@ryanabt I ain't quoting that long response....lol. You make very fair points.

As I think I've mentioned, I'm a very long time player of mini games (warhammer in both flavors since 1988, FoW, Warmahordes, you name it). I understand where you are coming from, believe me.

The issue is, and of course this is my opinion, that, as you point, this is not designed as a 'hobby' game. It's designed as a game, period, and one FFG can run events with, because mo' money.

I was blown away by how so many people took to modding the ever loving day lights out of a variety of models, and amused by the rage over certain things ( 'what do you mean, I can't cut the stand on my T47 in half, or squat my ATST down??? Raaaaggeeee!!!!!'). But in the end, FFG just wants to make that money. The game is not, IMO, designed as a hobbyist/collectors/modder game. And the reason FFG puts out all the different troop types is, again, money. Why put out slightly different rules (flamethrower, for instance) on Stormtroopers, when they can put it on a totally different unit and make you spend $25 for it? It's marketing, lol.

I think the issue with "theme" will resolve itself with time. Remember 40k has been around for, what, 40 years now? Legion has only been around for 6mnts. As FFG makes more models, units, factions, etc it'll be a lot easier to create theme armies. I really want Scarriff/shore troopers, sand troopers, inferno squadron, etc, too and as long as the game sells I assume I'll get them. But time is my foil for the moment...

11 hours ago, ryanabt said:

Thanks, I recognize that painting/modding can go a long way to fitting a theme; nevertheless, coming from a hobby perspective, I find it odd for the default to be unthematic and require anyone wanting themed fit to go out of their way and, often, spend extra money (storm trooper legs/arms for e-web, etc.)

I think you hit the nail on the head with the last statement. It is not a hobby game. I, for whatever wrongheaded reason, believed it would be otherwise.

Out of curfiousity, what exactly is your "hobby perspective?" My personal hobby perspective for a game is "the company provides rules and some models, and conversion may be necessary to fit my ideal." For instance, one of the other wargames I play is Bolt Action, and while there are rules for a Finnish army, the models that are provided by Warlord are metal models in summer garb and limited poses. So I converted the entire army out of plastic kits, researching what equipment would be appropriate. I wanted a theme the game supported, and had to go out of my way and spend extra money. Additionally, Warlord Game's recent plastic releases have all had the weapons modeled attached to a specific arm, so if I don't like a particular weapon arm, such as the British Paratrooper arm holding a scoped rifle for movement, I have to spend extra money on a different kit to either purchase a metal sniper or otherwise convert, spending more money to get the parts I need.

Warhammer 40k allows you to field large numbers of plasma gunners in 10 man Imperial Guard squads, but only provide a flamethrower and grenade launcher in the "Cadian" trooper box. So I have to spend extra money to build that force.

I see FFG's choices as being "thematic" just the theme they are going for though is "what people see in the movies."

I had thoughts of multipart plastic kits when the game was first announced and was disappointed when single pose plastics were revealed. Legion in my opinion is trying to be a good introductory game, the vehicles come partially constructed, all the weapons options are in one box, and there's enough bodies to model all the possible squad builds. Remember that FFG is primarily a roleplaying, board, and card game company which happens to dabble in miniature wargames, not a wargame company dabbling in board games.

Stick with Legion, don't sell your models, the games been out less than a year, give it time and see what else is released.

1 hour ago, DarkTrooperZero said:

Stick with Legion, don't sell your models, the games been out less than a year, give it time and see what else is released.

+1

22 hours ago, ryanabt said:

That said, I realize that what many of you have said is true. This is a personal issue (albeit one for many more than just me). Some noted that I could limit myself and I certainly planned to do so. I didn't plan on purchasing snowtroopers; yet, the e-web issue blew that out of the water. All this to say, I am used to limiting myself, but with so few options this is, to me, too much to overcome and still enjoy game play.

Why do you need e-webs so bad?

Quote

I think you hit the nail on the head with the last statement. It is not a hobby game. I, for whatever wrongheaded reason, believed it would be otherwise.

Yes it is, at least the way I play it. If it's not a hobby game what is it? A TV game show? An improv theater game? It's not a boardgame or cardgame. It's a hobby wargame.

Just because it's 7 months old or so and therefore lacks as many hobby products as you'd like it to have, doesn't change what it is.

