41 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

It means you do BOTH and make scenery, to me. If all I care about is the strategy, there's a ton of games out there that use little cardboard chits on a map.

I haven't seen any that:

A. Have rules that I consider good

B. Are Star Wars

C. People actually play

The only games I've ever seen like you describe are historical board games that I've never actually seen anyone play and that have rules that are overly complex and simulationist for my taste.

The miniatures are cool, and I do paint them sometimes, but if I don't feel like painting them then I don't need people telling me I'm lazy for not wanting to do so. The miniatures also draw in people who are jonesing for that kind of stuff, so the game attracts both wargamers and those who are more interested in the artistic side. If a person was a great artist and bought the minis to paint, no one would give him a hard time about not actually playing the game. However, if someone is a great strategist and wins a tournament with unpainted models, people will literally insult him. He might not even be welcome at certain tournaments, although I get that at those events the point is to cultivate a certain look because they're going to be taking pictures and stuff.

To be clear, while I think it would be NICE to have options available to convert support units to match corps trooper types, I hardly think it’s necessary.

As noted by someone else, this is hardly the first time we’ve had non-thematic sculpts as our only option. When WotC did their Star Wars minis, they sculpted a snowy rock on the base of the probe droid, which looks very out of place when fighting your way through an imperial base. The e-web was again snowtroopers only.

As a hobby war game, Legion invites hobbyists to come up with their own conversions. Making conversions not sold by the publisher is a tradition in hobby war gaming. Before GW produced any cavalry units for the elves, many gamers had already sat down with tiny saws, putty and green stuff to convert elves to horse mounted units.

I’m too lazy for that. If the company doesn’t provide conversion bits, I’ll either use the unit as is, find a substitute, or simply skip that unit. In the E-web case, Imperial Assault offered me a useable substitute.

I would not call this a failure on FFG’s part by any means. They’re making recognizable units for Star Wars fans, and given the enthusiasm for Hoth engendered by people’s love of Empire, it’s understandable that they made some units theme to the Battle of Hoth.

I’m beyond certain that there are A LOT of Hoth tables that will welcome Hoth themed minis.

I personally believe FFG should go Ham on expansions to a certain degree. I want to roll blue balls across the table with bombad general Binks.

I'll only call Legion a failure if we don't get Naval troopers.

Other than that, they're doing ok.

2 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

I personally believe FFG should go Ham on expansions to a certain degree. I want to roll blue balls across the table with bombad general Binks.

There are two armies I would love to have.

CW era Gungan army with Jar Jar as the commander... and an ewok army that can be played independent of the rebel faction. complete with rock catapults, log traps and rock dropping fliers...

10/10 would invest an inappropriate amount

I think the Imperials look all the same, or in the same theme. The rebels are a hodgepodge of different stuff, but isn’t that the point?

Arent the rebels supposed to be getting whatever they can, and making due? The fact that they have similar stuff is better than a rebellion could hope for (yeah, yeah rebellions are built... blah, blah).

I do feel for those people who make that amazing table that is a specific environment, then have to field an incongruent piece like a fleet trooper on a Hoth table. But by that same token should they make a snowie version of fleet Troopers, or a desert, etc? In a normal military you would get just that, but again we are talking a poorly funded rebellion. If you want theme, think of it that way next time you play. The rebellion prioritized bacta and bandages, not proper uniforms.

Then again, maybe you could make little coats for them, but only if you’re really good at sewing.????

I just though, if you want real theme, especially where environment is concerned, shouldn’t the whole table of a Hoth terrain be difficult?

Doing that will highlight the uses of having primarily or only Snowtroopers.

Or shouldn’t a forested area be difficult terrain with patches that are clear?

Anyway, all that being said, I always thought it was odd that a Snowtrooper couldn’t have a DLT-19. Is it not affective in the cold?

It would be super easy to sculpt up some long sleeves and a fur lined collar on a fleet trooper with a little green stuff. That is the thing. People are complaining that this is "not a hobby game" because ffg isn't releasing premade variants of units but that ignores the actual "hobby" practice of converting miniatures!

