7 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:And if I had a problem with that, the best way to lessen their shame would be to hype up the man who killed them - and then make sure he ends up dead.
Actually, no, because there's no way you can hype them enough, because they're peasants. The BEST way to lessen their shame is to find a genealogist and bribe the Celestial Order out of them so they "find" records that that Ashigaru is actually the illegitimate child of a samurai.
30 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:That said, the beauty of being Crab is you care less about such judgment
I recall one Crab who cared a bit too much about Judgment...
Just now, JBento said:Actually, no, because there's no way you can hype them enough, because they're peasants. The BEST way to lessen their shame is to find a genealogist and bribe the Celestial Order out of them so they "find" records that that Ashigaru is actually the illegitimate child of a samurai.
While fighting in service of someone with samurai status, they're considered part of the buke - not samurai themselves but part of the buke nonetheless, so not peasants. That's according to the ashigaru entry in the NPC section of the book, anyway.
To the OP, I noticed that in the beginner box as well.
In the core rulebook, it talks about how non-people do the tasks that require handling the dead (including animals). It then talks about how samurai must avoid touching dead flesh except in the case of war or they will incur an honour penalty. I am assuming that because monks and shugenja commune with the kami directly that it is even more of an issue if they become "unclean" by physical contact with dead things. The kami would be displeased or offended.
I take the beginner box hunting trial to mean not that they can't kill, but that they can't pick it up and bring it back.
EDIT: I read it again and it says spilling of blood... I would... Ignore that part?
It seems a bit unreasonable.
can shugenja wear plate armor ? and monks ?
4 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:can shugenja wear plate armor ? and monks ?
The rules don't say they can't and there are militant orders of both, so strictly speaking yes. That said, it's wargear, extremely rare and extremely expensive - not something a lot of samurai are easily able to afford from their stipend and not something a lord is just going to provide for a non-bushi. Inherited ones aren't very likely to go to a shugenja or monk either.
2 hours ago, Avatar111 said:can shugenja wear plate armor ? and monks ?
"IF YOU SEE A KITSU ON THE BATTLEFIELD NOT WEARING ARMOUR, RESPECTFULLY SLAP THEM AND FORCE THEM TO WEAR THE **** THING!" - Shouting Matsu
Togashi tattoos only works while uncovered/exposed, so no armor for them, at least in the fluff. The average Brotherhood monk is too ascetic to own armor and there are Kiho that can grant similar protection anyway. Sohei sects have armored monks in the fluff, however.
Edited by omnicroneI expect most battlefield Shugenja settle for Ashigaru armor, which there has to be a plentiful surplus of (and the low rarity follows on this) but yeah real armor is probably limited to those who participate in battlefields actively and have probably done so for a few generations, enough for an ancestor to commission some armor. Artisan-type Shugenja might make their own armor - while I was making some test characters so I could walk future players through the process I had an Asahina who randomly rolled a set of armor on an ancestry roll, decided that it should be Sacred but damaged - it's an heirloom which hasn't been used in a few decades and needs repairs.
Edited by UnitOmega6 hours ago, Avatar111 said:can shugenja wear plate armor ? and monks ?
Depends on the social rules of their order, and whether they're prepared to ignore them.
If you're asking "do invocations work when you're in plate armour?" then yes. As noted by @omnicrone , togashi tattoos require you to be unarmoured, but invocations aren't like D&D spells - more like Sorcery from 40k RPGs - you're essentially summoning the presence or attention of a patron kami, pointing at the enemy and saying " get 'im, Kevin "* rather than wielding the magical energy of the universe yourself. What you're wearing (provided it's not a kimono embroidered with the words "water kami suck!") doesn't really matter.
At the same time, there are reasons not to want plate armour:
12 hours ago, JBento said:Actually, no, because there's no way you can hype them enough, because they're peasants. The BEST way to lessen their shame is to find a genealogist and bribe the Celestial Order out of them so they "find" records that that Ashigaru is actually the illegitimate child of a samurai.
Or was (or at least tell everyone they were) a particularly poor and grubby ronin, not actually an ashigaru, which is not a totally unreasonable mistake on a battlefield.
But yeah. You get a void point for issuing a realistic challenge which is refused. An ashigaru does have enough honour and glory to stake, so does get to choose whether to accept or not, but as noted whilst you'd get your void point, you may get slapped for a failure of honour and compassion by challenging him.
