One thing I have noticed in playing FFG SWRPG versus using other systems to run a game in the Star Wars universe, is that this game is designed for the Mechanics to have primacy over the Character Concept (except of course when the concept is simply the mechanics, or book definition of the character). At least in what seems to be average culture of play, Progression and mechanics are given a front seat (or sometimes the only seat) in the mix. As an old gamer, I prefer to have characters that are not cardboard standees right out of the rulebook.

But, there is some ability to play the game in a more Concept-centric manner.

For Example. If you were to make a character who is supposed to be the callow youth and you want to stay that way for a while you could bank XP and essentially stave off advancement. A player with a lot of discipline and a real love of their concept could do this. If they felt they were advancing too much the player can actually throttle their advancement.

Conversely, if you want to start play with a more static arc like say: a grizzled Clone War Commando who is at the top of his game because of mercenary work, you would have to either get lucky as you play a 100 xp character trying to be like a heavy-hitting expert soldier, or you could ask the Gm for an advance on XP and then just not move in XP until everyone else catches up. Maybe even not moving much after that if suddenly advancing in powers and abilities would go against the character's concept.

A factor in this is How visible are the mechanics in play? If the character's ability isn't being described much in play then having a big overdose of personal power (or being very weak) is less noticeable. But if the character is gaining visible talents on a basis that would make Skynet jealous of the PCs learning ability, then you either have to explain it somehow or live with the contradiction.

Another factor is the low lethality of the system, or at least how the average group seems to use the system, as in anecdotal conversations I have had it seems like most GMs have not actually killed PCs hardly at all in their tenures.

I recognize that the Out-Of-The-Book style is popular and promoted by FFG, but it doesn't mean that you can't have the system work for the story more than for itself.

Okay this may not be the answer you are expecting or looking for but this is a cogent response.

There are two reasons to play FFG Star Wars;

1) FFG Star Wars rules provide a good balance so that Non-Force sensitive character's aren't impractical or irrelevant when compared to Force Sensitive characters.

On of the recurring issues and problems is that certain settings and systems have twinked out character classes/races that overshadow the rest of the options. So in D&D, I'm going to play an elf. Yeah they are OP. In LotR I'm DEFINITELY playing an Elf!!! With a Star Trek game I'm running a Vulcan because they're stronger, smarter, and better at everything. In Star Wars it's the Jedi.

However FFG balanced force users and non-force users so that if you don't play the "preferred" class you don't spend most of the session catching up on your crochet while the "Jedi" cuts a ozone ridden swath through the opposition.

2) The narrative dice.

Other than that, my opinion is that FFG Star Wars is a pretty weak RPG rule set.

And yet I've been playing this game for a solid two plus years now and I'm looking at several more years in the immediate future.

Archlite mentioned the "Grizzled War Veteran" as a character concept and I challenge you ALL to offer an RPG rule set that works well for that rule set.

The problem with a "Grizzled Veteran" is that character comes with a storied background with lots of good and bad experiences and has formulated their jaded world view on the background of their colorful experiences. Say like you would expect from a level 15+ D&D character? Yep.

So starting characters with their dearth of experience won't work to formulate that background. I mean if you show up with the "Level 1" War vet who can barely figure out which end of the pointy stick to swing at the enemy the first question you have to ask is, what did this character do for the duration of their military career? Peel Potatoes?!?!?

So gauntlet thrown . . .

6 minutes ago, Mark Caliber said:

Okay this may not be the answer you are expecting or looking for but this is a cogent response.

There are two reasons to play FFG Star Wars;

1) FFG Star Wars rules provide a good balance so that Non-Force sensitive character's aren't impractical or irrelevant when compared to Force Sensitive characters.

On of the recurring issues and problems is that certain settings and systems have twinked out character classes/races that overshadow the rest of the options. So in D&D, I'm going to play an elf. Yeah they are OP. In LotR I'm DEFINITELY playing an Elf!!! With a Star Trek game I'm running a Vulcan because they're stronger, smarter, and better at everything. In Star Wars it's the Jedi.

However FFG balanced force users and non-force users so that if you don't play the "preferred" class you don't spend most of the session catching up on your crochet while the "Jedi" cuts a ozone ridden swath through the opposition.

2) The narrative dice.

Other than that, my opinion is that FFG Star Wars is a pretty weak RPG rule set.

And yet I've been playing this game for a solid two plus years now and I'm looking at several more years in the immediate future.

Archlite mentioned the "Grizzled War Veteran" as a character concept and I challenge you ALL to offer an RPG rule set that works well for that rule set.

The problem with a "Grizzled Veteran" is that character comes with a storied background with lots of good and bad experiences and has formulated their jaded world view on the background of their colorful experiences. Say like you would expect from a level 15+ D&D character? Yep.