Thinking about a way to include snowtroopers in a themed army, I have seen mentioned in the wookiepedia that there are some units called flametroopers that wear snowtrooper armour and have some red stripes in the helmets and the armor... are they somewhat "cannon"??

I mean, are they some kind of invention with little to no background or a real unit from the lore?

I say this simply because if you can include them in a "regular" army that is not deployed on a frozen planet, the level of realism is increased: it is a unit that wears snowtrooper armour to protect them from the potential devastation of their own weapons, flamethrowers. It is a very similar concept to that of First order flametroopers, that appear even in desert planets like Jakku...

Edit: I have found the entry in the wookiepedia, and it seems that the unit was deployed in a damp planet, having the look of a snowtrooper, deployed in a planet without a low temperature. That would justify the presence of units like this in any environment:

1- They wear snowtrooper armour to provide protection against flames.

2- They wear flamethrowers, like the unit in the game.

Other units, such as Hoth rebel troopers, are still beyond justification, in my humble opinion...

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 3:04 PM, arnoldrew said:

I haven't seen any that:

A. Have rules that I consider good

B. Are Star Wars

C. People actually play

The only games I've ever seen like you describe are historical board games that I've never actually seen anyone play and that have rules that are overly complex and simulationist for my taste.

The miniatures are cool, and I do paint them sometimes, but if I don't feel like painting them then I don't need people telling me I'm lazy for not wanting to do so. The miniatures also draw in people who are jonesing for that kind of stuff, so the game attracts both wargamers and those who are more interested in the artistic side. If a person was a great artist and bought the minis to paint, no one would give him a hard time about not actually playing the game. However, if someone is a great strategist and wins a tournament with unpainted models, people will literally insult him. He might not even be welcome at certain tournaments, although I get that at those events the point is to cultivate a certain look because they're going to be taking pictures and stuff.

I play this:

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3548/assault-hoth-empire-strikes-back

Prepainted, and just 10 pages of rules

Snowtroopers on the desert planet of Jedha:

Note that the rebels are not wearing cold weather gear here. The "snowtrooper" uniform is used to protect from a variety of hostile weather conditions in this case, massive sandstorms.

"Hoth" uniforms on the tropical planet of Scarif:

Sgt. Melshi and many others in Rogue One wear pieces of "hoth" gear. You can paint those Hoth jackets blue or brown and they will look just fine.

6 hours ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

Snowtroopers on the desert planet of Jedha:

Note that the rebels are not wearing cold weather gear here. The "snowtrooper" uniform is used to protect from a variety of hostile weather conditions in this case, massive sandstorms.

"Hoth" uniforms on the tropical planet of Scarif:

Sgt. Melshi and many others in Rogue One wear pieces of "hoth" gear. You can paint those Hoth jackets blue or brown and they will look just fine.

Great!!!! Thanks a lot, I know that a lot of people don’t care at all, but to me is important to have a believable army.

?

Hey OP, I get it. One of the issues is also that Star Wars itself (canon, at least) doesn’t have themed armies, so there isn’t much of a way to have FFG make one.

But still, we as the hobbyist can make one, if we work at it.

Generally speaking, no company makes conversion bits. It's even fairly rare for GW, who generally only does it when they've found a way to market marines with a different paint scheme. They're even rapidly in the process of dumping a lot of their conversion line from Forge World. Conversion kits add SKU bloat and as much as people think they want it, when they're actually released and people are asked to pay another $10 for every unit they buy to get the conversion kit for it, they balk. There definitely IS a market for it of course, but when you're making plastic models, you're relying heavily on fairly high volumes of sales. That's why the conversion bit market is largely made up of small independent companies doing made to order parts out of resin or metal. Those are low volume sales models that appeal to the size of market that actively wants to spend extra money to have a unique army.

Also, yes; most models look perfectly thematic with a consistent color and base scheme. I balked on the Snowtroopers myself, but ultimately decided to slightly tweak the colors and put them on the same base as the rest of my army and yeah... they look fine. Most of the reason the Laser Cannon looks like it belongs on Hoth is that parts of it are painted white and its on a snowy base. Different colors, different background.... looks just fine.