On 10/30/2018 at 1:55 AM, DarkTrooperZero said:

Would be more concerned if we had 12 different rules for the same squad of rebels so they all look the same. Boring.

Ooh! Ooh! How bout the opposite! I want them to sell a squad of regular statted stormtroopers, not elite Blizzard Force guys, in snow armor!

Not having any snowtroopers, I think the e-web will look out of place. Conveniently, though, the IA e-web looks fine, so I can use that.

As for the Rebels, I painted my fleet troopers in green instead of blue, and they fit in just fine with the Endor-style troops. As a hobby gamer, it really doesn’t bother me. Playing GW’s Lord of the Rings, I was happy to put Ithilien Rangers in support of Knights from Minas Tirith. Or even running combined armies of men and elves for a “free peoples” theme. The theme is in the mind of the gamer.

That being said, I do think it’d be nice if they offered multiple figure options for support units, like the FD and E-web, to blend with any allied corps trooper type- or use the most generalized trooper type, so as to blend with as many army lists as possible.

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 9:55 PM, Darth 2Face said:

Unlike most other miniature war games, Legion is based on an established IP. What we are getting is what appears in the movies. That may not fit with the idea of a cohesive army look, but it is consistent with the source material. For example, it may make more sense for E-webs to be manned by stormtroopers, but we only see them manned by snowtroopers in the films.

I don't consider sticking to the source material a fail. In fact, I suspect that there would be a bigger uproar if the FFG varied from the films. I prefer having my army painted to match the films, but others are free to have there own paint theme if they prefer a more thematic look. In this way, I think FFG's decision to stick with the film look is the best way to cater to both camps.

Battlefront videogames are also cohesive with the looks of the films but still gives us a ton of options of skins and diferent troops, having standard, elites, spec ops or whatever but all of them matching the environment they are in. I think nobody has complained about such a great variety, because the designs in the battlefront franchise are simply great and they have achieved a great expanded universe look that fullfills the required themed skins and stills are recognizable as "starwarsy". In my opinion the looks are not just something optional, it is mandatory for a good immersion. You can play even with unpainted figures, and corn flakes boxes as buildings, but we'll sure agree that it is way better to play with a "diorama-like" table with perfectly painted minis rather than using abstract tokens and tins, and so the way a snowtrooper looks alongside a Luke Skywalker wearing a short jacket is a problem. I want coherent miniatures, not just beautiful tokens. We shouldn't forget that FFG does make perfect photographs of beautiful units in their proper environment, I still wait for a snowtrooper in a green planet in FFG official images... they know it is important. When they show you the Atgar, it is in a white base with a snowy background, and when they show you the comandos they are in an Endor like table. But, after a year, I still don't have the possibility to play an elite unit or an artillery unit without having to buy special environment units.

Just some optional models or modular figures for the guns, even at a higher prize, would be cool. I am simply used to GW units that you can build whatever you like, multipart kits would have been perfect to allow some variety without needing a mandatory snowtrooper unit.

1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

Ooh! Ooh! How bout the opposite! I want them to sell a squad of regular statted stormtroopers, not elite Blizzard Force guys, in snow armor!

If there were multipart model kits you could field a unit with some special pose that would allow you to represent elite even wearing the same armour...

13 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Out of curfiousity, what exactly is your "hobby perspective?" My personal hobby perspective for a game is "the company provides rules and some models, and conversion may be necessary to fit my ideal." For instance, one of the other wargames I play is Bolt Action, and while there are rules for a Finnish army, the models that are provided by Warlord are metal models in summer garb and limited poses. So I converted the entire army out of plastic kits, researching what equipment would be appropriate. I wanted a theme the game supported, and had to go out of my way and spend extra money. Additionally, Warlord Game's recent plastic releases have all had the weapons modeled attached to a specific arm, so if I don't like a particular weapon arm, such as the British Paratrooper arm holding a scoped rifle for movement, I have to spend extra money on a different kit to either purchase a metal sniper or otherwise convert, spending more money to get the parts I need.

Warhammer 40k allows you to field large numbers of plasma gunners in 10 man Imperial Guard squads, but only provide a flamethrower and grenade launcher in the "Cadian" trooper box. So I have to spend extra money to build that force.

