Alright, I keep getting smacked by a 2 ship build and I want to hear counters and thoughts.

A 2 ship build?

Yup. It's an ISD and a Quasar. One of them has Pryce, the other has Brunson, usually. 134 points of squadrons that hit like a truck (Maarek, Morna, Jendon for a start, usually Mauler as well).

How does it work?

Its shtick is that it wins the activation game by leveraging Pryce as a way of ensuring it gets the last activation. With Boosted Comms and Squall, that Quasar can hit you with squadrons turn ONE.

I've seen Thrawn (who counters slicer tools) and Jerry piloting it, and it does well. It can lose the Quasar and still push through a 10-1 against your fleet, so long as it doesn't lose the ISD. Pryce getting a last-first is mean, as we all know, and it will just push through your fleet and run if it has to.

This sounds impossible and totally OP!

So how do we beat it? I don't care about how it's OP or broken or TOO GOOD or whatever, let someone else make the "Doom and gloom" thread. This one is attempting to be productive and figure out a solution. It's a strong build and its weakness isn't obvious, so I'd like to get some discussion going.

My thoughts and discussions with a few people are going all over the place. Red Dice, rushing the Pryce ship, the Hateful Eight, Ruthless Strategists.... Let's collect some thoughts and strategy here!

How high is two-ship bidding? What's the typical Pryce turn? (1? 2? Does it vary based on matchup?)

@Green Knight 's nordics list was at 393, which is far from equating to a guaranteed Pryce last-first.

But I don't know if that's a weakness (can't afford a bid but wants one) or a strength (doesn't actually need to last-first).

13 minutes ago, svelok said:

How high is two-ship bidding? What's the typical Pryce turn? (1? 2? Does it vary based on matchup?)

@Green Knight 's nordics list was at 393, which is far from equating to a guaranteed Pryce last-first.

But I don't know if that's a weakness (can't afford a bid but wants one) or a strength (doesn't actually need to last-first).

I would say it's weaker without the last/first. But then again, what isn't? With 130+ squads, it can take squad-based yellow/blue objectives, so its major weakness as second player is that it doesn't really want to take MW. If you have a squadron list, you can probably score some points off Fighter Ambush or Superior Positions.

So I've run 2 ship a few times, but I've got to be completely honest. I'm a Rebel at heart. So here are my thoughts on some of the weaknesses.

• Morna / Jendon are the linchpin to the squads. Yes, I suppose there's some dude in a Defender that does stuff as well, but the Morna Double Tap (TM) has a high probability of putting out as much damage as a CR-90B. Most times I've played with MMJ, people focus on Maarek, because they are still haunted by Sloane builds. Morna is particularly weak after a double tap, because often her singular brace is thrown away. Take her out before it comes back.
• Don't be scared to "waste a shot" on flak. These are meaty squads, and every bit counts.
• Ignore the Quasar. Focus the ISD and Squads. The Quasar can be mopped up later. I've notice people tend to focus the Quasar, because it seems easier to take down. However, this is often accompanied by an ISD-II, which can still throw the Linchpin Trio + 1 at you. As pointed out, 2-ship can still 10-1 losing the Quasar. They can't if they lose the ISD.
• Learn to deal with Dust Clouds. Seriously... 2 Ship has given a new life to the often set aside Dust Cloud objectives. They don't mind taking 2nd, because they can keep that Quasar even safer while their squads flit around the board.
• Look at the squad load out. Rhymer+AFFM+Squall can Pryce round 1 and sink a Raddus CR-90 before the drop. First/Last with Pryce and decent rolls can drop an MC75 at the top of round 2 off squads alone. Pryce will likely be used in the first couple rounds for a hard alpha strike and potentially first/last.

Those are my initial thoughts from running it. It is a lot of fun to fly this fleet, and there is a lot of variety among 2 ship fleets. MSU's need to be very careful, because those squads can eat a couple small ships per round.

You don't need first last for it to be effective, because 2 ship maximizes efficiency, (moving 400 points of sheer power in 2 activations frontloads the turn with damage so whether its first or second its going to be moving targets away from you by the time the 3rd and 4th ship in your line up is getting its shot) but giving it first player does help it.

It's extremely difficult to fork because of this.

Also, quasar pryce and ISD pryce play very differently for how similar they are. Quasar pryce is much more reliant on first than ISD pryce, but also is more flexible.