There may be circumstances under which is is the honourable thing to do. Challenging and fighting a bandit 'champion' one-on-one rather than having to fight a skirmish against the entire bandit group and risk those under your protection being killed, for example - although whether the bandits can be trusted to stick to the deal if you win is a different matter!
It's all about whether you're challenging an defensibly 'equal' (or superior!) opponent to a fair fight. The more you move away from that, the more likely you are to forfeit your staked honour and glory and/or take extra penalties. Yelling "IChallengeYouToADuelOtsushiSneakAttackB*tch!" whilst dropping on someone out of a tree from behind does not count.
Few important actions are strictly 'honourable' or 'dishonourable'. If they are, it's an obvious enough choice anyway ("don't randomly murder the peasants for no reason" "really? learn something new every day..."). Most are a mix of various breaches and various sacrifices, with the net effect being either positive or negative - and this is where the clan-specific modifiers to individual virtues start to change the perception of what's honourable or not, by reducing or amplifying gains and losses and flipping a positive to a negative or vice-versa.
Take an example (slightly inspired by Wildcats and Dragons Teeth):
You have an elderly daimyo of a minor family. He's loyal, pious, intelligent and polite. Basically a really good egg, for all that his domain is one slightly fortified manor house nominally called a 'castle', two villages either side of a stream, and the bridge crossing between them. Said bridge is moderately strategically important, and hence there's a small Imperial Legion garrison - A Nikutai and a half-dozen Bushi. The Daimyo is respectful to them, and not only meets but actively exceeds his obligations - providing the Imperial troops with rice, sake and the services of ashigaru retainers to bulk out patrols or sentry posts where needed - and thus saves a fair expense from the purse of the garrison commanders' superior.
His biggest weakness is his (only) child and heir, who is a classic spoiled only child. Said child has never really been taken to task, and - critically - none of their father's swordmasters has ever really tested them; but has just allowed them to win in order not to offend them (because they have an ego, a short temper, and a cruel and inventive streak) or disappoint their father, who has a tendancy to take anything their child tells them at face value.
Said heir has convinced themselves they're the Kami's gift to modern swordsmanship, and has decided to challenge the various Bushi in the garrison to prove how much better they are than the outsiders.
Assuming the gain and loss when unmodified is more or less 'balanced', it's the clan perspectives which sway it either way.
* Kami may not actually be called Kevin.
Edited by Magnus GrendelTogashi Yokuni is an armored monk.
Or is he? His card says bushi/shugenja.
But then hes all tattooed.
What a badarse!
4 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:Togashi Yokuni is an armored monk.
Or is he? His card says bushi/shugenja.
But then hes all tattooed.
What a badarse!
He's a tamashii, a vessel for the Kami Togashi's soul. Not really a good reference for what ordinary mortals can or can't do. ?
Are there minor "kami" ?
Like i know kamis are togashi, doji, shino etc and papa moon, mama sun, fu leng and the guy we can't name.
But when a shugenja invoke kamis, there are also random elemental kamis? This is not clear in the book.
Just now, Avatar111 said:Are there minor "kami" ?
Like i know kamis are togashi, doji, shino etc and papa moon, mama sun, fu leng and the guy we can't name.
But when a shugenja invoke kamis, there are also random elemental kamis? This is not clear in the book.
Yes, there are the Kami and then there are kami. The latter are merely unnamed elemental spirits that can be found anywhere if you have the ability to communicate with them. It's those Shugenja invoke, not the capital K Kami who are the gods of Rokugan. They both have an entry in the glossary, but what kami are and do could have been explained a bit better, yes.
58 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:Yes, there are the Kami and then there are kami. The latter are merely unnamed elemental spirits that can be found anywhere if you have the ability to communicate with them. It's those Shugenja invoke, not the capital K Kami who are the gods of Rokugan. They both have an entry in the glossary, but what kami are and do could have been explained a bit better, yes.
Some kami who are properly worshipped and stay in a location for a long time do grow in strength. I think it was addressed by that Tadaka story I can't think of, where he dueled his master.
13 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:Some kami who are properly worshipped and stay in a location for a long time do grow in strength. I think it was addressed by that Tadaka story I can't think of, where he dueled his master.
Yes, absolutely. They'll never be Kami though, and they remain elemental spirits.