I see FFG's choices as being "thematic" just the theme they are going for though is "what people see in the movies."

I had thoughts of multipart plastic kits when the game was first announced and was disappointed when single pose plastics were revealed. Legion in my opinion is trying to be a good introductory game, the vehicles come partially constructed, all the weapons options are in one box, and there's enough bodies to model all the possible squad builds. Remember that FFG is primarily a roleplaying, board, and card game company which happens to dabble in miniature wargames, not a wargame company dabbling in board games.

But bolt action actually allows for a lot of customizing, being multipart, you can build a lot of diferent units without having to buy a special environment one. ie you can buy a UK army box, and inside you got enough pieces to field simple platoons, or you can build them with a rifle and in a prone position to build a sniper unit, or you can build artillery observers simply gluing a hand with a map on a normal soldier, or you can have officers just swapping heads or weapons... multipart plastic kits allow you for a lot of diferent choices and are even good from an economic perspetive: just design ONE sprue and people will buy it to make diferent things with it, the same we do with GW or Warlord Games plastics... and they give us environmental units but provides us with every possible option, inside the environament: ie deutsche afrika korps have their own artillery, their own officers, their own medics, their own snipers... etc.

Would you like to see an army in bolt action consistint of a yellow desert vehicle, some "normal" short pants desert units, and a special unit alongside them consisting in some leningrado winter units?

Ugly...

In Legion we got this kind of mix, it is simply ugly. And it would be easy to solve: Imagine just one "snowtroopers" sprue, allowing you to field whatever weapon combinations you want, inside a box with enough cards to use that sprues. And combined with an "e-web sprue" when you buy the e-web box... and then combine it with the "stormtrooper sprue" so you can field an e-web with stromtroopers, or scout troopers... WAY better than having fixed options...

In fact, they are SO fixed that they even design "tabs" in the pieces so you can't build the arms slightly diferent to obtain diferent poses. i really can't understand this concept. The first thing i think is that the pieces were that streamlined so that the chinese manufacturers don't build them wrong, and so, they simply took out the final process of asembly and gave us the pieces "as is" One of the best ways to achieve diferent poses is just gluing the heads or the torsos in slightly diferent positions... you can't if you don't use a knife... and it is very difficult to cut in half a mini without destroying some details, such as the holsters or the pouches in some stormtroopers, or the ponchos from the endor soldiers. They are not thought to make conversions easily. If you had a sprue, you could simply place the backpack and the special weapon in another soldier and you got two diferent special weapon soldiers. And of course you could then use some "standing" stormtrooper or scout trooper and place him in the e-web... or even use a sitting snowtrooper in a speeder bike! Way more funny and themed.

3 hours ago, MarekMandalore said:

That being said, I do think it’d be nice if they offered multiple figure options for support units, like the FD and E-web, to blend with any allied corps trooper type- or use the most generalized trooper type, so as to blend with as many army lists as possible.

It would be incredibly out of line with the rest of the line to offer purely extra parts in the box. If they were going to provide extra bodies in these boxes, then it is likely FFG would have had alternate heads for the Rebel squads. Again, the FD troops just need different paint and they'll blend right in, and just because we only see "snowtrooper" armor on Hoth does not mean that is the only environment in which it would be employed. Nor does it preclude the possibility of mixed deployments on some planet or another for any of a number of reasons. Heck, the engagement on an otherwise worthless planet could have lasted longer than the Empire expected, so there are delays in transporting sufficient cold weather armor, or reinforcements were quickly brought in without the appropriate equipment. Or a troop transport full of Snowtroopers was re-routed while in transit to a frozen world and only have their cold weather gear. As much as I don't want to reference the NT for anything related to the GCW, the First Order deploys Snowtroopers on Crait with the temperature regulators shut off. Presumably the Empire also had this option, so "snowtroopers" on a temperate planet is not completely outside the realm of possibilities.

Honestly, the prices are relatively cheap for what FFG could get away with charging, and every box has everything you need to run all the options provided. For instance, the only reason to put seven troopers in the Special Forces boxes was to provide the customers with enough bodies to run both a full squad and a Strike Team from the same box. As far as miniatures are concerned, FFG includes everything you need in a single box, without a lot of waste. Which is great for people new to miniature wargames, or who don't have a big interest in conversions. Those of us who want to convert, are going to anyway.

