ProtoPersona said:

The question could be
"Is using a glyph to go to town in RtL a movement action?"

This part is not entirely clear. It is strongly implied (no) but not explicitly stated either way anywhere.

Everything else is very clear already, people just don't like it and so refuse to accept it.
Every piece of logic trying to get around the simple facts and saying monkeys can not use a glyph in RtL has contained large basic flaws.

Using a glyph was not specifically banned in Vanilla.

Of course it was. Using glyphs or stairs, opening doors or chests etc. was all explicitly banned for monkeys in vanilla. There is no such thing as a movement action than can be performed. No hero can say "I perform a movement action" and then it is clear within the game rules what he wants to do. He has to say "I open the door". Of course, the type of actions was bundled under the term "movement actions" as a class to make things easier and rules shorter.

What would be the consequences of allowing a monkey to glyph?

First, may a monkey restock exactly as a hero, i.e. buy potions, go to the market and buy treasure, receive healing in the temple?

Second, what happens if the heros complete or flee the dungeon while one of them is a monkey in Tamalir? A monkey marker is not a lingering effect token that would simply be removed after the end of the dungeon. There are no turns on which the monkey can discard his last wound token to be re-transformed. So, by RAW would he start the next dungeon/encounter (may be with several weeks of travel before that) still as a monkey? Would the monkey be able to obtain a Rumor in the Tavern or receive Trait, Skill or even Secret Training? Be allowed to spend XP to buy Tamalir upgrades? Be allowed to freely trade items with other heros while on the overland map?

These are all follow-up questions that need to be answered if you would allow a monkey to glyph.

Btw, the question "Is using a glyph in RtL a movement action" is a really bad one. It only matters for transformed heros as far as I can see, so why would we want to probably mislead FFG staff when asking the question? At least add a sentence like "This is important for Transformed heros" or something like that.

Every piece of logic trying to get around the simple facts and saying monkeys can not use a glyph in RtL has contained large basic flaws.

Corbon, could you please accept that your "logic" is not the only one in the world? You are trying to force your "logic" opinion through again.

Parathion said:

No it was not explicitly banned. Doing movement actions was (is) banned. There was no ban of glyph use per se. Glyph use was banned only by dint of being a (banned) movement action.
Therefore, if it ceases being a movement action it ceases being banned.

I'm not sure what the rest of the paragraph quoted meant or intended to convey...

I am perfectly happy to accept logic from any source. What I am not happy to accept is people whole create faulty logic chains that are simply wrong, propagating error.
Paraphrasing is dangerous. Insisting on a paraphrase (glyph use in vanilla is explicitly banned) being more accurate than the correct phraseology (glyph use is not banned, movement actions are banned. Therefore in vanilla, glyph use, as a movement action, is indirectly banned) despite the errors being pointed out is simply wrong.
Its not just the words that are wrong, it is the depth of meaning that changes significantly, which is why getting the wording right is important in this case.

FWIW I don't think this is terribly important. It almost never comes up and if it does it is almost impossible for it to be longer than a turn.

As for the follow up questions, those are in fact quite interesting, at least the 'end of dungeon type questions. Monkey markers however are lumped in with lingering effects in hero death (DJitD pg18 ...In addition, any lingering effects (such as burning, webs, poison, or transformation into a monkey) are immediately removed...) and would use this precedent for RtL/SoB.
However, we already have that situation when a monkey enters a portal (which is more likely than a monkey using a glyph by some margin), so those questions are not exactly a problem of the glyph use question.

The restock though, that is simple. Just play as read and a monkey is not restricted from restocking. He is a hero and not required to do any of the things he is banned from while in monkey form. Technically in vanilla a monkey can shop (its not a movement action IIRC, but it never comes up because the monkey can't get to town.
As for suspension of disbelief, 'tis no worse than Soar. Just another minor issue related to keeping the game simple and clean from endless 'exceptions'.

I'm not sure what the rest of the paragraph quoted meant or intended to convey...

See, that´s one of the points in my logic that your logic is not able to grasp, obviously. That doesn´t make my chain of reasoning wrong.

You cannot ban something that does not exist. Movement actions do not exist as something you can do as a player. In my four years of playing Descent never anyone attempted such a thing as a movement action. They opened doors and chest, used glyphs and so on, of course, but movement actions? Never. As I said earlier, the class of movement actions was obviously introduced to make the rules shorter and easier to understand.

If FFG wouldn´t have classified these actions in the way they did, the term "Monkeys may not perform movement actions" would paraphrase to "Monkeys may not use glyphs or stairs, open doors or chests, etc." with absolutely no impact on things that happen on the table in a vanilla game.

What would your opinion then be on allowing monkeys the use of glyphs in RtL?

As for the follow-up questions, I think it is dangerous to compare hero death (which removes all lingering effects, including Poison, Curse, and restores health to full) and heros ending a dungeon (which removes lingering effects except Poison, Curse, and does not restore health). But still a good catch that being transformed was lumped together with other lingering effects, which for me is just another example of inconsistent rule writing.

