54 minutes ago, Angry Ewok said:

Green I just don't see the point in abusing a known weak point in the rules set to make your game easier to play than your opponent. the whole reason I play armada and not 40k is because I want a gentleman's game where 2 people set down and match wits on an even playing field .

"Leveraging to Maximum effect," has a way of killing games by driving out things that do not also leverage the stongest rules issues as well. That kind of thinking drives the game toward situations where a nerf is needed (see flotilla nerf) the trend to 1+4 and beyond became so prevalent that FFG had to step in and stop it.

I am sure you will say that this proves your point and that we should play the most abusive thing into the ground until FFG fixes it, but who wants to live in that kind of world where the community swings from one new abuse to the next forcing FFG to step in to bring the game back into the realm of reason, we are mostly all experienced player who have been in this for a while, we are better than this...

Also, I agree with the Ketsu idea, and while I also think Spamming YT-2400s is a lame, I don't want to be good at Mada I just want to take the best stuff and make my life easy, I think 8 YT-2400's could be a nice counter to the Last/First Squad alpha. make them fight you honest, none of this ridiculous "I get to shoot twice before you even get to react cause poor game design reasons, I am so good at this game, BS"

Out of curiosity: when you bring a 400 point, 3 activation list and you win the flip against a 2 activation list, do you deliberately avoid moving into range then shooting? There can’t be agreed-upon mass first-last avoidance; someone will always have initiative, and sometimes more activations. If doing so provides an advantage, someone will end up with that advantage. The status quo is better than an (unreliable) gentlemen’s agreement because we have a system, and expectations, and we can plan either within the system or to circumvent it. You could certainly argue for an official rule change, but this is a well-established core concept of the game. If you don’t like it, that doesn’t necessarily translate to a problem with Armada. Personally I find first-lasting quite fun, even if I’m capable of playing games against it instead. Is there a good way to determine which of us should be dissatisfied? Maybe it should be neither of us: when the dust settles, it’s not an activation spam list that wins worlds so far, but a fleet that breaks the system and likes second at least as much as first (Rieekan.) Then there’s Raddus, and the Strategic squads we all seem to have put aside. Bail and Pryce can stop a first-last just as well as they can cause one. You have choices.

I totally agree with you Green on the No Back To Back activation thing and hope that comes to pass.

I have taken this way off the point of the OP so ill leave this line of reasoning with this. I want to win and win very badly, but how you win is MORE important than if you win. This is not a war, it is something grown ups spend their free time to do for intellectual stimulation. I think if we as a community are going to continue to grow, and continue to be a game that new people want to be a part of, and a game that is known not for its flavor of the month but its rewarding of sound tactics, we the players need to do what we can to play in a way that does not run the meta into another "must nerf or the game will become mono build, situation,"

The OP wanted to discuss ways to counter this build type, and I too have spent many nights pondering it, and I have played it about 5 times now, trying to iterate on my theories. My thoughts:

1. Squall allows Morna to be viable round after round where she may not be without Squall. Squall can be countered by engagement, even if Intel is present, you may not have to kill Morna, just hold her in place while focusing on Steele. Squall has a radius it works in, it is large but does not trigger if the squads are flung far away from her.

2. usually not a lot of Escourt, most of these fleets want to blast straight though your fighter screen, killing Dengar may be viable in some if you are only looking to hold the enemy for a round, fleets that can burst down the ISD quickly may have a chance at making this work. be warned though, if Pryce is on this ship its going to be really hard to catch, if you have a MC75 loaded to burst down an ISD quick and can catch it ... maybe try this.

3. Killing the Quasar does not stop the madness, the ISD is fully capable of bombing you into the ground with just its 4 squads since it is pushing 4 of the best squads the empire offers...

4. I have tried to fly toward a corner making the 2 ships turn their nose into the corner to pursue, the Quasar wants to dip out as soon as it can, making it nose in to the fight makes it easier to catch and kill. The board edge cuts off some of their escape angles.

5. Flak... but not just any flak, fly fast and make them chase you, the worst possible outcome is the squads bombing first and moving away, every time they do this you loose out of flak chances, if they move in to bomb early in a round you can flak them with your remaining ships, and also move away forcing them to again move to engage next round instead of bombing and moving.

2 hours ago, Angry Ewok said:

I totally agree with you Green on the No Back To Back activation thing and hope that comes to pass.

If this happens will you be changing your name to Happy Ewok?

3 hours ago, Astrodar said:

Finally, looking for realism in a tabletop game is asking a bit much. In reality, all the ships would be moving at the same time in three dimensions with fleets of different sizes (amongst other things). Tabletop games just can’t give you this.

"Sir, we have to fire at that Rebel MC30 closing on us!"

"No, Ensign. Lord Vader has not indicated that we can yet."

"But Sir!"

"Do YOU wish to inform Lord Vader how you activated OUT OF ORDER? Brace for impact, and may our deaths be as meaningful as this Victory wasn't."

On 10/29/2018 at 9:12 AM, geek19 said:

This sounds impossible and totally OP!

So how do we beat it? I don't care about how it's OP or broken or TOO GOOD or whatever, let someone else make the "Doom and gloom" thread. This one is attempting to be productive and figure out a solution. It's a strong build and its weakness isn't obvious, so I'd like to get some discussion going.