One benefit of the choices FFG made for the bodies to make the default build incredibly identifiable to the casual Star Wars fan who has only seen the films, and may not have any interest in other wargames. Which may encourage them to purchase the models, at the very least as display pieces.

11 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

It would be incredibly out of line with the rest of the line to offer purely extra parts in the box. If they were going to provide extra bodies in these boxes, then it is likely FFG would have had alternate heads for the Rebel squads. Again, the FD troops just need different paint and they'll blend right in, and just because we only see "snowtrooper" armor on Hoth does not mean that is the only environment in which it would be employed. Nor does it preclude the possibility of mixed deployments on some planet or another for any of a number of reasons. Heck, the engagement on an otherwise worthless planet could have lasted longer than the Empire expected, so there are delays in transporting sufficient cold weather armor, or reinforcements were quickly brought in without the appropriate equipment. Or a troop transport full of Snowtroopers was re-routed while in transit to a frozen world and only have their cold weather gear. As much as I don't want to reference the NT for anything related to the GCW, the First Order deploys Snowtroopers on Crait with the temperature regulators shut off. Presumably the Empire also had this option, so "snowtroopers" on a temperate planet is not completely outside the realm of possibilities.

I agree you can invent whatever you want to justify the look of an army, or the colors you have chosen. You can paint them red and pink and say it is a new unit dedicated to harm the eyes of their enemies, and paint the skirt of your snowtroopers as kilts and say that they are from an scottish planet. But this extremes are rare, should be the rarity, not the norm.

Of course you can justify the way you build your army, but the average army shouldn't need justifications. It should be the rare, strange, composition which needs justification, but in this game what should be the rare is the only possible way of building an army. Rarity is average.

You should have FIRST the option to try to be consistent with the contents of the movies, with the expanded universe, videogames, comics... you really have a hard job in your hands if you try to be consistent using the units provided, beacuse we hardly see snowtroopers alongside stormtroopers in any movie or source. We must agree with the facts that Snowtroopers are USUALLY deployed in extreme environmental conditions. So you NORMALLY deploy them on Hoth, in Jedha after being almost destroyed (extreme weather conditions) or in Mygeeto (frígid planet seen in episode III, where galactic marine clone soldiers appear). They provide mixed armies, and we must invent why are such units together. Shouldn't be like this.

36 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Honestly, the prices are relatively cheap for what FFG could get away with charging, and every box has everything you need to run all the options provided. For instance, the only reason to put seven troopers in the Special Forces boxes was to provide the customers with enough bodies to run both a full squad and a Strike Team from the same box. As far as miniatures are concerned, FFG includes everything you need in a single box, without a lot of waste. Which is great for people new to miniature wargames, or who don't have a big interest in conversions. Those of us who want to convert, are going to anyway.

I don't think itis more expensive to manufacture sprues. They, in fact, don't have any manipulation costs other than placing them in boxes. And once you have designed one sprue, it can be sold and used in a great range of products. You can make a "snowtrooper sprue" and sell some pieces with the e-web at zero design costs to provide the crew. Or simply make another small sprue that, with some arms and the weapon allows you to use the standard sprue to make an e-web of whatever unit you want (scout trooper, snowtrooper, sandtrooper...). This way, it isn't even a conversion, you just need some pieces from that sprue or another one, box them together, provide instructions and you are good to go. The instructions provided to build a speeder bike are not simple anyway...

41 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

One benefit of the choices FFG made for the bodies to make the default build incredibly identifiable to the casual Star Wars fan who has only seen the films, and may not have any interest in other wargames. Which may encourage them to purchase the models, at the very least as display pieces.

Display pieces? In my opinion they are not so beautiful to provide a good display piece. Are you sure people that don't play the game would buy that emperor Palpatine? That small mini with that price? Or pay for THAT Han Solo or Leia?

I'd just like to point out, this is the 4th iteration of miniature wargame e-webs, and they've ALL had a single crew choice. In D6 if we wanted anyone other than an Imperial Navy trooper to have one, we just glued them to the edge of their base (so they'd touch the e-web model, which was on it's own infantry base) and they were dubbed a heavy weapon specialist. This was the only way to make a rebel or mercenary heavy weapon, by the way.

