10 hours ago, Mirith said:

Also, there are always Kuni resident on the southern wall.

Indeed. They have to have a more 'front line soldier' mentality because some stuff that comes out of the south isn't vulnerable to anything but (or at least without) the attentions of a more martial-minded shujenga.

"The balance of the elements" and "spiritual harmony" and all that stuff the Asahina and Isawa witter on about is great, but not entirely the highest priority when there's a twenty-foot high oni made of lava and burning bone smashing down your front door.

4 hours ago, Waywardpaladin said:

You challenge the shugenja and his yojimbo has to step forward and answer.

Exactly. If someone has a yojimbo, then it's perfectly honourable for said champion to answer the challenge, and trying to create a situation where they can't do so is being the dishonourable party because you know they would and should be able to.

If a shujenga or monk is fighting front line on a battlefield, though, I don't see why you couldn't freely offer challenge. I agree with @AK_Aramis

that it's impious to kill a monk, but I also agree with @nameless ronin ; if they want to claim 'spiritual immunity as a holy person' they shouldn't be kiho-punching my lord's vassals through nearby walls, trees and other topographical features.

If they're part of the enemy army and are fighting openly, then (assuming you're fighting honourably for the 'right' side*) you are at liberty to freely attack an enemy combatant, and challenging them is probably the more honourable course of action; it lets them select a champion and/or surrender rather than just being stabbed in a melee by a faceless opponent.

* Because of course all samurai are doing that all the time and no PC would ever dream of acting dishonourably. Honest.

To be fair, in Japan, a lot of battles were, X guys step forward, and meet an equal number from the opposing side, and then they cycled through, so the idea of a challenge is actually pretty traditional and respected in most normal fights (Assuming a specific goal). To some extent, unless they were on the front lines or actively fighting I don't think you would actually challenge a shugenja, out of respect for their position. Otherwise you'd just probably kill them, as they are probably doing some really awful things to your troops.

Isn't there something also about it being frowned upon in using Shugenja directly in warfare? Ignoring the Shadowlands of course.

the specific concern/question I had was regarding the "challenge" action in Skirmishes (not mass battle or what not).

if there is a random skirmish in a bar (ok, a tea house). can anybody just throw a challenge action to anybody, and if that person refuse they lose glory + the person issuing the challenge gain a void point ?

i'm trying to figure out how you GMs out there would deal with the "challenge action" (in the skirmish chapter). Can a Samurai bushi just challenge the random drunk ashigaru in the skirmish ? or ****, can you challenge the goblin in the skirmish ? and if he refuse you get a void point ??

2 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

the specific concern/question I had was regarding the "challenge" action in Skirmishes (not mass battle or what not).

if there is a random skirmish in a bar (ok, a tea house). can anybody just throw a challenge action to anybody, and if that person refuse they lose glory + the person issuing the challenge gain a void point ?

i'm trying to figure out how you GMs out there would deal with the "challenge action" (in the skirmish chapter). Can a Samurai bushi just challenge the random drunk ashigaru in the skirmish ? or ****, can you challenge the goblin in the skirmish ? and if he refuse you get a void point ??

Still waiting for Emerald Empire for some general guidelines, but the rule of thumb is: you can do anything you want. What happens when you do something often depends more on the perception of it than on the act itself though. Challenge a rando for no reason? They shouldn't lose anything for refusing. Make it appear like he's a coward for refusing however? Glory loss for them if they still refuse. They make it appear like you should be doing your duty for your lord but are drinking and starting fights instead? Glory loss for you. If you don't have a plausible pretext for a challenge, the outcome can go any which way depending on how the circumstances look to others.

edit: where is this "challenge refused = Void point gained" in the book, btw?

edit²: found the VP thing under the challenge action. The target has to be able to stake honor and glory to accept, and forfeit glory to refuse. I'd say not having glory or honor makes a gobbo an invalid target so you couldn't challenge them in the first place. Also, technically you only gain the VP after they forfeit: if they don't forfeit - because they have nothing to forfeit - you don't gain a VP anyway.

One thing to remember about Bushidō — the 11 standard virtues are at odds with each other. The 12 virtues (7 great ones, 5 lesser ones not directly mentioned in the RPG) have some serious conflicts.

• greater virtues
  • 義 Gi Justice
  • 勇 Yū Courage
  • 仁 Jin Benevolent Action
  • 礼 Rei Politeness
  • 真 Makoto Truth
  • 名誉 Meiyo Honor
  • 忠義 Chūgi Loyalty
• Lesser Virtues
  • 自制 jisei Self-Control
  • 孝 Kō Filial piety
  • 智 Chi Wisdom
  • 悌 Tei Fraternal Respect
  • 誠実 Seijitsu Sincerity
    
• Politeness often prevents Justice, Courage, and Truth
• Loyalty has times where it prevents justice and truth
• Self-control, as expressed in the Samurai context, prevents truth and courage
• Honor limits both benevolence and courage
• benevolence is often at odds with justice
• Sincerity and Truth often demand different things.