@Angry Ewok make your own thread if you want to groan about it, this isn't the thread for that. I'm also not super keen on last+first overall and what it does for the game but you're doing nothing productive in this thread.

1 hour ago, Snipafist said:

@Angry Ewok make your own thread if you want to groan about it, this isn't the thread for that. I'm also not super keen on last+first overall and what it does for the game but you're doing nothing productive in this thread.

I think Ewoks last post was pretty constructive and to the point.

Talking about first last, as second player you must control the tempo of the game, you have the objectives to help with that, but you must force tough choices on your opponent. If you see a first last coming than you need to threaten something of your opponents and make them decide do I get my first last, or do I keep my other ship from dying.

With two activations and Pryce a lot depends on how many deployments you have. Especially with an ISD-Pryce build the ISD will be deployed last, usually as the 6th deployment. Most fleets will have more than 6 deployments and therefore have a chance to put some space between juicier targets and the ISD or try and get closer to the Quasar. Still very hard to take down both Quasar and ISD and whilst it may be possible to grind out a small win vs 2-ship I can't see big wins being common! Biggest weakness is probably against a Raddus bomb that can drop outside of ISD front arc with a chance to hit Quasar.

Two-Ship is HAWT GARBAGE

The garbage will do.

23 hours ago, Angry Ewok said:

@Green Knight your that guy that would show up to a fist fight with a machine gun and say "you can buy one too, so its fair..."

Are you the guy, who shows up in the shooting contest with throwing knives?

Swing the ban hammer at Pryce and hope you don't miss.

On 11/1/2018 at 5:11 AM, Green Knight said:

The last ship to activate in a round can't be the first to activate the following turn.

Are you going to make me turn to One Ship to avoid this? or make my quasar fly off the board on round 2 so that round 3 I can only activate my ISD and still first last? 😂

Also: Ewok. I am a professional Chess player and Armada feels like chess a lot more than it feels like checkers. This is the #1 reason why I play armada over X-wing, because X-wing is a lot more luck and prediction, where Armada is all calculation. Nothing in this game, and I repeat NOTHING is unbeatable, too good, or broken in this game. There are some upgrades that are good or in some cases stapled, so yes the game can get stale if you only play the same thing, but nothing is without weakness.

6 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

Are you going to make me turn to One Ship to avoid this? or make my quasar fly off the board on round 2 so that round 3 I can only activate my ISD and still first last? 😂

That's not how it's worded.

You'd have to pass your turn. 😀

8 hours ago, Green Knight said:

That's not how it's worded.

You'd have to pass your turn. 😀

oof. that would maim first/last lists

What about bail? would he be good?

2 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

oof. that would maim first/last lists

What about bail? would he be good?

Both of those things were exactly the point, I believe.

29 minutes ago, RobertK said:

Both of those things were exactly the point, I believe.

Yes.

You could still go pseudo-last/first, but would require 1 more activation than before, and kick Pryce totally down from her pedestal.

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

Yes.

You could still go pseudo-last/first, but would require 1 more activation than before, and kick Pryce totally down from her pedestal.

doesn't bail just take her place then, but for rebels?

8 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

doesn't bail just take her place then, but for rebels?

Similar, but not identical. But he too is soft nerfed.

But this is just hypothetical.

3 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

doesn't bail just take her place then, but for rebels?

It's also harder to get as meaningful a last activation than it is to get a first activation, so Bail is generally less effective than Pryce.

18 hours ago, Do I need a Username said:

It's also harder to get as meaningful a last activation than it is to get a first activation, so Bail is generally less effective than Pryce.

That’s assuming a meta where Pryce is used. If this rule change was put in place, Pryce would see a massive decline in play. So then the Rebel force only needs to get like 6 activations to get a last activation with their Bail ship, then activate it first the next round. Card abilities overrule rules of course. Not that this rule would be a bad thing, I was just pointing it out.

4 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

That’s assuming a meta where Pryce is used. If this rule change was put in place, Pryce would see a massive decline in play. So then the Rebel force only needs to get like 6 activations to get a last activation with their Bail ship, then activate it first the next round. Card abilities overrule rules of course. Not that this rule would be a bad thing, I was just pointing it out.

6 activations where one of them is as powerful as one two-ship activation is significantly harder to do for rebels, and probably means the rest of your fleet is weaker for it.

4 hours ago, Do I need a Username said:

6 activations where one of them is as powerful as one two-ship activation is significantly harder to do for rebels, and probably means the rest of your fleet is weaker for it.

Very true. What does this look like do you think?

Assault: Opening Salvo
Defense: Fire Lanes
Navigation: Sensor Net

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Slicer Tools (7)
• Quantum Storm (1)
= 26 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
• Task Force Organa (1)
= 40 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
• Task Force Organa (1)
= 40 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
• Task Force Organa (1)
= 40 Points

MC75 Ordnance Cruiser (100)
• Commander Sato (32)
• Bail Organa (7)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• External Racks (3)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Aspiration (3)
= 161 Points

Squadrons:
• Shara Bey (17)
• Tycho Celchu (16)
• 2 x VCX-100 Freighter (30)
= 63 Points

Total Points: 388