I would agree that the isd is the key. But, you can't ignore the quasar. If you take out the isd, usually it's happening after thrawn has done his thing and the quasar has danced like a leaf on the wind into a safe section of the board behind your fleet. With squall, boosted, and jendon its late game chase and repositioning ability is extremely useful. Squads can squall to reposition for a clean shot on a target putting it as close to the next target as you can, shoot, and move speed 5 to that next shot.

I won my two Vassal tourney games against variations of that list and my thoughts on potential tactics are:

1. Know what this list can do and what you can do to this list (I.e. how fast can you kill Quasar? should you try? What is a threat range?)

2. With only two ships and squads that are hungry for squadron commands the fleet has to commit it's location very early in deployment. Utilize that.

3. Try to force squads to be out of activation range (Its harder thatn you may think but not unachievable).

4. Change the tempo of the game (deploying far away, flying slow etc) to make Pryce round suboptimal.

5. Quasar hates being double-accuracied.

6. Keep in mind that Squall can be countered by engaging affected squadrons or covering end-of-squall move zone with a squadron.

Its also important to note that killing the quasar doesn't deny the 10-1, but conversely, if you (somehow) manage to kill everything but the quasar without losing anything, you get the 10-1.

How does MSU fair when you engage all spread-out like so the two ship player can't commit all their forces to all your forces?

12 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

Its also important to note that killing the quasar doesn't deny the 10-1, but conversely, if you (somehow) manage to kill everything but the quasar without losing anything, you get the 10-1.

How does MSU fair when you engage all spread-out like so the two ship player can't commit all their forces to all your forces?

In my experience it responds by concentrating its force on whatever is within reach and being patient, working its way across the MSU. I would imagine target overload would stand a better chance of blasting through. Still gotta kill something though.

16 minutes ago, PT106 said:

2. With only two ships and squads that are hungry for squadron commands the fleet has to commit it's location very early in deployment. Utilize that.

3. Try to force squads to be out of activation range (Its harder thatn you may think but not unachievable).

These two seem like they lend themselves to Ackbar.

16 minutes ago, PT106 said:

4. Change the tempo of the game (deploying far away, flying slow etc) to make Pryce round suboptimal.

5. Quasar hates being double-accuracied.

These seem more like H9/QTC Cymoons. Does either actually stand a chance?

4 minutes ago, Astrodar said:

• Morna / Jendon are the linchpin to the squads. Yes, I suppose there's some dude in a Defender that does stuff as well, but the Morna Double Tap (TM) has a high probability of putting out as much damage as a CR-90B. Most times I've played with MMJ, people focus on Maarek, because they are still haunted by Sloane builds. Morna is particularly weak after a double tap, because often her singular brace is thrown away. Take her out before it comes back.

Per round, Morna+Jendon averages 4.5 damage, unless I can't do math; Maarek+Jendon averages some number that doesn't matter, because it's really just 4.

"Is blitzing Morna that effective a hit to the fleet's damage output? Sure, she's the easiest target once brace-less (and Maarek would be shooting anyways, so you're going from 6.5 total to 4 total), but that's still 8 damage to push through - would the added difficulty of Jendon's 6 w/ double brace not be worth the total decrease in output (from 6.5 to 4.25?)" - is what I typed, but as I wrote out the numbers I see the logic. Dropping any one of those three is a similar decline in output, but a braceless Morna is by far the easiest to bring down of the trio. Spooky.

How well does it handle Sloane, or even just MFC matchups? It doesn't have the extra squadron punch of Sloane, so some tanky or scattering squads seem like they could tie it up disproportionately. That would lend itself to the theory that it contains an element meta response to squadless builds.

14 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

Also, quasar pryce and ISD pryce play very differently for how similar they are. Quasar pryce is much more reliant on first than ISD pryce, but also is more flexible.

 I would agree that the isd is the key. But, you can't ignore the quasar. If you take out the isd, usually it's happening after thrawn has done his thing and the quasar has danced like a leaf on the wind into a safe section of the board behind your fleet. With squall, boosted, and jendon its late game chase and repositioning ability is extremely useful. Squads can squall to reposition for a clean shot on a target putting it as close to the next target as you can, shoot, and move speed 5 to that next shot.

It sounds like it's not about ISD-Pryce versus Quasar-Pryce, but actually about Quasar-Pryce versus Quasar-Brunson?

3 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

In my experience it responds by concentrating its force on whatever is within reach and being patient, working its way across the MSU. I would imagine target overload would stand a better chance of blasting through. Still gotta kill something though.