This is why Bushidō is so compelling a story-tool: it creates drama within itself.

In Bushidō, as practiced, balancing them all was the ephemeral goal, leading to either simply picking a few, or constantly striving to be better... but constantly failing one or more.

Challenging an ashigaru (or any other peasant) is cause to dock you Glory points then and there, even if they don't accept. It might even cost you Honour, because there's a case to be made it goes against, at least, the tenet of Compassion.

This is because the ashigaru are not as good as you, and everyone acknowledges this, including the ashigaru. When you challenge an ashigaru, people consider that you might as well be asking him to reverse the flow of rivers. You have the pure blood of the kami, whereas the peasantry... doesn't. This makes you, unequivocally, better. It's like challenging a three year old to armwrestle - sure, you're going to win, but people aren't going to look at you and say "Well done, that man." They're going to look at you and say "Look at that jerk, picking on a three year old."

1 hour ago, nameless ronin said:

Still waiting for Emerald Empire for some general guidelines, but the rule of thumb is: you can do anything you want. What happens when you do something often depends more on the perception of it than on the act itself though. Challenge a rando for no reason? They shouldn't lose anything for refusing. Make it appear like he's a coward for refusing however? Glory loss for them if they still refuse. They make it appear like you should be doing your duty for your lord but are drinking and starting fights instead? Glory loss for you. If you don't have a plausible pretext for a challenge, the outcome can go any which way depending on how the circumstances look to others.

edit: where is this "challenge refused = Void point gained" in the book, btw?

edit²: found the VP thing under the challenge action. The target has to be able to stake honor and glory to accept, and forfeit glory to refuse. I'd say not having glory or honor makes a gobbo an invalid target so you couldn't challenge them in the first place. Also, technically you only gain the VP after they forfeit: if they don't forfeit - because they have nothing to forfeit - you don't gain a VP anyway.

but an ashigaru have some glory.

i'll just stick with putting "narrative" limits. basically, you cannot throw challenge left and right, the target have to be same station as you; in example, a shugenja vs a shugenja, or a bushi vs a bushi. anybody not in the same station as you you cannot use the challenge action on them.

sure you can still taunt challenge them narratively, but not officially with the honor/glory stake etc.

that would be for the "challenge action in skirmish".

obviously, if you are a bushi and want to challenge a courtier, and it is ok to set it to a later moment so he find a champion etc.. that is all good.

my specific concern was the skirmish action, the one that creates "clashes". but i'll just put very strict narrative boundary on it. this is not something you can do all the time on anybody.

You can totally challenge a shugenja as a bushi, provided you have cause, even in the battlefield (which gives you automatic cause). Shugenja who want to play "but I'm not a fighter" card don't participate in fights.

6 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

but an ashigaru have some glory.

And if he accepts a bushi's challenge, he should get to keep it plus get a huge posthumous award (he's not surviving the challenge), because, man, that's one brave little trooper.

Just now, JBento said:

And if he accepts a bushi's challenge, he should get to keep it plus get a huge posthumous award (he's not surviving the challenge), because, man, that's one brave little trooper.

but if he refuses.. you make a void point

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

but if he refuses.. you make a void point

But lose a crapton of Glory/Honour, because you just challenged a three year old to armwrestle.

11 minutes ago, JBento said:

But lose a crapton of Glory/Honour, because you just challenged a three year old to armwrestle.

Essentially, yes. I don't like using absolutes though. It's a subtle setting. There can always be circumstances. If you're in the middle of a large skirmish and see an ashigaru among your opponents who is fighting his heart out and kicking *** left and right, why shouldn't you be allowed to challenge him on penalty of honor and glory loss? He's already fighting against your side, so unless he gives up or someone else gets to him first you're going to fight him anyway. And if he's the most impressive of your opponents, why is there dishonor in singling him out? Now, maybe using the challenge action as is isn't entirely appropriate in this instance - maybe it's better to just call him out but not call it a challenge - but I just feel hard social rules are next to impossible to enforce in Rokugan.

Because it doesn't matter how good the ashigaru IS, you're better because you're closer to the gods. Basically, everyone expects you to mow him down in the battlefield anyway, along with a couple of his friends, so when you say "face me on one-on-one, ashigaru" you're basically saying that the peasant is as good as you, which is a ridiculous notion in Rokugan. Sure, it's the strongest three year old around, but he's still, y'know, a three year old.

So I'm pretty sure my question has been answered. Not sure where the duel discussion came in. Was mostly just wondering how many courtly hand fans would start fluttering overtime if one of my players (a Crab shugenja) was toting around a katana (and using it in battle regularly) in addition to his "badge-of-office" wakizashi, and how the same would be perceived of a more traditional shugenja like from the Phoenix clan.