So starting characters with their dearth of experience won't work to formulate that background. I mean if you show up with the "Level 1" War vet who can barely figure out which end of the pointy stick to swing at the enemy the first question you have to ask is, what did this character do for the duration of their military career? Peel Potatoes?!?!?

So gauntlet thrown . . .

Actually, there is a system that allows just that. R.Talsorian's FUZION system, the system used for their upcoming Cyberpunk Red , Mekton Zero , and TFOS , among others, is the successor to their older Interlock system, used for Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekton Z . It actually allows you to build really advanced characters as well as relatively lower skilled characters. This is possible by taking complications that make your life harder, and potentially more dangerous, but which, in turn grant additional character points. It's life path system can also result in potentially granting extra character points.

Sitting here trying to figure out what part of " beginning character" and "grizzled war veteran at the top of his game " are equivalent.....

Now, setting aside, for the moment, that expected false equivalency, there are/have been systems like the ones Tramp mentioned that do provide a method of taking on qualities to add XP to your character creation pool. One that I played back in the day was Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG. Drawbacks and vulnerabilities could be taken at character creation, giving you more starting XP to play with. Or, you could link powers to characteristics (similar to how skills automatically are in this system); while it cost more per point to upgrade a characteristic, it could cost less in the long run to pay the link cost and do that than pay to upgrade the powers on their own. Personally, I'd say that, while similar homebrew options can be added to this game's mix, far easier was what I've done for one campaign: if your new character's been around for a while, make a story-driven case to me for some extra XP or GM grants. The whole group was on the same page that that's how we were doing things. But, being awesome players, it wasn't abused and several players still opted to go with beginning level characters.

In most RPGs and playing groups you're going to see a battle between mechanics and story. I don't see this system as much different. Even the 'right way' of putting xp into abilities at creation isn't outrageously different to systems where you may have to start without talents/feats/etc.

As far as PCs and 'grizzled veteran' concept go, I'd be trying to have the PC flesh it out a bit more for a starting character. First, I'd be throwing 'at the top of their game' out the window. The veteran could be retired and relearning skills after being drawn back into a fight, i.e. they're 'rusty'. Alternatively, hanging around with a bunch of bounty hunters or smugglers is outside the norm, and outside their comfort zone, so they're learning how to operate in their new environment.

A little more on-topic, I don't think I would encourage a player to bank their xp that way. It may end up with their contribution to the adventure falling behind others. I can see how it would contribute to a particular concept though. But even the young, inexperienced street urchin is going to start skilling up once they start travelling with others.

3 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

I have begun to suspect that Archlite is on the FFG payroll with the job requirement of trying to generate discussions to keep the forums "fresh."

If I had had time earlier, I would have mentioned GURPS of which nearly every other example seems to have . . . copied? Utilized? Co-opted? concepts from.

So now that I have a few minutes, Yeah in GURPS I could pick up an impressive Disadvantage that would offset additional skills, Advantages, etc, so it is possible to make a grizzled well seasoned veteran, but he's likely to also be crippled in some heinous fashion.

My crackshot vet is an ace sniper from the wars who could pick the flies off the back of an angry rhino at 2,000 meters, but he's blind. What? Blindness in GURPS is only a minus 10 to my shooting skill . . .

29 minutes ago, Mark Caliber said:

Blindness in GURPS is only a minus 10 to my shooting skill . . .

And down to nothing once you manage fit the white cane into the bayonet lug... at least for shots at a range of < 4 feet.

The Progression System is also a little bit flawed:

1.) First you can only raise your Characteristics with XP at Char creation.

2.) But the same XP is in the same pool for your Skillranks AND Talents.

3.) You can raise 2-4 Characteristics, which you can later do for whopping 100+ XP once in a Talent tree.

So usually you want to spend all XP on talents.

What you could do, as human for example, don´t or just raise one characteristic to 3, but spend the rest XP on Talents and Ranks only, so your body is weak (i.e. untrained) but your skills are still there.

P.S.: FFG should really do an addendum so Talents works like in Genesys.

When I first started my F&D game, I completely missed the line where Characteristics could only be raised at character creation and focused primarily on skills and talents for all my player's characters.

So I made a ruling that they could spend up to their starting XP for characteristic bumps through regular play but once that limit was hit they would have to use the talent on the trees to upgrade them. That worked pretty well in my game

39 minutes ago, Varlie said:

When I first started my F&D game, I completely missed the line where Characteristics could only be raised at character creation and focused primarily on skills and talents for all my player's characters.

