15 hours ago, Myrion said:If it's a duel, then I can draw both with a single opp on an Iai tech, if not, we'll have started far enough apart that I can have both drawn before we're in melee range.
But if you don't draw both, he can't bind both. One drawn, gets bound. Your turn, you're close enough to use an Iai tech, use your sheathed weapon and smack him for a critical. If you don't have an Iai tech, water stance, draw and Strike.
2 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:But if you don't draw both, he can't bind both. One drawn, gets bound. Your turn, you're close enough to use an Iai tech, use your sheathed weapon and smack him for a critical. If you don't have an Iai tech, water stance, draw and Strike.
Uh, Iais aren't autocrits (except Rising if the opponent is compromised). That's Finishing Blows. Strikes are actually better at critting than Iais. I do agree that you shouldn't have both weapons out when fighting someone with CSS, though.
3 minutes ago, JBento said:Uh, Iais aren't autocrits (except Rising if the opponent is compromised). That's Finishing Blows. Strikes are actually better at critting than Iais. I do agree that you shouldn't have both weapons out when fighting someone with CSS, though.
Yeah, sorry. I forgot the Crossing Cut's critical in an Iai duel is from Finishing Blow, not the kata itself. Thank you.
totally insane that with a merely 2 opps you can bind 2 weapons without any resist whatsoever, with a trident.
same thing as earth stance in duels, i'm beyond trying to see what you can do to go around CSS, i just houserule it, because I do think it is poorly designed, too strong for its rank and easiness to activate.
but most importantly, it is unfun because of the frequency at which it happens. it is almost everytime the guy attack, you have to deal with a bind weapon... its not like your npcs all have 4 katanas, Iaijutsu strikes or what not. And i really don't feel like always taking into consideration CSS when designing every fight encounters.
that big Ogre ? i'll bind his giant club. EASY.
gtfo lol...
Edited by Avatar111
Again, my solution for something like Coiled Serpent Strike is usually "Add more dudes", because combat in L5R 5th Edition truly comes down to the optimization issue of "Action economy".
What makes CSS so powerful is that it affects the Action Economy of combat. By restricting the Action choices of your opponent, you are instituting either an Action tax (you must enter Water stance or have a means to ready a weapon as part of an attack) or restricting their options. As a GM, my go-to solution for this is just to add a Minion to the combat for every character with CSS. Yes, you can keep binding more weapons, but it is the best solution I have found.
This is not to say that CSS is balanced. Based on what I have seen, I actually think that @Avatar111 is on the money. CSS is powerful, probably more so than it should be for its rank, and it should be reworked to be brought in line. This will always be the issue with "a la carte" game mechanics. Balancing them ALL is hard, and figuring out combos is how you create power variance between characters. This is the largest flaw with 3rd Edition D&D and its various children (3.5E, Pathfinder, etc).
Regarding the Ogre... Bind his club, and get punched in the face? The fact that there aren't a form of grapple rules at present are also interesting. How do I grab onto someone with my fist as a giant ogre, and play "Put out the Samurai!" without grappling rules?
12 minutes ago, sndwurks said:Again, my solution for something like Coiled Serpent Strike is usually "Add more dudes", because combat in L5R 5th Edition truly comes down to the optimization issue of "Action economy".
What makes CSS so powerful is that it affects the Action Economy of combat. By restricting the Action choices of your opponent, you are instituting either an Action tax (you must enter Water stance or have a means to ready a weapon as part of an attack) or restricting their options. As a GM, my go-to solution for this is just to add a Minion to the combat for every character with CSS. Yes, you can keep binding more weapons, but it is the best solution I have found.
This is not to say that CSS is balanced. Based on what I have seen, I actually think that @Avatar111 is on the money. CSS is powerful, probably more so than it should be for its rank, and it should be reworked to be brought in line. This will always be the issue with "a la carte" game mechanics. Balancing them ALL is hard, and figuring out combos is how you create power variance between characters. This is the largest flaw with 3rd Edition D&D and its various children (3.5E, Pathfinder, etc).