"It is unreasonable because it relies on a vanilla rule that has been replaced in RtL."
It's only unreasonable if you think the rulebook writer(s) knew the consequences of altering the glyph mechanics. But there's no evidence the rulebook writer(s) ever considered monkeys in any part of the RtL rules.

"it was not explicitly banned."
Corbon, glyph use was explicitly banned . Explicit means "fully and clearly defined or formulated". Glyph use being prohibited by monkeys was clearly defined. However, you are correct that glyph use was not specifically banned ; rather, movement actions were categorically banned.
"it is the depth of meaning that changes significantly, which is why getting the wording right is important"

"Paraphrasing is dangerous."
With the rules as poorly written as they are, I assert that reading the rules literally is even more dangerous. Insisting on a literal reading leads to nonsensical conclusions like:
- Fatigue can be spent on movement actions but not used for actual movement.
- Dragons cannot move forward.
And whether you're a fan of paraphrasing or not, it's a necessity when a rule is written too poorly for a reader to easily understand, which is not an infrequent occurrence with this game.

"Technically in vanilla a monkey can shop"
I disagree. Page 9 of the JitD rules tells us about movement:
"Figures may move into any adjacent space (including diagonal spaces) for 1 movement point each"
Next, there are some rules defining when figures can attack, what they can or cannot move through, etc. Then the following:
"Players can also choose to spend their movement points on performing actions instead of moving"
This seems to say that movement points may either be spent on "movement" or "movement actions". Shopping is clearly not space-to-space movement... doesn't that make it a movement action?
(Yes, I know the movement section does not explicitly say that movement points may only be spent on "movement" or "movement actions", but it seems a bit of a stretch to imagine there's a third - unmentioned - group of "non-movement non-actions that happen to cost movement points".)
Also, note that while shopping is not listed on the chart in the JitD "Movement Actions" section, it is listed in the "Movement Costs" chart at the end of the WoD rules. And nearly everything else on that chart is also on the chart from the JitD rules.

"Interestingly a monkey may not move back to the dungeon from town in RtL because the glyph movement rules in RtL are the same coming from town as they are in vanilla."
This reasoning is inconsistent with the idea that vanilla monkeys can shop. The movement actions chart includes "Move from a glyph to town (or vice versa)" , but in RtL you are not moving from town to a glyph; you are moving from Tamalir to a glyph. Who knows what the parenthetical "as normal" means in the RtL rules, since there's no precedent for how it works to take a glyph from Tamalir to the dungeon. Later in the RtL rules:
"A hero who begins a game turn in Tamalir can" ... "spend a movement point to return to the game board via an activated glyph"
Yes, it costs a movement point, but is it a movement action? If so, then shopping should also be a movement action.

"Is using a glyph to go to town in RtL a movement action?"
I agree that this is a bad question. If we don't indicate why it matters, we'll just be wondering later if the FAQ editor knew the ramifications of the answer or if it was a thoughtless response.

Corbon said:

No. It is simpler.

Here is another rule that lets us deduce whether monkeys can use Glyphs or not:

SoB rulebook, p. 38: " Villagers have one armor and six wounds, and are immune to traps, but can be attacked by monsters. They cannot attack,
perform movement actions other than moving through glyphs, or carry items ."

"They cannot [...] perform movement actions other than moving through glyphs" means that moving through a Glyph is indeed a movement action. We all know that it costs no MP.

Reminder of the question and answer above:

Q: Can a monkey perform "movement actions" which cost no MP?
A: No.

In campaign mode, moving through a Glyph is a movement action which costs no MP. A monkey cannot perform a movement action which costs no MP, so it cannot move through a Glyph.

See? No Venn diagrams. No areas A to F. Just simple, easy to understand and flawless logic.

Ispher said:

Sold.

Mahkra,
lots of good points, especially the explicitly/specifically - my error, though I'd content the meaning was still clear.
Thank you for an interesting discussion. That certainly works better than moronic assertions that Movement Actions do not exist!

Lucky you, Corbon, that Ispher found this unambiguous chain of reasoning.

Moronic? I kindly ask you to watch your wording here, especially since you were still not able to understand what I wanted to convey by stating that movement actions do not exist as something that a player can actually do .

I understand what you're saying, Parathion, but the reason you can't "do a movement action" is that 'Movement Actions' is the name of an entire class of actions, not any of the individual ones. Similarly, the OL can never "play an Overlord Card"; he can play Rage, Dark Charm, etc. If he just says "I play an OL card" that doesn't really mean anything.

Corbon, I admit I was nitpicking a bit with the explicit/specific. And to your credit, you did originally use the right word; you were just taken off line when someone objected.

BTW, does anyone else think "vanilla monkeys" sounds like a tasty dessert item? Or perhaps an emo band?