1 minute ago, drbraininajar said:

So I'm pretty sure my question has been answered. Not sure where the duel discussion came in. Was mostly just wondering how many courtly hand fans would start fluttering overtime if one of my players (a Crab shugenja) was toting around a katana (and using it in battle regularly) in addition to his "badge-of-office" wakizashi, and how the same would be perceived of a more traditional shugenja like from the Phoenix clan.

Fun fact: though Rokugan is still to hit on steam power, the forums already have and made a bunch of runaway trains. ?

Oh, the Phoenix will judge the **** out of that Crab, but they were gonna do that before you started carrying a katana.

That said, the beauty of being Crab is you care less about such judgment, because you prefer to be able to stab Goblins and zombies rather than have to try and dial a kami for every little thing.

the Crab Shugenja, especially, is trained in Katas also. So that could make sense.

but then again, where did you find your katana ? if it isn't your lord who gave it to you?

and i'm guess that if you wield a katana, you are also putting yourself into the "can be challenged by the blade" category.

Yeah so after all that discussion my player actually ended up choosing a bokken over a katana (long story. short version: his "relationship with other clans" question gift was from the Kakita family, where his spouse he chose for his 'Blessed Betrothal' advantage came from)

Their reasoning: the in-laws expect him to learn dueling at some point and so the bokken is his "honorary Kakita student" badge. When he comes to the academy and passes all the same tests their daughter did, he'll be set up with a "real" Kakita forged katana

Just now, Avatar111 said:

but then again, where did you find your katana ? if it isn't your lord who gave it to you? 

Obviously can't speak for that specific character, but if you want a katana it's real easy to pick up in Character Creation in the gift/trophy receiving question.

1 minute ago, drbraininajar said:

short version: his "relationship with other clans" question gift

Shinobi'd (because ninja are a myth)

2 minutes ago, drbraininajar said:

Yeah so after all that discussion my player actually ended up choosing a bokken over a katana (long story. short version: his "relationship with other clans" question gift was from the Kakita family, where his spouse he chose for his 'Blessed Betrothal' advantage came from)

oh, ok. she gave him a katana ? what a nice gal.

then it 100% depends what he wants to do with it, is he trained with it ? does he know katas ? is it just a gift accumulating dust in his home ?

so many possibilities !

10 minutes ago, JBento said:

Because it doesn't matter how good the ashigaru IS, you're better because you're closer to the gods. Basically, everyone expects you to mow him down in the battlefield anyway, along with a couple of his friends, so when you say "face me on one-on-one, ashigaru" you're basically saying that the peasant is as good as you, which is a ridiculous notion in Rokugan. Sure, it's the strongest three year old around, but he's still, y'know, a three year old.

What if he just killed three actual samurai in that same skirmish? What if you acknowledged his skill publicly in your challenge and present it like showing him respect for his accomplishments in that fight (even if you'll totally kill him)? Again, it's all about how it's perceived.

11 minutes ago, drbraininajar said:

Yeah so after all that discussion my player actually ended up choosing a bokken over a katana (long story. short version: his "relationship with other clans" question gift was from the Kakita family, where his spouse he chose for his 'Blessed Betrothal' advantage came from)

oh, ok. she gave him a katana ? what a nice gal.

then it 100% depends what he wants to do with it, is he trained with it ? does he know katas ? is it just a gift accumulating dust in his home ?

so many possibilities

Nah the in-laws gave him an official "Kakita Academy Student" bokken as a wedding gift, both to honor him as being worthy of their daughter/family, and to challenge him to learn their clan culture.

Just now, nameless ronin said:

What if he just killed three actual samurai in that same skirmish? What if you acknowledged his skill publicly in your challenge and present it like showing him respect for his accomplishments in that fight (even if you'll totally kill him)? Again, it's all about how it's perceived.

If that thing was in single combat (as opposed to say, about 20 ashigaru piling on the samurai), then those samurai were incompetent buffoons and have brought much dishonour to their families and their clans.

Because in Rokugan, peasants aren't people to the same level samurai are people (isn't the name of their caste literally "half-people"?). This is a basic of the setting, and the entire empire would literally collapse if peasants started thinking otherwise.

1 minute ago, JBento said:

If that thing was in single combat (as opposed to say, about 20 ashigaru piling on the samurai), then those samurai were incompetent buffoons and have brought much dishonour to their families and their clans.

And if I had a problem with that, the best way to lessen their shame would be to hype up the man who killed them - and then make sure he ends up dead.

8 minutes ago, JBento said:

If that thing was in single combat (as opposed to say, about 20 ashigaru piling on the samurai), then those samurai were incompetent buffoons and have brought much dishonour to their families and their clans.

Because in Rokugan, peasants aren't people to the same level samurai are people (isn't the name of their caste literally "half-people"?). This is a basic of the setting, and the entire empire would literally collapse if peasants started thinking otherwise.

maybe he is a peasant who trained in secret all his life because he hated samurais and the cast system ? basically inventing an ashigaru yari fighting style that counters the katana ?

WHO KNOWS !!!