These two seem like they lend themselves to Ackbar.

These seem more like H9/QTC Cymoons. Does either actually stand a chance?

I think the chance is there. (I utilized Motti H9/QTC Cymoon in my games, however 3-4 Gunnery AF Ackbar might also work, but needs testing)

It's really super weak to CR90b rieekan rambos give that a shot.

20 minutes ago, svelok said:

Per round, Morna+Jendon averages 4.5 damage, unless I can't do math; Maarek+Jendon averages some number that doesn't matter, because it's really just 4.

"Is blitzing Morna that effective a hit to the fleet's damage output? Sure, she's the easiest target once brace-less (and Maarek would be shooting anyways, so you're going from 6.5 total to 4 total), but that's still 8 damage to push through - would the added difficulty of Jendon's 6 w/ double brace not be worth the total decrease in output (from 6.5 to 4.25?)" - is what I typed, but as I wrote out the numbers I see the logic. Dropping any one of those three is a similar decline in output, but a braceless Morna is by far the easiest to bring down of the trio. Spooky.

It's not uncommon for Morna to do 3+2 or in some horrible "the dice hate me" circumstances, 3+3. They can't hit crits, but the raw damage is just a bit higher. Combined with the fact that Morna only has the one brace and it's already under pressure from her due to the rerolls, she's a higher-priority target than Maarek: easier to kill, slightly higher anti-ship damage ceiling (that can be doubled).

@SgtDurandal has run a variation of this nightmare against me many many times and I have yet to find much success. He brings a high bid and last/firsts with his ISD round 2/3. With his ISD at speed 3 there is nowhere that is safe at the beginning of turn 3. Often he won't even get a shot off at the end of turn 2 but guarantees his positioning for turn-three-double-arc-death to whatever ship he deems key. Often the turn three ISD move will be a squad command so that Marak/Jendon etc can weaken the target ship before the ISD unloads. On my best days I can get a 5-6 or 6-5 against this particular build. Nothing yet has proven to be super effective against it.

I too keep seeing this fleet. It haunts me ? Thank you @BrobaFett .

I changed around my autumn tourney fleet to better deal with the squad threat. I had one disaster against Broba, but recent success against Dr Alex.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/282655-2018-vassal-autumn-tourney-round-3-fight/?do=findComment&comment=3517464

Of course most fleets can't maneuver or flak as well as my fleet. I got lucky with Dr Alex allowing the isd to be attacked turning a 7-4 into a 9-2 win.

I agree that disrupting the pryce round is mandatory.

Deploy back and slower to mitigate a turn one pryce (biggest threat).

Turn 2 pryce allows a break in action for you to engage and target squads

Turn 3 pryce allows the isd to be targeted with as many remaining ships as possible.

Question, if a vader boarding team removes pryce at the beginning of a pryce turn, does the ship still go last?

You do realize that by going slow, you allow Pryce to completely dictate the first half of the game? Seven points to take away you greatest shot at taking out the ISD, which you must do to win?

Yes, don't rush headlong into the Pryce ISD round 2. Then you will die. But you need to be a bit more clever than just delaying engagement.

Not directed towards any one poster in particular, but I hear this a lot. You "just wait out Pryce". OK, thanks for handing the win to me. It was maybe just an 8-3, but I'll take it and move on.

7 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

You do realize that by going slow, you allow Pryce to completely dictate the first half of the game? Seven points to take away you greatest shot at taking out the ISD, which you must do to win?

Yes, don't rush headlong into the Pryce ISD round 2. Then you will die. But you need to be a bit more clever than just delaying engagement.

Not directed towards any one poster in particular, but I hear this a lot. You "just wait out Pryce". OK, thanks for handing the win to me. It was maybe just an 8-3, but I'll take it and move on.

There's a part of me that wonders about fleets with a lot of out-the-gate speed control, like Ozzel, Leia, Garm, or any fleet willing to ditch Entrapment Formation round one (or use it with Hondo) being able to set up difficult guessing games with Pryce because the ships coming for her can increase or decrease speed by 2 on round one to rush the ship or slam on the brakes.

1 minute ago, Snipafist said:

There's a part of me that wonders about fleets with a lot of out-the-gate speed control, like Ozzel, Leia, Garm, or any fleet willing to ditch Entrapment Formation round one (or use it with Hondo) being able to set up difficult guessing games with Pryce because the ships coming for her can increase or decrease speed by 2 on round one to rush the ship or slam on the brakes. 

