10 minutes ago, Zamalekite said:My fleet is already fixed! Pelta + Yavaris. But I have a secret weapon up my sleeve that I think is the key - Tantive IV!
Zam, you are probaby the biggest beneficiary of the 2 ship conversations going on haha
Tantive is rad, and I am glad you found a way to run 3 flotillas post nerf
1 hour ago, BrobaFett said:Zam, you are probaby the biggest beneficiary of the 2 ship conversations going on haha
[Feverishly taking notes...]
What is the fighter compliment when running Marreek/Jendon/Morna?
22 hours ago, Karneck said:That's vastly understating the game / tournament that was played, you can watch video of that entire tournament and after game 1, I'm the guy that's playing 2 ship the entire time.
As the player flying 2 ship, I hadn't lost a single ship until that final game. Going 10-1, 7-4, and 10-1 on the first day. Placing 1st in the cut to the top 4.
In the top four cut gameplay the next day, I started by faceing a Leia list of 7 hammerheads, a CR90 and a GR75 that was flown excellectly and almost took me down. But I managed to destroy 4 hammerheads, the CR90 and the GR75 before hopping over the rest of the hammerheads where they could no longer attack me and my opponent conceded.
The final match up was against the list I had tabled in the 3rd round match up the day before, he learned from his mistakes and it directly showed in this game against me again the next day.
I failed to take advantage of several options available to me and committed errors that lead to my defeat. That's how things go and as such, I also learned moving into the future.
Hey Karneck, I'm the one who flew Leia. I just want to say once again that you flew expertly. I think that my Leia fleet has a chance against your Thrawn, and I certainly knew what I needed to do going into that match. But I also knew that it was going to be an uphill battle, especially after your showing Day 1.
In any case, that was quite possibly the best game of Armada I've ever played. I am really glad that you were able to come up and play in our neck of the PNW. I am friends with Jay, and it was nice to see him win his first tournament, but I want you to know that I was rooting for you as well. You are a fine player and a gentleman.
I hope you are able to make it to the Spokane Pacific Northwest Armada Invitational 2019: The Inland Empire Strikes Back! to get your revenge.
Same goes for
@The Jabbawookie
and the two J's from Bremerton!
1 hour ago, stonestokes said:Hey Karneck, I'm the one who flew Leia. I just want to say once again that you flew expertly. I think that my Leia fleet has a chance against your Thrawn, and I certainly knew what I needed to do going into that match. But I also knew that it was going to be an uphill battle, especially after your showing Day 1.
In any case, that was quite possibly the best game of Armada I've ever played. I am really glad that you were able to come up and play in our neck of the PNW. I am friends with Jay, and it was nice to see him win his first tournament, but I want you to know that I was rooting for you as well. You are a fine player and a gentleman.
I hope you are able to make it to the Spokane Pacific Northwest Armada Invitational 2019: The Inland Empire Strikes Back! to get your revenge.
Same goes for @The Jabbawookie and the two J's from Bremerton!
I absolutely think your Leia list was very well thought out and put together. I think we were both sweating bullets that entire game, I agree that list has more than a chance with the way you were flying it.
My apologies again for causing unintentional grief, you were very understanding and I'm glad we were both able to compromise and move forward to enjoy the game, That was true spirit of the game.
I hope to see all of you guys (Including Jay!) at regionals this year, and I will for SURE be coming back next year to the Spokane Invitational, I'll be sure to spread the word too.
On 10/30/2018 at 12:16 PM, PT106 said:Well.. I think it did. At least I consider it an evolution of Norm Weir's Wave2 ISD+Demo Ozzel Gencon list. Agressively bid for first, bring max squads, make sure you can't be tabled.
Exactly my thought when I saw it. But then there are only a handful of us with memories from watching it play out in person.
31 minutes ago, Vergilius said:Exactly my thought when I saw it. But then there are only a handful of us with memories from watching it play out in person.
I remember.
I've even experimented with Thrawn ISD+GSD.
But it didn't sing like the Quasar version.