So I made a ruling that they could spend up to their starting XP for characteristic bumps through regular play but once that limit was hit they would have to use the talent on the tress to upgrade them. That worked pretty well in my game

Yeah, it's a good system, lets people start with a character they are happy with without having to build ineffectively. And totally supported by Oggdude as it doesn't care about pre/post creation, it just has a limit.

14 hours ago, Roderz said:

As far as PCs and 'grizzled veteran' concept go, I'd be trying to have the PC flesh it out a bit more for a starting character. First, I'd be throwing 'at the top of their game' out the window. The veteran could be retired and relearning skills after being drawn back into a fight, i.e. they're 'rusty'. Alternatively, hanging around with a bunch of bounty hunters or smugglers is outside the norm, and outside their comfort zone, so they're learning how to operate in their new environment.

We did something similar with an NPC that ascended to PC, he was a Jedi of mild strength that barely survived Order 66 by digging into his more negative impulses. He spent the next several years alternately grateful to be alive and ashamed of how he achieved it. His connection to the Force just... slipped away* and he was accepting of that. As a PC he worked well as a starting level Bounty Hunter/Survivalist/Force Sensitive Exile on the road to reforging his connection. He can go on about the blessings the Force used to bestow on him and the feats it allowed him to achieve and he is working to be worthy of them again.

* Our group prefers to utilize the Force as a spiritual allegory first and a source of super powers second, when we use it at all

14 hours ago, Mark Caliber said:

I have begun to suspect that Archlite is on the FFG payroll with the job requirement of trying to generate discussions to keep the forums "fresh."

Awesome. Man I wish. No I'm just obsessed with TTRPGs and I love to have discussions. I learn a lot from other people even though I've bee playing and running along time, and I like to see if my suppositions hold up in material form.

16 hours ago, Roderz said:

In most RPGs and playing groups you're going to see a battle between mechanics and story. I don't see this system as much different. Even the 'right way' of putting xp into abilities at creation isn't outrageously different to systems where you may have to start without talents/feats/etc.

As far as PCs and 'grizzled veteran' concept go, I'd be trying to have the PC flesh it out a bit more for a starting character. First, I'd be throwing 'at the top of their game' out the window. The veteran could be retired and relearning skills after being drawn back into a fight, i.e. they're 'rusty'. Alternatively, hanging around with a bunch of bounty hunters or smugglers is outside the norm, and outside their comfort zone, so they're learning how to operate in their new environment.

A little more on-topic, I don't think I would encourage a player to bank their xp that way. It may end up with their contribution to the adventure falling behind others. I can see how it would contribute to a particular concept though. But even the young, inexperienced street urchin is going to start skilling up once they start travelling with others.

Yeah but that was my point though Roderz, to be able to actually have a full strength Vet and the out of the box kid in the same group. This system isn't much different form others, but it does at least allow the player to expend XP as they want so they can keep their concept from being ruined by too many upgrades. After a while you can no longer play the inexperienced kid when you are not actually inexperienced (game mechanics wise).

Also the guy making the vet has to play feeble to be in the party with the kid. Well I forgot how to be me but give me 10 sessions or so and I'll be back up to speed.

My thought is that if you like to have your concept and the story be louder in the mix, you sometimes have to fight the system to get that to happen and I'm interested in ways of making the system more pliant to players and GMs who like the concept over the mechanical model.

1 hour ago, Aluminium Falcon said:

We did something similar with an NPC that ascended to PC, he was a Jedi of mild strength that barely survived Order 66 by digging into his more negative impulses. He spent the next several years alternately grateful to be alive and ashamed of how he achieved it. His connection to the Force just... slipped away* and he was accepting of that. As a PC he worked well as a starting level Bounty Hunter/Survivalist/Force Sensitive Exile on the road to reforging his connection. He can go on about the blessings the Force used to bestow on him and the feats it allowed him to achieve and he is working to be worthy of them again.

* Our group prefers to utilize the Force as a spiritual allegory first and a source of super powers second, when we use it at all

I think that is a great solution and it's very clever. Given a lack of a way to actually have the guy at full strength I think your solution is excellent.

3 hours ago, Darzil said:

Yeah, it's a good system, lets people start with a character they are happy with without having to build ineffectively. And totally supported by Oggdude as it doesn't care about pre/post creation, it just has a limit.

I do like that the system is built to start with effective characters, but more than once I have had players ask if they could make a kid and work their way up to the starting XP and build specs. They asked me that because they were more interested in their concept than the way the system wanted them to start, and I don't see that as a bad thing really.

18 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Just to have a discussion

I originally attacked this problem by putting a 400 XP soft cap on characters, gave each player 400 xp to disburse to themselves as they wish, and called it good. The problem of course is that every player who is power gaming oriented will slap 400 XP on their character and not look back. So I tried to make a life path version but I got bogged down and didn't finish it because it seemed like it was a punishment for going higher in XP versus starting at normal 100/110 XP.