No choices in D20, snowtrooper was it. In IA:S it's all scout troopers, all the time.

I dunno about the e-web but the atgar should be laughably easy to convert new crews for.

15 hours ago, Tubb said:

you can't if you don't use a knife... and it is very difficult to cut in half a mini without destroying some details, such as the holsters or the pouches in some stormtroopers, or the ponchos from the endor soldiers.

So back when all we had was one-piece metal miniatures, we weren't hobby gamers? Someone should have told us.

10 hours ago, Tubb said:

You should have FIRST the option to try to be consistent with the contents of the movies, with the expanded universe, videogames, comics... you really have a hard job in your hands if you try to be consistent using the units provided, because we hardly see snowtroopers alongside stormtroopers in any movie or source.

Which means the e-webs should primarily deployed with snowtroopers, since that is the main organization that uses them in canon. And we shouldn't have AT-RTs at all, and the 1.4 FD should only have Hoth troopers, and many of the heavy weapons should not be given to the units that have them. Arguably there is a very easy way to stay consistent, just don't take snowtroopers with stormtroopers or scout troopers, and then don't take e-webs with stormtroopers. You don't NEED to mix stormtroopers and snowtroopers to have an effective army, and the e-web is fine, but doesn't seem OP or auto-include. Again, if you don't want your e-webs to be manned by snowtroopers, then I'm sure there are bits on shapeways, same as what I did to get alternate heads for Rebels.

Quote

I don't think it is more expensive to manufacture sprues. They, in fact, don't have any manipulation costs other than placing them in boxes. And once you have designed one sprue, it can be sold and used in a great range of products. You can make a "snowtrooper sprue" and sell some pieces with the e-web at zero design costs to provide the crew. Or simply make another small sprue that, with some arms and the weapon allows you to use the standard sprue to make an e-web of whatever unit you want (scout trooper, snowtrooper, sandtrooper...). This way, it isn't even a conversion, you just need some pieces from that sprue or another one, box them together, provide instructions and you are good to go. The instructions provided to build a speeder bike are not simple anyway...

Sprues also require more waste plastic to be shipped. The plastic that is clipped off at the factory can be remelted and reused. Typically a different plastic is used for sprue miniatures, rather than the soft plastic that doesn't react with plastic cement that FFG is using for the miniatures. I'd imagine that designing a sprue of bits that allow for (almost) any part to be place on any body would take longer for designing, in addition to taking longer to get approval from Disney since I'd imagine they would have to approve every possible combination.

As I've said before FFG is NOT a miniatures company. They are a roleplaying, board, and card game company that happens to produce a couple lines of miniature wargames. To that end, I wouldn't be surprised if they were using the same manufacturer that they use for their game pieces.

Their miniature games are easier to get into because there is no worry about building the models "wrong." You can't assemble the models in a box in a way that they can't be fielded, or such that you don't have an appropriate model to represent the optional special weapons.

Quote

Display pieces? In my opinion they are not so beautiful to provide a good display piece. Are you sure people that don't play the game would buy that emperor Palpatine? That small mini with that price? Or pay for THAT Han Solo or Leia?

I know plenty of people that buy models just to paint them and own them, even 28mm pieces. I don't know what people would and would not buy, nor why, I was merely indicating it was a possibility. I could see someone who didn't know about the (I want to say Tamiya?) models puchasing the AT-ST and T-47 for display.

I understand what you are saying, but this point I feel it should be rather clear that for whatever reason FFG/Disney has decided on single pose models and for modeling things at least close to screen accurate. Also, given how quickly stuff sells out and how long it takes for replacements to show up, I'd rather they focused on producing entirely new sets than different models for pre-existing units.

On 10/29/2018 at 8:49 PM, ryanabt said:

I mentioned this before and was shouted down by not a few. Nevertheless, it still bothers me. So...

Why do we have such a confusion of themes for models in this game? Stormtroopers, snowtroopers (recognizing they are extreme environment troopers or whatever you want to think of them as), e-web as snowtroopers. For Rebels we have rebel troopers, fleet troopers (ok, pretend they are "marines"), and cold weather FD.