On 10/30/2018 at 1:16 PM, PT106 said:Well.. I think it did. At least I consider it an evolution of Norm Weir's Wave2 ISD+Demo Ozzel Gencon list. Agressively bid for first, bring max squads, make sure you can't be tabled.
@PT106 is correct. Norm is currently running a two-ship Imperial build, ISD+Quasar (Squall) at that. He actually ran it for Canadian Nationals.
2 hours ago, Roquax said:@PT106 is correct. Norm is currently running a two-ship Imperial build, ISD+Quasar (Squall) at that. He actually ran it for Canadian Nationals.
Surely Squall has to be the go-to choice on a Thrawn build? Pursuant would effectively get you a 4th turn of Nav+Squads? But is that needed?
19 minutes ago, Zamalekite said:Surely Squall has to be the go-to choice on a Thrawn build? Pursuant would effectively get you a 4th turn of Nav+Squads? But is that needed?
Pursuant is Slicer insurance + that 1 time when u can have Squad + nav.
Squall is another level of greatness. Thrawn really lets the Squall title shine.
...now if someone could build using the 3rd title...
43 minutes ago, Green Knight said:Pursuant is Slicer insurance + that 1 time when u can have Squad + nav.
Squall is another level of greatness. Thrawn really lets the Squall title shine.
...now if someone could build using the 3rd title...
The Problem is, swarm fighters are VERY fast, and Quasars are VERY WEAK... So... Give YV-666 swarm!
I have always, and will always loath first/last oriented builds. They are the huge glaring rules hole in the game that kills so much realism and is so powerful that it often determines games. I hate first last in general and wish we could all just avoid using this concept since it turns Armada Chess in to activation arms race checkers.
In the past I was able to try and calm myself down with thoughts like "well even if they get all the info to make good postioning choices while I have to guess, at least they have to close with me and line up their arcs, and also they will have a hard time turning hard enough to get back in the fight once they make their attack run, and post demo nerf they cant just hit my from beyond weapons range with impunity."
This new squadron based Last/First throws all that out the window, it can hit you round 1 even with descent positioning, and can keep on hitting you round after round, in the same hull zones even, without so much as having to line up any arcs at all. How is this a thing to be praised?
I know it takes nerve and a good eye for when to pryce in order to use well, but it is strong specifically b/c it abuses all the known powerful things (squadron dmg efficiency, First/Last, points denial, concentration firepower into a few activations at the front of the turn,) in the game to remove the opponents opportunity to react/actually have a fair game with each other.
I flew this list exactly once, saw how abusive it was and immediately felt bad for fielding it...
Edited by Angry Ewok7 minutes ago, Angry Ewok said:This new squadron based Last/First throws all that out the window, it can hit you round 1 even with descent positioning , and can keep on hitting you roun d after round, in the same hull zones even, witho ut so much as ha ving to line up any arcs at all. How is this o k ?
You seem to be barking up two different trees. First off, the two ship build doesn’t actually need first. They just want at least one round of last. Second, squads have never had to line up arcs. This list doesn’t change how squads work in any way. The squads have always been able to hit round after round, regardless of first/last.
Hitting turn one also isn’t new. Pre-nerf Rhymer and Nose Punch both could do it.
Finally, looking for realism in a tabletop game is asking a bit much. In reality, all the ships would be moving at the same time in three dimensions with fleets of different sizes (amongst other things). Tabletop games just can’t give you this.
This is not the end-all-be-all list that will kill Armada. It’s a strong build, but it has weaknesses. Good players can leverage it. Less good ones will lose with it. In other words, it’s just same old Armada.
24 minutes ago, Angry Ewok said:I have always, and will always loath first/last oriented builds. They are the huge glaring rules hole in the game that kills so much realism and is so powerful that it often determines games. I hate first last in general and wish we could all just avoid using this concept since it turns Armada Chess in to activation arms race checkers.
In the past I was able to try and calm myself down with thoughts like "well even if they get all the info to make good postioning choices while I have to guess, at least they have to close with me and line up their arcs, and also they will have a hard time turning hard enough to get back in the fight once they make their attack run, and post demo nerf they cant just hit my from beyond weapons range with impunity."