On 11/2/2018 at 10:04 AM, arnoldrew said:

If a person was a great artist and bought the minis to paint, no one would give him a hard time about not actually playing the game.

Because if they don't play it doesn't impact anyone else. Now, if they played, but wasted their opponent's time by knowingly making bad moves, and laughing about it, they'd probably be given a hard time.

On 11/2/2018 at 10:04 AM, arnoldrew said:

However, if someone is a great strategist and wins a tournament with unpainted models, people will literally insult him.

Unpainted armies are an eyesore and indicate a lack of respect for your opponent's experience. Playing with unpainted models is insulting his opponent, so yes, they might insult him right back.

On 11/2/2018 at 10:04 AM, arnoldrew said:

He might not even be welcome at certain tournaments, although I get that at those events the point is to cultivate a certain look because they're going to be taking pictures and stuff.

There's really nothing keeping someone with time to go to tournaments from having 800 points of Legion stuff painted. Now, if they want 3 of the unit that was released yesterday so they can pay to win, that's something else. Those people will never have painted armies because new releases come out faster than they paint, and give unpainted armies a bad name. Maybe if it wasn't for the rules-exploitative unpainted armies that have sadly become the norm in other games, certain people wouldn't mind as much. But overall I think unpainted armies are in the (vast) majority so, it's hard to feel bad for the dominant subset of the population.

1 minute ago, TauntaunScout said:

Because if they don't play it doesn't impact anyone else. Now, if they played, but wasted their opponent's time by knowingly making bad moves, and laughing about it, they'd probably be given a hard time.

Unpainted armies are an eyesore and indicate a lack of respect for your opponent's experience. Playing with unpainted models is insulting his opponent, so yes, they might insult him right back.

There's really nothing keeping someone with time to go to tournaments from having 800 points of Legion stuff painted. Now, if they want 3 of the unit that was released yesterday so they can pay to win, that's something else. Those people will never have painted armies because new releases come out faster than they paint, and give unpainted armies a bad name. Maybe if it wasn't for the rules-exploitative unpainted armies that have sadly become the norm in other games, certain people wouldn't mind as much. But overall I think unpainted armies are in the (vast) majority so, it's hard to feel bad for the dominant subset of the population.

Looks like you're the exact type of person I'm talking about. Maybe some of us find arts and crafts to be grindingly miserable. If you're insulted by me wanting to spend my limited free time (thanks for telling me how much time I have, by the way) actually playing a game I enjoy instead of pursuing artistic endeavors that I'm neither good at nor enjoy, then I guess we can just never play each other and prevent either of us from having a bad time. I would have no issue if a person told me that they will wait for another opponent since they don't want to play against someone with an unpainted army, that's their prerogative. However to say that I'm "insulting" you with my "eyesore" just shows that instead of just having a different opinion, you are criticizing me for how I enjoy the game and, frankly, acting like an obnoxious *******. In the end I know it doesn't really affect me since everyone in my local Legion community is pretty cool, so you must not be a part of it.

P.S. Every now and then I manage to take up a brush without it burning my hand, so any army I play is generally half-painted. However, it's the principle of the thing. I just can't stand people who insist that those who don't enjoy their hobby in the exact right way (and even insert entire other hobbies into it) are doing it wrong, or worse, are actually immoral for enjoying it how they do.

19 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

Looks like you're the exact type of person I'm talking about. Maybe some of us find arts and crafts to be grindingly miserable. If you're insulted by me wanting to spend my limited free time (thanks for telling me how much time I have, by the way) actually playing a game I enjoy instead of pursuing artistic endeavors that I'm neither good at nor enjoy, then I guess we can just never play each other and prevent either of us from having a bad time. I would have no issue if a person told me that they will wait for another opponent since they don't want to play against someone with an unpainted army, that's their prerogative. However to say that I'm "insulting" you with my "eyesore" just shows that instead of just having a different opinion, you are criticizing me for how I enjoy the game and, frankly, acting like an obnoxious *******. In the end I know it doesn't really affect me since everyone in my local Legion community is pretty cool, so you must not be a part of it.