Regarding the Ogre... Bind his club, and get punched in the face? The fact that there aren't a form of grapple rules at present are also interesting. How do I grab onto someone with my fist as a giant ogre, and play "Put out the Samurai!" without grappling rules?
grappling is basically using punch(they have snaring quality) and spend opp = to target's vigilence (basic snaring quality) to immobilise the target.
then again, if you have CSS you are also a better grappler as 2opps will immobilise your target right away (instead of having to spend as many as the target's vigilance). so, yeah, that ogre can immobilize you while punching, and probably eventually beat you down (if you have low vigilance, because otherwise he would need too many opportunities to immobilise you).
don't go out without CSS. is all I can say. You can use it with your punches too. The technique is too good.
Edited by Avatar1117 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:don't go out without CSS. is all I can say. You can use it with your punches too. The technique is too good.
I do not have the book in front of me. Does it not specify a Martial Arts skill in its description? I know that is how the rules are limiting some of the other Techniques. You cannot use a Martial Arts [Melee] Technique with Martial Arts [Unarmed] attacks, and all that jazz.
1 minute ago, sndwurks said:I do not have the book in front of me. Does it not specify a Martial Arts skill in its description? I know that is how the rules are limiting some of the other Techniques. You cannot use a Martial Arts [Melee] Technique with Martial Arts [Unarmed] attacks, and all that jazz.
CSS works with martial(melee) and martial(unarmed). pretty sure. But I could be wrong, would need to double check when i'm home.
9 minutes ago, sndwurks said:I do not have the book in front of me. Does it not specify a Martial Arts skill in its description? I know that is how the rules are limiting some of the other Techniques. You cannot use a Martial Arts [Melee] Technique with Martial Arts [Unarmed] attacks, and all that jazz.
You can use it with MA [Melee] or MA [Unarmed], provided the weapon profile has the snaring quality. Guess all those folks with Snaring bows are out of luck... >_>
Edited by JBento7 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:CSS works with martial(melee) and martial(unarmed). pretty sure. But I could be wrong, would need to double check when i'm home.
That's correct.
8 minutes ago, JBento said:You can use it with MA [Melee] or MA [Unarmed], provided the weapon profile has the snaring quality. Guess all those folks with Snaring bows are out of luck... >_>
Kariamata or Rope Cutter Arrows would probably be a good source of "Give your Bow the Snaring Quality". And technically, I don't see why you cannot have a "Bola" as a Martial Arts [Ranged] weapon with the Snaring quality.
1 minute ago, sndwurks said:Kariamata or Rope Cutter Arrows would probably be a good source of "Give your Bow the Snaring Quality". And technically, I don't see why you cannot have a "Bola" as a Martial Arts [Ranged] weapon with the Snaring quality.
I am as of yet unsure you can snag a Snaring ranged weapon with Bo of Water. I suspect not, but my question is in the mail. Regardless, you can't CSS with it.
IF you ever give ranged weapon the ability to use CSS, i'll flip a table.
1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:IF you ever give ranged weapon the ability to use CSS, i'll flip a table.
I'm AFB, but I *THINK* You can already ranged CSS? What's that Kata that lets you throw your weapon? Does it use MA [Melee] or [Ranged]? If it uses [Melee], you can totally pin people to the ground by throwing Tridents at them. Just make sure you bring a lot of tridents.
Just now, JBento said:I'm AFB, but I *THINK* You can already ranged CSS? What's that Kata that lets you throw your weapon? Does it use MA [Melee] or [Ranged]? If it uses [Melee], you can totally pin people to the ground by throwing Tridents at them. Just make sure you bring a lot of tridents.
i sure hope that kata uses [ranged] which i think it does.
21 minutes ago, JBento said:I'm AFB, but I *THINK* You can already ranged CSS? What's that Kata that lets you throw your weapon? Does it use MA [Melee] or [Ranged]? If it uses [Melee], you can totally pin people to the ground by throwing Tridents at them. Just make sure you bring a lot of tridents.