This new squadron based Last/First throws all that out the window, it can hit you round 1 even with descent positioning, and can keep on hitting you round after round, in the same hull zones even, without so much as having to line up any arcs at all. How is this a thing to be praised?
I know it takes nerve and a good eye for when to pryce in order to use well, but it is strong specifically b/c it abuses all the known powerful things (squadron dmg efficiency, First/Last, points denial, concentration firepower into a few activations at the front of the turn,) in the game to remove the opponents opportunity to react/actually have a fair game with each other.
I flew this list exactly once, saw how abusive it was and immediately felt bad for fielding it...
Yeah well, I'm not a fan of last/first myself, but it's undeniably part of the game and powerful, so it must be leveraged to maximum effect.
There can be no other way.
You really have to have a solid game plan, just like with Rieeken Aceholes (or any Yavaris-heavy list for the matter) or Ackbar token lists, or Raddus Profundity. You can’t just do whatever and expect to have a decent outcome.
Green I just don't see the point in abusing a known weak point in the rules set to make your game easier to play than your opponent. the whole reason I play armada and not 40k is because I want a gentleman's game where 2 people set down and match wits on an even playing field .
"Leveraging to Maximum effect," has a way of killing games by driving out things that do not also leverage the stongest rules issues as well. That kind of thinking drives the game toward situations where a nerf is needed (see flotilla nerf) the trend to 1+4 and beyond became so prevalent that FFG had to step in and stop it.
I am sure you will say that this proves your point and that we should play the most abusive thing into the ground until FFG fixes it, but who wants to live in that kind of world where the community swings from one new abuse to the next forcing FFG to step in to bring the game back into the realm of reason, we are mostly all experienced player who have been in this for a while, we are better than this...
On a tactical note: when fighting this build my approach has been to deploy in a way that is hard to gauge when I will engage, making Pryce harder to use, I play Ackbar so I can strafe and manipulate this far more easily than most fleets that are simply not built to fight off their broadsides though, so not sure how applicable that is to other ppls tactics, also I try my very best to prevent the Last/First squadron alpha where possible (duh really) but also the thing that this fleet does not have a lot of is ships, my approach is to fly in a tight formation to overlap flak from multiple sources and make the squads feel it if they come in to bomb (hopefully) I think an MSU fleet should actually stick together against this build so they can cover each other with flak,
one of the big weaknesses of this build is that it must do all its things in the top 2 activations of a round (pryce not withstanding) so in order to approach a ship to bomb it, odds are good that the ship will get to flak its attackers. It is imperative that you try and avoid allowing the squads to close and bomb, then be setting in position at the top of the next round such that they can then bomb and move away, they take way more damage and are more out of position if they have to move in to attack. (pryce is again what makes this so hard to pull off during the initial meeting engagement) but she only works once per game, don't give up
Also, I agree with the Ketsu idea, and while I also think Spamming YT-2400s is a lame, I don't want to be good at Mada I just want to take the best stuff and make my life easy, I think 8 YT-2400's could be a nice counter to the Last/First Squad alpha. make them fight you honest, none of this ridiculous "I get to shoot twice before you even get to react cause poor game design reasons, I am so good at this game, BS"
10 minutes ago, Angry Ewok said:Green I just don't see the point in abusing a known weak point in the rules set to make your game easier to play than your opponent. the whole reason I play armada and not 40k is because I want a gentleman's game where 2 people set down and match wits on an even playing field .
"Leveraging to Maximum effect," has a way of killing games by driving out things that do not also leverage the stongest rules issues as well. That kind of thinking drives the game toward situations where a nerf is needed (see flotilla nerf) the trend to 1+4 and beyond became so prevalent that FFG had to step in and stop it.
I am sure you will say that this proves your point and that we should play the most abusive thing into the ground until FFG fixes it, but who wants to live in that kind of world where the community swings from one new abuse to the next forcing FFG to step in to bring the game back into the realm of reason, we are mostly all experienced player who have been in this for a while, we are better than this...
