I'm just going over the Creatures book, and came across the Genestealer's skill set. He's got UnAgX2 for an Ag Bonus of 12, fair enough, but also Lightning Reflexes, where he doubles his Ag bonus for rolling Initiative.

Does this mean he doubles his Ag Bonus on 6 to 12 and then adds a D10 for Initiative ---or--- does he take his Ag Bonus of 6, double it to 12 from UnAgX2, and then double it again to 24 for Lightning Reflexes before rolling the D10.

I mean, in most cases D10+12 for Initiative is academic - the 'Stealer is probably going to go first even on an average D10 roll - but it could be important, so I wanted to make sure it wasn't D10+24.

Thanks!

BYE

As I understand it, yes, it has an initiative of 1d10 +24. Eldar dire avengers also have that combo, for a nearly equally ludicrous 1d10 +20.

A decent Psyker with Preternatural Awareness and a decent Willpower could probably beat them both, though!

All right, cool, I'll run with that.

I mean, Genestealers are meant to be Ludicrous Speed fast, so I don't mind it. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't misreading or misinterpreting something.

At most my players get a 14... or maybe 15 for our Hive-Born Guardsman (thanks to Wary). So, assuming it was 12 and not 24, even on an average roll Mr. Genestealer would still get 17.5, but +24 just shows how stupid-fast he is.

And thanks for the speedy reply.

BYE

I think they decided (citation needed) that multipliers add cumulatively not multiplicat...

So it should be AB X 3 or +18 in this case.

I remember reading that in the Unnatural [Whatever] section, where it says that getting a second set of Unnatural [Characteristic] doesn't mean you double the thing (eg. Unnatural Ag gained a second time doesn't mean you X2 the already X2'ed number, it means you just X3 the original number).

Lightning Reflexes is separate to that, as it only related to Initiative rolls and says that the Ag Bonus is doubled. I'd have to say that if your Ag Bonus is doubled due to Unnatural Agility, then Lightning Reflexes logically doubles that new number, rather than just making it X3.

Again, as I said, it doesn't matter all that much in the end as most PC's can't get such stupid high Init rolls anyway , I was just checking for my own peace of mind.

BYE

AG bonus 6 + Unnatural Agility x2 + Lightning Reflexes does indeed = 1D10+24 Init. Yes, it IS gross! Yes, Eldar do the same thing. Yes, so do Ascention characters.

If you are an Exarch, powerful seer-type Psyker, ascended Death Cult assassin or Temple Assassin then there are pretty good odds you can actually stomp the hell out of the Genestealer's reaction speed.

Fortunately for your Guardsman, as a faithful servant of the Emperor he has nothing to fear from such puny claws! The Primer tells us so.

That's true. I think the example of X2 + X2 = X3 was for deamonic + unnatural toughness and thus the TB for all but very specific examples. Not as is the case the effective addition to a roll.

I'm actually glad it works out +24. Genestealers should always go first against you feeble humans. The fact that ascession characters can beat this gauls me.

We need post ascension Genestealer stat's thank you very much, seeing as they are still faster and more skilled than a temple assassin.

Yeah, just did the math on a Death Cult Assassin.

Assuming Ag Bonus of 5, a Death Cult Assassin that is Hive Born (originally) and therefore has 'Wary', plus the Paranoid Talent, Unnatural Agility X4 and Lightning Reflexes would get 1D10+43!!! The D10's kinda redundant at that point. I don't think anyone besides another Death Cult Assassin could roll above a 43.

As for 'galling' you? Well, in the fluff Vindicares are better than Marines. I have no problems with their stats being above and beyond. I just can't wait to see how Deathwatch is compatible with all this.

BYE

Face Eater said:

Isn't there a daemon with Unnatural Toughness and Daemonic Toughness that explicitly has 4x Toughness Bonus against most attacks?

Unusualsuspect said:

You're right, in Disciples of the Dark Gods there's the Rakasya, p 129, that explicitly states that Daemonic and Unnatural toughness stack in that way.

H.B.M.C. said:

<Weep>

H.B.M.C. said:

I've got no problem with Vindicare being better than marines. That's there lifestyle choice. But genestealers are supposed to be better than Temple Assassins, as you say ludicously fast, as fast as an Autarch in fact.

Be interesting to see how they stand up to the Marine rules when they are official but at the current rate well need new GS stats to pose a threat to them.

Yeah ignore my stat addition then I can't even remember where I got from.

Better than Assassins?

I tend to ignore 40K 3rd through 5th edition when comparing units as everything is so squashed towards the middle that it's hard to differentiate between people (so Guardians, Guardsman and Storm Troopers are all WS3, despite their obvious differences in training, physiology, and combat techniques?).

2nd Ed is a better place to look, when characters were a bit beefier. Genestealers were monsters, and 2-3 of them could topple a Space Marine Captain in short order. Assassins? They were better. Few things in the game could match Assassins.

BYE

Yeah, at least faster and better skilled. Obviously a lot more squishy, no invulnerable saves or multiple wounds. But available in numbers (and going first, yikes).

The stats in Anathema are very dangerous for pre ascended acolytes, i buffed em a bit but used them with hybrids rather than in groups of purestrains. But there a good ascension enemy if the stats are fiddled with. Hell, I guess there supposed to a Deathwatch level enemy really and high one at that.