Isn't CSS specifically listed under "Close Combat Kata"?
3 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:Isn't CSS specifically listed under "Close Combat Kata"?
wouldn't matter if you can use "melee" skill to throw a weapon with Soaring Slice (i think thats the name) kata. but i'm pretty sure Soaring Slice is a "ranged" check.
1 minute ago, Hida Jitenno said:Isn't CSS specifically listed under "Close Combat Kata"?
I *think* so. I think it's the first one. But I think the one where you throw your weapon isn't under Ranged Kata, so, y'know. I don't think that the CC Kata and Ranged Kata headers actually MEAN anything other than ease of reference. They don't really DO that, because you have to check the general kata and the ranged katas take up like a page or something.
2 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:wouldn't matter if you can use "melee" skill to throw a weapon with Soaring Slice (i think thats the name) kata. but i'm pretty sure Soaring Slice is a "ranged" check.
That's a pretty useless kata, then. If I have to use my ranged skill, I might as well Water and shoot/Pelting Hail people in the face with an actual bow.
Just now, JBento said:I *think* so. I think it's the first one. But I think the one where you throw your weapon isn't under Ranged Kata, so, y'know. I don't think that the CC Kata and Ranged Kata headers actually MEAN anything other than ease of reference. They don't really DO that, because you have to check the general kata and the ranged katas take up like a page or something.
That's a pretty useless kata, then. If I have to use my ranged skill, I might as well Water and shoot/Pelting Hail people in the face with an actual bow.
not "useless" its got some extra stuff going on with it. and its cool to use sometimes.
sure it aint CSS or Pelting Hail level of broken... pelting hail is also awful design btw.
4 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:not "useless" its got some extra stuff going on with it. and its cool to use sometimes.
sure it aint CSS or Pelting Hail level of broken... pelting hail is also awful design btw.
Ugh, not having the book back until Friday so I can check stuff is killing me here -.-
For reference: Soaring Slice specifically uses whatever skill is associated with the weapon, and it has a range of 2-3 with potentially more based on opp. So CSS with Soaring Slice checks out. I will now go laugh hysterically in my bedroom.
1 minute ago, Corg Ironside said:For reference: Soaring Slice specifically uses whatever skill is associated with the weapon, and it has a range of 2-3 with potentially more based on opp. So CSS with Soaring Slice checks out. I will now go laugh hysterically in my bedroom.
Eh, this is literally the least problematic use of CSS, to the point it isn't a problem at all. I mean, unless your samurai is walking around with a cartfull of tridents and the other guy doesn't have a bow and Pelting Hail.
2 minutes ago, JBento said:Eh, this is literally the least problematic use of CSS, to the point it isn't a problem at all. I mean, unless your samurai is walking around with a cartfull of tridents and the other guy doesn't have a bow and Pelting Hail.
well, you can throw nunchakus or sais ?
whatever, this god awful CSS technique have to be reworked, it is a cesspit of abuses.
and pelting arrows... probably need to get checked too.
For CSS I’m just going to rule that each spend can only be triggered once per use and both weapons are unusable until the effect ends. (Note I’d probably still allow the Kama end of a Kusari-gama to be used considering that’s how the weapon is wielded. Tangle ‘em up and stab away!
I can imagine someone entangling a warrior and their weapon spending 3, but not multiple weapons or targets.
That is not all that hard to reign in.
1 minute ago, Mark It Zero said:For CSS I’m just going to rule that each spend can only be triggered once per use and both weapons are unusable until the effect ends. (Note I’d probably still allow the Kama end of a Kusari-gama to be used considering that’s how the weapon is wielded. Tangle ‘em up and stab away!
I can imagine someone entangling a warrior and their weapon spending 3, but not multiple weapons or targets.
That is not all that hard to reign in.
if you entangle the weapon, but not the guy. and the guy decide to move out. he still cannot use his weapon to attack ?
got it.