues.

Personally I think Warsprinter, Scuttling Horror, and Insatiable Hunger are all too strong. Warsprinter and Insatiable Hunger means Uthuk can sit beyond shooting range and wait for the perfect turn to engage from extreme ranges, and also can't reliably flank the zerkstar because it threatens a reform and charge 4 at 3 init. Scuttling Horror also means you can't reliably flank. Both Scuttling and Insatiable means Uthuk also dominate terrain.

It's not that I don't think they can be countered. That isn't the determining factor of something being too strong, it is having a much higher chance to win from including a specific unit/upgrade. Those upgrades, combined with mathematically superior units in terms of damage and durability, make Uthuk feel above the curve for mobility and tricks, while forcing coin flips onto the enemy by being able to leave combat/engage from extreme distances.

Also, movement stats being on unstable is, imo, terrible design, because this is a game of maneuver, and having the most important aspect of the game have such high variance turn to turn makes planning very frustrating (especially in Waiqur, with our zero rune manipulation, although no one can afford the points/slots for rune manipulation if you don't have some mechanics that use it in your list).

I also think that Lord OP deserves the moniker, if you can't get him on the way in, he teleports where he wants at 3 the next turn and is now basically unkillable. Sure, there is stuff you can do in theory, but he's also got excessive mobility, damage and durability, and forces more coin flips onto the enemy. I think he's a very negative play experience for the person forced to deal with him, and if we're losing players due to the perceived imbalance of Uthuk, I fear Lord V will drive even more people away by feeling uncounterable.

In general, I'm worried about the health of the game. As time has passed, they've added more randomness to the game (more morale checks from more morale results/abilities, more movement on runes, things like corruption rune which takes both the randomness of runes and the morale deck), and have also added more ways to stop your opponent from interacting (higher damage = kill them before they go, and getting out of combat before initative 4 based on your choice (scuttling, lord v, faolan).

4 hours ago, Vergilius said:

It is an upgrade card that costs points, so it should do something for you. Otherwise, why take it. I've played both sides of this match-up, probably something like 10x each. This is one where I agree with Church. You have to accept that Uthuk will win their charge and prepare for it best in your list-building and deployment/movement. The four red ends up looking insane when it does something, but if I sat down and played 20 more games with it and then actually mapped out when it mattered, I doubt it would be in very many games. It is simply that when it does matter, it matters in a really big spectacular way that catches everyone's attention.

Let me first say, I apologize if my retorts are aggravating in any way. I really enjoy debate in general and (obviously) I love this game. I also appreciate the input and experience everyone else on this forum has to offer. I'm willing to accept that I might be wrong on this one. I also concede that even if warsprinter + aggressive shreiker is a problem, it is not as big a problem as Spined Threshers... but I love arguing just the same so...

To clarify my argument:

I understand (and agree) that upgrade cards should always provide value. Hopefully that value is commensurate with their cost. There are plenty of upgrades in the game for which this is not the case.

I also understand (and agree) that this combo is inconsistent.

My contention is that this particular 8 point combo provides enough active and passive value to more than make up for it's inconsistency. Additionally I believe that even an inconsistent upgrade can be too strong if the upside is severe enough and the cost is not too high. As you noted, you often have to just accept that you are getting out-charged and prepare for that. You also noted that it makes a big splash when it does work. I think these factors make it more than worth the points, especially when you include the value it brings when it doesn't get 4 reds.

Whatever side of the argument you fall on, I think there are some reasonable questions to ask around the combo:

How many points of value does it provide when it doesn't catch the 4 runes in a relevant moment?

How many points would you pay for an upgrade that has a large impact when there are 4 red runes AND the unit is properly positioned?

Can an upgrade be too strong to be balanced solely by making it inconsistent?

Call the combo 13 points, and you can reflip runes for red twice.

On a 6 tray block, this makes a mockery of any mobility based opponent, with the reform and charge. Chances for a flank charge is very high.

Imo, best solution would be to change its trigger to green runes. Much harder to get the long charge, and the long charge isnt as long. Or change aggressive to only modify your main dial.

Either way, i believe this to be a lessor issue to the spined threshers.

4 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

Let me first say, I apologize if my retorts are aggravating in any way.

Not at all. I apologize if anything I've written comes across aggressive, as well.

It seems that the thread has settled on:

1. Spined Threshers are a bigger problem. We've had a lot less discussion of them, probably because a good portion of the community almost takes that for granted.

2. Maybe some form of Warsprinter/Aggressive Shrieker, and certainly @Darth Matthew 's point about adding 5 points for Bloodfire Witch, allows that combo to be much more consistent. Bloodfire Witch is a single token, since the trigger is "either," not "both," but still. If Uthuk has brought Bloodfire Witch and the opponent has not, then the odds because 0 red runes: 12.5% of the time, 2 red runes 37.5% of the time, and 4 red runes 50% of the time. That is to say that it will trigger meaningfully over 80% of the time.

I think there's some merit to seeing how the new upgrades and units play out. Some of the difficulty is while we have a strong suspicion that something is off, the thread shows clearly that we've got pretty serious disagreement as to where and how much, and that's before we take into account everyone's fixes. Honestly, I'd rather have costing adjustments and keep the abilities the same.