On a tactical note: when fighting this build my approach has been to deploy in a way that is hard to gauge when I will engage, making Pryce harder to use, I play Ackbar so I can strafe and manipulate this far more easily than most fleets that are simply not built to fight off their broadsides though, so not sure how applicable that is to other ppls tactics, also I try my very best to prevent the Last/First squadron alpha where possible (duh really) but also the thing that this fleet does not have a lot of is ships, my approach is to fly in a tight formation to overlap flak from multiple sources and make the squads feel it if they come in to bomb (hopefully) I think an MSU fleet should actually stick together against this build so they can cover each other with flak,
one of the big weaknesses of this build is that it must do all its things in the top 2 activations of a round (pryce not withstanding) so in order to approach a ship to bomb it, odds are good that the ship will get to flak its attackers. It is imperative that you try and avoid allowing the squads to close and bomb, then be setting in position at the top of the next round such that they can then bomb and move away, they take way more damage and are more out of position if they have to move in to attack. (pryce is again what makes this so hard to pull off during the initial meeting engagement) but she only works once per game, don't give up
Also, I agree with the Ketsu idea, and while I also think Spamming YT-2400s is a lame, I don't want to be good at Mada I just want to take the best stuff and make my life easy, I think 8 YT-2400's could be a nice counter to the Last/First Squad alpha. make them fight you honest, none of this ridiculous "I get to shoot twice before you even get to react cause poor game design reasons, I am so good at this game, BS"
The playing field is even.
All the rules are known and all the components are available to all players.
I don't particularly LIKE how powerful the last/first is, haven't been since Demolisher first appeared, but there rules are what the rules are.
You can't just decide to change part of them, when the publisher thinks this mechanic is a key part of the game.
If you want the rules to change, this can only happen by pushing everything to the limit, so that either A) new stuff appears to remedy the situation or B) the rules get changed (that actually happened in IA).
For Armada I'm very sure the rules won't change, and everything later waves have given us have made the last/first more potent, not less (Pryce, BTA, SAdv and so forth).
At any rate there are at least some alternatives to Demo now, so I guess that's something.
I am very relaxed and flexible while playing, so if you forget something and ask if you can spend a repair token after shooting I'll probably say yes, and if you don't know some rule or FAQ entry I'll remind you, but I absolutely refuse to play the game with any player-made restrictions.
5 minutes ago, Angry Ewok said:Green I just don't see the point in abusing a known weak point in the rules set to make your game easier to play than your opponent. the whole reason I play armada and not 40k is because I want a gentleman's game where 2 people set down and match wits on an even playing field .
"Leveraging to Maximum effect," has a way of killing games by driving out things that do not also leverage the stongest rules issues as well...
snip
...make them fight you honest, none of this ridiculous "I get to shoot twice before you even get to react cause poor game design reasons, I am so good at this game, BS"
I totally understand your viewpoint, but completely disagree with pushing my/your morales on other players.
I never used Demo and Rhymer pre-nerf, much like I don’t Avenger BT now- I prefer finding other ways to play. I would never force that decision on my opponent, because the problem is, where does the perceived abuse end?
It’s a slippery slope where suddenly an opponent using anything that’s “good” makes them a bad person, and eventually that turns into extremely bitter feelings every time you lose.
They didn’t beat my fleet because they are better, they beat it because they brought a certain card.
The thing that I would like to hear more about is the difference between a Pryce ISD and a Pryce Quasar build, I typically assume the Pryce ship will nav up to speed 3 on the pryce turn, then continue at speed 3 then next turn, effectively giving that ship and distance 6 move to clear out away from return fire (are you all happy Last/Firt is a thing, any speed 3 ship in the game can magically be 1.5 times faster than a speed 4 ship, for no logical reason, based no on hardware it is carrying or its commanders choices, no, just based on a huge rules loophole...)