P.S. Every now and then I manage to take up a brush without it burning my hand, so any army I play is generally half-painted. However, it's the principle of the thing. I just can't stand people who insist that those who don't enjoy their hobby in the exact right way (and even insert entire other hobbies into it) are doing it wrong, or worse, are actually immoral for enjoying it how they do.

If your army is half painted or unpainted, I’d happily encourage you to borrow some of my painted stuff to fill out as much of your army with painted models as possible- I see that as a compromise. That way, we both get to play, I get to see two mostly painted armies, and you don’t have anyone insulting your unpainted minis.

Of course, I doubt we’ll ever be in the same neighborhood to play, so it’s a purely hypothetical scenarios. On the other hand, my regular opponent has no minis at all, painted or not, so I’m providing all minis for both sides of any battle I currently play...

I find this topic of unpainted minis being insulting insanely ridiculous to put it nicely. This attitude is elitist thinking and not good for the community at all. This has no bearing on the game being played. Unless you are going to tournaments where the rules state that all or a percentage of your army must be painted. I’ve been in the hobby for well over 30 years and I always paint my armies because I enjoy it. Someone’s inability or lack of will to paint does nothing to hinder the game.

2 minutes ago, miridor said:

I find this topic of unpainted minis being insulting insanely ridiculous to put it nicely. This attitude is elitist thinking and not good for the community at all. This has no bearing on the game being played. Unless you are going to tournaments where the rules state that all or a percentage of your army must be painted. I’ve been in the hobby for well over 30 years and I always paint my armies because I enjoy it. Someone’s inability or lack of will to paint does nothing to hinder the game.

I couldn't agree more!

4 hours ago, miridor said:

I find this topic of unpainted minis being insulting insanely ridiculous to put it nicely. This attitude is elitist thinking and not good for the community at all. This has no bearing on the game being played. Unless you are going to tournaments where the rules state that all or a percentage of your army must be painted. I’ve been in the hobby for well over 30 years and I always paint my armies because I enjoy it. Someone’s inability or lack of will to paint does nothing to hinder the game.

I can't draw a straight line with a ruler and I have lots of commitments but somehow my armies are painted. But saying an unpainted army at a tournament is no big deal is like saying it doesn't matter if I want to go to the tournament after not showering for a month. Who are you to judge me for your elitist sense of smell? Maybe I really don't have time to shower. Maybe I can't afford soap. You don't know. It shouldn't hurt your gaming experience as long as I follow the game rules correctly.

To be clear I hold things to very easygoing standards: Darth Vader spray painted black, with his lightsaber painted red and his base painted brown, takes about 10 minutes is over 25% of a painted army. I will never criticize someone* in casual games or who at least tries to paint their stuff. But to not even try to paint a tournament army? Unthinkable. In casual games, to use unpainted figures when you DO own a fully painted army is strange.

*OK I do criticize my friend "Greg" for having unpainted armies. That guy has an art degree, one job, and no kids. C'mon.

All I can say is you can accept that people want to play the game different ways and everyone can play games or you can gatekeep and only some people can play games. Making people feel bad for pushing toy soldiers around the field to their own standards is way ruder than someone playing a grey army. It's ok to have personal standards but pushing those standards on others is wrong.

And equating an unpainted army with a hygeine or behavioral issue is insulting to all parties in the equivocation and facetious in the extreme.

But I fear this topic has gone off the rails.

I have played games unpainted against unpainted opponenets. Usually after just buying something and wanting to try it out. I find that i dont care whether or not they’re painted.

2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

I can't draw a straight line with a ruler and I have lots of commitments but somehow my armies are painted. But saying an unpainted army at a tournament is no big deal is like saying it doesn't matter if I want to go to the tournament after not showering for a month. Who are you to judge me for your elitist sense of smell? Maybe I really don't have time to shower. Maybe I can't afford soap. You don't know. It shouldn't hurt your gaming experience as long as I follow the game rules correctly.

To be clear I hold things to very easygoing standards: Darth Vader spray painted black, with his lightsaber painted red and his base painted brown, takes about 10 minutes is over 25% of a painted army. I will never criticize someone* in casual games or who at least tries to paint their stuff. But to not even try to paint a tournament army? Unthinkable. In casual games, to use unpainted figures when you DO own a fully painted army is strange.