This kind of model production, while consistent with movies where there were numerous fight scenes in various locations, is horrid for creating a theme. I know I can buy or modify models to change the FD or whatever, but why in the world is there no consistent theme? This may be based off movies, but if it is trying to compete with 40k/warmahordes/etc. for the attention of hobby gamers, this is a big turn off.

because there isn't enough "there" there for FFG to actually make this a game so instead they're just using the look of the troops to justify the models. /shrug, I look forward to going back on my "I'll never play this game" when they release CIS.

4 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

So back when all we had was one-piece metal miniatures, we weren't hobby gamers? Someone should have told us.

Exactly. We historical gamers manage to create some amazing "themed" forces with variety and character without multi part, multi pose miniatures. Take a look at some of the amazing conversions people have done in the painting section on this forum. Just because FFG doesn't hold your hand it doesn't mean this isn't a hobby game.

1 hour ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

Exactly. We historical gamers manage to create some amazing "themed" forces with variety and character without multi part, multi pose miniatures. Take a look at some of the amazing conversions people have done in the painting section on this forum. Just because FFG doesn't hold your hand it doesn't mean this isn't a hobby game.

But if it is a hobby game, parts would be really welcome. I know I can cut in half a metal miniature, but not everyone is inclined or/and able to do it. I remember cutting metal arms, swapping metal heads and changing legs, but this can be much more easy to achieve if you got enough spare parts, and even better if they are plastic. My idea is not having to buy two stormtrooper boxes to obtain one diferent squad just because I have destroyed a mini to get THAT arm or THAT leg... or having to buy a stormtrooper box just to have the crew for my converted e-web.

41 minutes ago, Tubb said:

or having to buy a stormtrooper box just to have the crew for my converted e-web.

But then you'd have enough stormtroopers for the next thing that comes along! Anyways, this has happened with every other SW minis game I've played, and I think I've played 'em all. First time I've seen a reaction against it from fans, usually we just make the e-webs work with knife and file, ignore the problem, or restrict our army lists.

Legion has a low buy-in, the models are pretty nice considering the grand scheme of things, they're also easy to paint, and you don't need very many models. You can't have everything.

1 hour ago, Tubb said:

My idea is not having to buy two stormtrooper boxes to obtain one diferent squad just because I have destroyed a mini to get THAT arm or THAT leg... or having to buy a stormtrooper box just to have the crew for my converted e-web.

You also now have the option of buying 3D printed bits for conversions. That technology has been a boon for converters and sculptors alike.

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

You also now have the option of buying 3D printed bits for conversions. That technology has been a boon for converters and sculptors alike.

Exactly. Just waiting for someone to make E-Web gunner in Stormtrooper armor and problem solve for me! Until then, I already have enough miniatures to paint to add to the pile.

Also if you think that a board game can't be a "hobby game" you need to see some of the "pimped" games on boardgamegeek. "Hobby" implies that you put time into it and get enjoyment out of tinkering with it. GW has, over the years, made conversions more and more about the "bitz box" that you are supposed to build up over time by buying more and more of their products. That is not the be all end all of "hobby" as people have pointed out, there is a growing 3rd party 3d printed conversion market. There is also the good old green stuff, plasticard and wire route. I used to play the LOTR SBG back in the day and even the plastics in that range were solid pose for the most part. We did all kind of things with them. I converted an entire box of goblins so that they were climbing on walls, vaulting over rocks, leaping through the air or crawling on the ground. I sold them all off years ago but that was a fun project that used nothing more than a hobby knife, rocks and green stuff. Was it not a "hobby" game just because it didn't come with extra pieces? I spend hours upon hours assembling, painting and basing my legion minis. I haven't even bothered converting any yet just because I like the poses they come in. GW has been making 40k since 1987. Give it time and FFG will continue to produce products and maybe, eventually some official conversion stuff.

For some reason, "hobby" has come to mean "arts and crafts," as if playing a wargame and becoming deeply involved in its strategy and such can't be my hobby...

4 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

For some reason, "hobby" has come to mean "arts and crafts," as if playing a wargame and becoming deeply involved in its strategy and such can't be my hobby...

It means you do BOTH and make scenery, to me. If all I care about is the strategy, there's a ton of games out there that use little cardboard chits on a map.