Because of this massive move, trapping the Pryce ship or getting enough fire onto it to kill it is very hard. I have adopted the approach of ignoring the Pryce ship if possible since it is so hard to catch (due not to piloting skill but an arbitrary game mechaninc)
When facing this build I think it is important to tailor your battle plan around which ship pryce is on, they almost play like 2 different fleets.
ISD points denial and the cheapness of the Quasar make either ship a hard choice
Relatedly:
Pryce is what makes 2-ships viable in the current meta. Wo Pryce, no 2-ship.
But that ALSO APPLIES WHEN GOING SECOND.
Thrawn 2-ship is GREAT as 1st player, but it's also GREAT as 2nd player.
Which is why I like the ISD-Pryce version the most, sicne I feel it has strong 2nd player options than the Quasar-Pryce version.
@Green Knight your that guy that would show up to a fist fight with a machine gun and say "you can buy one too, so its fair..."
1 minute ago, Angry Ewok said:The thing that I would like to hear more about is the difference between a Pryce ISD and a Pryce Quasar build, I typically assume the Pryce ship will nav up to speed 3 on the pryce turn, then continue at speed 3 then next turn, effectively giving that ship and distance 6 move to clear out away from return fire (are you all happy Last/Firt is a thing, any speed 3 ship in the game can magically be 1.5 times faster than a speed 4 ship, for no logical reason, based no on hardware it is carrying or its commanders choices, no, just based on a huge rules loophole...)
Because of this massive move, trapping the Pryce ship or getting enough fire onto it to kill it is very hard. I have adopted the approach of ignoring the Pryce ship if possible since it is so hard to catch (due not to piloting skill but an arbitrary game mechaninc)
When facing this build I think it is important to tailor your battle plan around which ship pryce is on, they almost play like 2 different fleets.
ISD points denial and the cheapness of the Quasar make either ship a hard choice
It is a sound basic plan. However, catching the Quasar can be VERY difficult with Thrawn nav. You may have to go through the ISD, or be forced to attack with just a small portion of your fleet, which the Quasar can typcially handle pretty well. And when it dies mid-late game you're not really scoring many points.
That's one of the strengths - it doesn't give up points easy.
5 minutes ago, Angry Ewok said:@Green Knight your that guy that would show up to a fist fight with a machine gun and say "you can buy one too, so its fair..."
I think I would call in an air strike... or maybe nuke you from orbit. It's best to be sure
I have, in the past, suggested a soft fix for activation spam and last/first:
The last ship to activate in a round can't be the first to activate the following turn.
As the astute player can see, this is not a perfect fix, as multiple extra activations would still enable pseudo-last/first.
But it would help a little bit. At the very least I would be willing to explore it further.
12 minutes ago, Angry Ewok said:make them fight you honest, none of this ridiculous "I get to shoot twice before you even get to react cause poor game design reasons, I am so good at this game, BS"
Activation is 1 of the key features of the game. It always has been. That's the reason why 1+4 lists have had so much success. It's the reason why there have been long discussions if we need a possibility to pass. In wave 7 FFG gave us three cards to manipulate the activation game (Pryce/Bail/StratAdv.) Which former has been only possible by high bids and list building can now (for 1 round) fix an upgrade.
I played once against a 2 ship (Pryce at Quasar) list and the double attack of squadrons impressed me. It killed my MC75 before the ship could do anything. But that was not a new experience. With all waves there came possibilities to change rules and exploit certain aspects of the game. As long as they are new, they are often overwhelming.
Demolisher was. Rogue was. Flotilla spam was. Fish farm was. Now it's Raddus and Pryce/Bail lists. While it all seems game breaking for a while, the community finds a way to deal with it. The game becomes richer through "exploiting" the rules. (Demo, Rogue, Flotillas, fish farms are all still viable ways to win.)
Thrawn is a strong commander if played well. 2 ship lists are strong lits. But nothing is invincible. If you want to counter Pryce, you can easily do that with Pryce or Bail. Keep up in practicing your play style. And if you find no way to counter a certain type of list, then play it yourself. Win with it or lose with it. You will find out why and how it works. After a short while you will know its week points as well and be able to fight it.
Unfortunately, complaining never helps.