In another thread there was a discussion about awarding XP at the end of sessions and it seems like people really feel bad about not getting XP after a session, so maybe just not getting XP awarded was enough compensation for drawing XP early in your career.

18 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, there is a system that allows just that. R.Talsorian's FUZION system, the system used for their upcoming Cyberpunk Red , Mekton Zero , and TFOS , among others, is the successor to their older Interlock system, used for Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekton Z . It actually allows you to build really advanced characters as well as relatively lower skilled characters. This is possible by taking complications that make your life harder, and potentially more dangerous, but which, in turn grant additional character points. It's life path system can also result in potentially granting extra character points.

One other system that lets you fully develop the Grizzled Old Veteran character at startup is Traveler. You can decide how many years the character has under their belt before mustering out of whatever career course you selected. Of course, this is one of the few system that allows a character to actually die in the character creation phase s, there is that.

10 minutes ago, Varlie said:

One other system that lets you fully develop the Grizzled Old Veteran character at startup is Traveler. You can decide how many years the character has under their belt before mustering out of whatever career course you selected. Of course, this is one of the few system that allows a character to actually die in the character creation phase s, there is that.

Ah so true! I didn't even think of that but you are right.

So I just want to mention that if someone does want to bank EXP for a long time... discuss that with your party, for all that is good in the world. I've got a horror story to tell about a former slave Twi'lek girl, the player of whom refused to spend EXP on anything remotely useful because "she has no reason to have learned that" and similar bull excuses while constantly being in dangerous adventure situations that would easily serve as justification to anyone who wants it. So we were dragging a useless lump of a character along, got progressively more annoyed, till we found out the player was refusing to spend EXP and **** near strangled the guy, if we could've found out how to do so through a computer screen (Darn those online-only groups).

I've never seen anything like the "mechanics focus" Archlyte sees as a problem with the system actually show up in gameplay, either. Progression is a natural part of tabletop, and there's a good reason systems based on hard levels are becoming less and less pronounced: They're not as fun. As for concepts not working: Simply put, you're not meant to be a grizzled old super-experienced veteran at the start unless you also say you're rusty and getting back into shape only during the campaign (which is what my Clone Elite/ARC Trooper is doing in an AoR game and it doesn't hurt immersion in the slightest). Which is not only how most RPGs do things, but also how the Star Wars movies roughly go (Ben Kenobi was obviously a NPC, and Luke really wasn't much different in competence compared to Han, Chewie and Leia).

17 minutes ago, Silim said:

So I just want to mention that if someone does want to bank EXP for a long time... discuss that with your party, for all that is good in the world. I've got a horror story to tell about a former slave Twi'lek girl, the player of whom refused to spend EXP on anything remotely useful because "she has no reason to have learned that" and similar bull excuses while constantly being in dangerous adventure situations that would easily serve as justification to anyone who wants it. So we were dragging a useless lump of a character along, got progressively more annoyed, till we found out the player was refusing to spend EXP and **** near strangled the guy, if we could've found out how to do so through a computer screen (Darn those online-only groups).

I've never seen anything like the "mechanics focus" Archlyte sees as a problem with the system actually show up in gameplay, either. Progression is a natural part of tabletop, and there's a good reason systems based on hard levels are becoming less and less pronounced: They're not as fun. As for concepts not working: Simply put, you're not meant to be a grizzled old super-experienced veteran at the start unless you also say you're rusty and getting back into shape only during the campaign (which is what my Clone Elite/ARC Trooper is doing in an AoR game and it doesn't hurt immersion in the slightest). Which is not only how most RPGs do things, but also how the Star Wars movies roughly go (Ben Kenobi was obviously a NPC, and Luke really wasn't much different in competence compared to Han, Chewie and Leia).

Yeah I am just presenting an alternative and my language is meant to separate the ideas not to denigrate. There is no reason to promote the System Mechanical Model and normal culture of play in this thread because it is what everyone already does and loves.

The bolded text is something I would question though as I think this could be fine and makes more sense to me than a guy who is 90% ineffective. Yes skills are frangible and they degrade when not used, but there is nothing built in the system to account for that (though I think it would be a good idea) so that the Astrogation you don't use until session 18 is at the same strength it was at CHARGEN.

But what I am really concerned about is that Twi'lek player, because I don't know the situation but maybe the player didn't want to be combat effective because they envisioned the character concept as being a dancer. There was no arc there that the player found satisfying enough to allow it to change the character, so the player protected the character concept by not spending XP. This was obviously a clash of playstyles because you and the rest of the group were playing the trees and XP totals, and that player wanted to put the concept first.