Shugenja don't wear armor because it is frowned upon. it goes sort of into the whole argument of them being peaceful/above war,as they are priests. There is nothing stopping them from wearing armor except that it would be a social faux pas. In part, if you are wearing armor, again you are expected to defend yourself (or otherwise, why are you wearing armor?). Also, it would be hard for a shugenja to get armor in a socially acceptable fashion. Normally you ask your daimyo. Your daimyo would ask why, you'd have to give a good answer, or they would refuse. Or you could buy it, but buying it is considered crass, as it is an insult to your daimyo for not supplying you with what you need. There would be no additional mechanical effects than what was already listed, just social ones.
Togashi Yokuni is just special (We don't know if he is the Kami Togashi or not, yet).
1 hour ago, Hida Jitenno said:Some kami who are properly worshipped and stay in a location for a long time do grow in strength. I think it was addressed by that Tadaka story I can't think of, where he dueled his master.
Repentance Does Not Come First
Essentially it's like Shinto - almost every grove of trees, stream, mountain, whatever has a local spirit - how old, powerful and irritable they are may vary - and certainly each shrine is likely to be built at an especially 'holy' spot.
Check out Outsiders for some fiction set in a (non-clan-name) kami shrine.
Edited by Magnus Grendelso there are fortune shrines, kami shrines and Kami shrines ?
1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:so there are fortune shrines, kami shrines and Kami shrines ?
And shrines to your ancestor.
Kami shrines will mostly be in clan. Fortune shrines are everywhere people live, though one area might focus on one fortune over another (Example, a shrine to Osano-Wo might be bigger in Crab or Mantis lands, than in Crane, who will focus more on Benten). Shrines to kami are typically smaller, depending on their power and importance. It could be something small, like just a tiny enclosure with a statue, and can be all over the place, appropriate to the type of kami and where it lives. Like you might build a wooden structure in front of the oldest tree to either that tree or the kami of the forest.
Shrines to your ancestors will typically be in family lands, but it could be something where you'd have one in your house too.
Edited by Mirith
5 hours ago, Avatar111 said:Are there minor "kami" ?
Like i know kamis are togashi, doji, shino etc and papa moon, mama sun, fu leng and the guy we can't name.
But when a shugenja invoke kamis, there are also random elemental kamis? This is not clear in the book.
Yes, there are minor kami everywhere. Everything has an associated kami and/or kansen.
Shinto is animistic; everything has a spirit that can be addressed. Shinseism is based upon Shugendō, which is even more animistic than "mainstream Shinto" (and incorporates Buddhist and Taoist elements in the same proportions as Shinseism as described in prior editions)... The biggest difference is that in L5R shinseism, in the samurai/shugenja approach, is that it provably works in a very showy manner that the Kami do intervene...
Invocations are to the minor Kami, but also not (normally) to the greater kami, either. Every puddle has a minor kami of water... but the water spells require either many puddles or a small pond to have a strong enough kami to be useful. The ocean has its named kami, but also large/powerful local kami within it, and lesser kami for each current, each eddy along a shore or reef, etc.
Whether your shugenja can actually hear the least powerful Kami is a GM call. The most powerful won't listen unless you use the exact rituals. It's the ones in the middle that give the invocations power.
duplicate
Edited by AK_Aramis23 hours ago, Avatar111 said:maybe he is a peasant who trained in secret all his life because he hated samurais and the cast system ? basically inventing an ashigaru yari fighting style that counters the katana ?
WHO KNOWS !!!
If samurai finds out he's done so, said peasant can expect a whole lot of arrows in his future, and poison in his drinks. He's a threat to the social order.
Plus, given the setting, some kami will eventually tell some shugenja, who will tell the Daimyō, who will order his capture and/or death. If captured, he'll be compelled to teach it to the samurai, who will then develop counters to it...
Or the void kami might inspire some monk, who them goes and learns it, and then passes it on to the samurai, just to keep the natural order.
One of the key fantasy elements of L5R is that the several elements of the setting are actually part of the metaphysics and/or physics of the L5R setting.
(duplicate)
Edited by AK_Aramis(duplicate)
Edited by AK_AramisYeah, feudal systems have an exactly zero survival rate if the peasantry starts getting into their heads that their betters are not, in fact, their betters (in Rokugan, their betters ARE, in fact, their betters, because they have more kami blood in them).