Sounds like a lot of work just to mitigate one upgrade that some players might take

Pryce. Rules.

1 hour ago, Snipafist said:

It's not uncommon for Morna to do 3+2 or in some horrible "the dice hate me" circumstances, 3+3. They can't hit crits, but the raw damage is just a bit higher. Combin  ed with the fact that Morna only has the one brace and it's already under pressure from her due to the rerolls, she's a higher-priority target than Maarek: easier to kill, slightly higher anti-ship damage ceiling (that can be doubled). 

Exactly this. The probability that Maarek deals 2 damage is 94%. The probability that Morna deals at least 2 damage with her rerollable dice is 84%. However, Morna has a 42% chance to hit 3 damage. So by focusing her, you either take away her rerolls by forcing her to use the brace in defense or she doesn't have any defense token to use and you lower the damage ceiling.

Along with this, when playing against MMJ, I prefer to leave Maarek on the board. He's so absurdly consistent, that it makes planning around him much easier.

2 hours ago, svelok said:

How well does it handle Sloane, or even just MFC matchups?

I usually run my 2 ship with Bossk and Mauler. They eat up Sloane squads. Bossk doesn't care about the initial counters when he's attacking. Usually people choose to not counter. He loves seeing Soontir on the board. Once he has that accuracy, I double tap him to mop up scatter aces. I would plan to lose half my squads against Sloane, but usually the squads left behind are MMJ and maybe someone else. That's all you really need to still do work.

Meatier MFC's are a bit different. I had my squads tied up by a rebel rogue ball, but part of that was my inexperience with squads. Basically if you're using an MFC, kill the 2 ship's Intel, pay attention to grit, and lock down their squads. I think the smart play for the 2 ship player is to lure the enemy squads into flak range and weather an alpha attack.

6 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Sounds like a lot of work just to mitigate one upgrade that some players might take

Pryce. Rules.

Set up speed 2 Demo nearby to control Pryce round selection.

35 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Sounds like a lot of work just to mitigate one upgrade that some players might take

Pryce. Rules.

Mitigating if you slam on the brakes, exploiting if you speed up. Ganging up on Pryce during her slow round is excellent if you can pull it off, and the 2-ship fleet is leaning on Pryce hard enough that she's the honorary commander.

8 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

Mitigating if you slam on the brakes, exploiting if you speed up. Ganging up on Pryce during her slow round is excellent if you can pull it off, and the 2-ship fleet is leaning on Pryce hard enough that she's the honorary commander.

But Snipa, how do you gang up on a Pryce ISD starting at the back edge and going round 2? Raiders can't close enough. Fast ships with red dice can, but then they eat squads and land in awkward places in time for the ISD to activate more squads and GT them to death (Quads are really gold here).

It can be done, surely, but I wish someone could maybe illustrate it with a Vassal log or something.

Btw this sin't unique for 2-ship or Thrawn. It's universally applicable for Pryce.

(and don't forget the Dust field covering most angles of attack outside the front arc)

7 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

Mitigating if you slam on the brakes, exploiting if you speed up. Ganging up on Pryce during her slow round is excellent if you can pull it off, and the 2-ship fleet is leaning on Pryce hard enough that she's the honorary commander.

And if you have fighters, speeding up unexpectedly will also give you plenty of opportunities to flak enemy squads, since those 134 want to engage turn one.

10 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

how do you gang up on a Pryce ISD starting at the back edge and going round 2?

You don't. In this case "wait it out and minimize round 2 impact" is a better approach.

10 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

and don't forget the Dust field covering most angles of attack outside the front arc

I would be tempted to choose Ion Cannon instead.

5 minutes ago, PT106 said:

You don't. In this case "wait it out and minimize round 2 impact" is a better approach.

I would be tempted to choose Ion Cannon instead.

I agree on both counts.

BUT the Ion Cannon can be really brutal. Ion + squads to long range fire from ISD is not to be taken lightly. But if u know your stuff, the Cannon is maybe the better option.

I found Raddus to be a pain in the **** to predict with Pryce. Deploy deep and Rhymer AFFM Squall cant hit you turn 1.

Ackbar is also utterly annoying as he can strafe at high speed from long range thx to deployment advantage.... maybe use 3 ship with a Goz and Sloane instead...

Its the deployment advantage you need to utilise, tough given the range on those squads. Just accept that.