*OK I do criticize my friend "Greg" for having unpainted armies. That guy has an art degree, one job, and no kids. C'mon.

I am glad that you have good time management skills, yay for you. However to get the reaction of being insulted because someone does not have a painted army is a very extreme reaction that seem to come from being a bit immature. We are all adults, for the most part anyway and we should act like it. We all play and enjoy this game so to tell someone that they need to enjoy this game in the same manner you enjoy this game again immature. As I stated unless you are at a tournament that require your army to be painted you have no ground to stand on.

Comparing not having a painted army to your personal hygiene has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I know you are trying to be witty but it just falls short, doesn't work and it brought nothing to the discussion at all.

9 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

Looks like you're the exact type of person I'm talking about. Maybe some of us find arts and crafts to be grindingly miserable. If you're insulted by me wanting to spend my limited free time (thanks for telling me how much time I have, by the way) actually playing a game I enjoy instead of pursuing artistic endeavors that I'm neither good at nor enjoy, then I guess we can just never play each other and prevent either of us from having a bad time. I would have no issue if a person told me that they will wait for another opponent since they don't want to play against someone with an unpainted army, that's their prerogative. However to say that I'm "insulting" you with my "eyesore" just shows that instead of just having a different opinion, you are criticizing me for how I enjoy the game and, frankly, acting like an obnoxious *******. In the end I know it doesn't really affect me since everyone in my local Legion community is pretty cool, so you must not be a part of it.

P.S. Every now and then I manage to take up a brush without it burning my hand, so any army I play is generally half-painted. However, it's the principle of the thing. I just can't stand people who insist that those who don't enjoy their hobby in the exact right way (and even insert entire other hobbies into it) are doing it wrong, or worse, are actually immoral for enjoying it how they do.

As a GCW purist, I’d be far more offended by an opponent who painted off-scheme, and not at all offended by one who simply didn’t paint at all.

Then again, the minis only belong to the owner, so it doesn’t really concern any busibodies what someone does with their own minis, right?

6 hours ago, miridor said:

However to get the reaction of being insulted because someone does not have a painted army is a very extreme reaction that seem to come from being a bit immature.

I've never actually witnessed someone be criticized in a store or tournament for their unpainted or poorly painted models. But Arnolddrew apparently has and I'm going off why that might be. And I don't think I've ever played in one of the above settings with a majority of painted armies. I don't know how severe of a comment from someone it takes to consider that the tournament winner with unpainted models has been insulted, but if it's low enough bar, then we can also guarantee that the player who comes in dead last will get insulted too. Although the biggest reason I like painted armies is, as I've said many times, they're a hedge against "pay to win". So people might see an unpainted army and draw conclusions of that, and insult Arnoldrew's proposed tournament winner?

6 hours ago, miridor said:

Comparing not having a painted army to your personal hygiene has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I know you are trying to be witty but it just falls short, doesn't work and it brought nothing to the discussion at all.

Like poor hygiene, painting the models can be about the experience you create for your opponent. Two painted armies on nice scenery looks awesome. You can choose to create that cool experience for someone else... or not... it says something about where your opponent's experience ranks in your priorities. Like using unpainted figures, one could also be that annoying person who never remembers their dice & ruler and is constantly borrowing stuff. Or the player who never has their army list figured out beforehand so the games start late. None of this is illegal, but it does get old when the same person keeps doing it over and over. Or, when the same person in the group has played the same faction for several years and STILL doesn't have a painted army.

I used to think it was silly to require painted stuff until I figured out how easy it was to paint stuff up to a standard that looks nice from 3 feet away. It's really, really, easy. Especially with Legion models. If you spray paint stormtroopers white, paint their guns black and their bases brown, they'll look pretty good among the scenery. Rebel troopers can be sprayed green, get a dot of pink or brown on their faces, and get their guns and boots painted black, and they'll look really cool during a game.

"Painted armies" is such a low bar, that to call it elitist sounds to me like saying rules that require addition and subtraction is elitist because we aren't all professional math teachers and engineers.