The Psychic Disruption effect of the Untouchable from the Radical's Handbook provides this benefit:

Psychic Disruption: All Psychic Powers and abilities manifested in the character’s immediate area (a radius equal to the Untouchable’s Willpower Bonus in metres) have their Threshold increased by 10, plus any associated Test by the psyker (such as Willpower Tests) have their Diffculty increased by –20. Additionally, entities subject to Warp Instability will suffer double Damage from its effects while in this area.

Does this mean that a Psyker within close proximity to two Untouchables would have the Threshold of Psychic Powers increased by 20 and all associatted Tests by the psyker would have the difficulty increased by -40 (subject to the maximum penalty of -60 with three or more Untouchables nearby)? Likewise, would the adjustment to Warp Instability go up to triple Damage (using additive stacking of multipliers) with two Untouchables?

Personally i'd say just the highest powered untouchable would affect the characters.

UT's are increadably rare, more so than psykers

Using the rules from Radical's Handbook, there's no distinction between which Untouchable is 'most powerful' - all Untouchables generate the same level of effect, Willpower merely determining the limits of the zone that a given Untouchable can cover. However, it isn't clear if multiple overlapping zones can create even greater disruption.

My own feelings are that it would be good to allow the zones to stack since that's about the only way to prevent a powerful (Psy 4+) Psyker from using powers despite the +10 Threshold. As for Untouchables being rare, sure they are - but at least one Inquisitor (Eisenhorn) had collected a large number of them into his service, so it's quite reasonable to believe that another Inquisitor could attempt the same.

Ancient fluff-wise, they would stack (Untouchables/Pariahs were originally kept on Mars, but so many were gathered in one place that it actually affected the Astronomicon. Despite the massive slayings that alledgedly occured some were saved, et voila, Culexus Assassin shrines in the outer reaches of the Imperium). However, you would have the minor problem of bringing together so many Untouchables to cause such an effect yourself. Remember that psykers are (fairly) rare, and anti-psykers are like hen's teeth.

Unless you're called 'Gregor' anyway.

stormyfs said:

One thing to keep in mind here is that Inquisitor Eisenhorn spent a considerable amount of his personal influence over the course of many long years to collect his "untouchables". Most Inquisitors would consider this to be a collosal waste of time and assets, but then Eisenhorn had a rather epic grudge to bear with the daemon Cherubael and was determined to pile on with every advantage he could lay hands on. This was complicated by the fact that he was Ordo Hereticus and did not exactly get along well with the Scarus Conclave's Ordo Malleus contingent: Most of the powerful Malleus suspected him of Heresy!

As for the rules question: In most cases multiple Untouchables in the same area would not really "stack" except for determining the psy-blocked area. The one special case I could see is one of the new Primaris Psyker special abilities that allows them to try to offset "psychic distractions and disruptions" it might be important to note multiple Untouchables for some reason. You might likewise make a ruling that if for example two Untouchables were grappling a psyker for some reason that the penalties WOULD stack... Plus a healthy dose of extra penalties for the whole "manifesting while dogpiled" thing. (Each Untouchable having "slightly different harmonics to their lack of soul" or somesuch pseudo-science explanation.)

Well, mechanically I think they wouldn't need to stack, because to have more than one untouchable in the same place would be aplot device. If they are being used against the PC's you are completely free to say "no psi here, don't even try", and if the PC's are all untouchables... then why are you even trying to put a psy character in their way? normal people with normal weapons work very good for that...

A concentration of untouchables woould be a plot device, and psy characters would run in the other direction at the first clue of untouchables: they give them PAIN in capital letters.

One question I have about untouchables, though... How they relate to Necrons? After all, both have no relation to the Warp (and the Codex Necrons I take a glance some time ago stated that the necrons were quite decided to cut the material world from the inmaterium). We decided in our campaign that necrons would ignore untouchables (unless attacked by them, of course), but nothing else. Maybe an untouchable Tech-Priest with enough Forbidden Lore (xenos) might be able to use some necron tech, but it's just a random thought whe had because we have no untouchables in the group.

If they are being used against the PC's you are completely free to say "no psi here, don't even try" and if the PC's are all untouchables... then why are you even trying to put a psy character in their way?

Perhaps because the two PC Untouchables (not all of the PCs) were selected specifically to aid in hunting down psykers? As it stands, a +10 Threshold doesn't really block out their powers at high-end (pre-Ascension) DH levels, and it's laughable for Ascended psykers. OTOH, if a PC were to the level of a Psy 5+, a more suitable solution (IMO) would be to allow stacking rather than just a fiat nerfing.

Mmm... That is an interesting idea, and I see a lot of possibilities. For example, you don't really need to "drown" the psycker so he cannot use his powers: the untouchable's mere presence will give him warning. However, a Vindicare assassin who is also an Untouchable (or Vindicare-like built assassins, that means snipers) has a huge advantage: he can't be "predicted" (there is no way for a psycker to get a warning thanks to its powers), and a bullet is quite effective inside a brain. Also, take into account that a psyckers weapon is his powers, and they cannot be used (directly) against an untouchable. No roll, no modifier, they cannot target the untouchables. Period (and that, in my book, includes daemonic powers. Like unnatural strenght....).

As for the two psyckers not having a good enough effect (and being irrelevant against Ascension psy), your options are stacking, of course. Try simulating by yourself (I can't really help with the game mechanics about psy, I specifically stated to my group I wouldn't be playing a mage/psy char this time, because I'm bored of having to lookso much data) how it works, but my advise would be the following:

First, they don't stack. If they want to, have them to pay XP (about 100 seems right), this is a "talent" or a "skill" which can be described as being able to work together and reinforce their anti-psy capacities... and since it requires concentration, they can't get it up more than their willpower bonuses added (so a 48 and 37 WP untouchables would be able to keep the fields stacked for a max of 7 turns of combat per scene, or even per day if you want to make psy hunting more "elite", and there is not so much heretic psy to justify being able to use that power more than once per day).

Second, let them improve their field of psy supression, again for a limited amount of time (twice their WP bonus at most, and that only after buying a 250 XP talent). Make it the same as Psy Rating, only they are buying a counter-psy skill instead, so a 500 XP per additional -10 may be fair (I think it would be imbalanced, but...).

Also, I hope there are no PC psykers in the group, because by doing this you are telling them to make another character, since they won't be able to use any power at all.

ZillaPrime said:

he was guilty of heresy and still is, he summons daemons and cohorts with them and if the rumours are true Abnett is bringing him back for one last go with Ravenor because Elizabeth is waking up

After a day with the concept roaming around my head... I think the rules are good as they are written in the book. The point in the Untouchables is not an "anti-magic field", it's they are completely inmunne to psy.

So why did Eisenhorn group a lot of untouchables? Well, first he doesn't use them as counter-psyckers, but he sends them directly against the enemy. A great Daemon of Tzeentch in melee with an Untouchable is... quite ******.

I think, if you really really want to make untouchables as "psyckers-chainers", look in the thread about the Culexus Assassins better than using my previous suggestions.

from france

untouchable are not the ultimate weapon see zael in raveno. he burn frauka hability to be a anathema to spyker. so in some rare cases of prolonged contact with a psycker a untouchable can be in danger.

and for the relatiobn between untouchable and necrons someone in a another post (search with necrons" they are related. as one of the ch t'an is probably the omnissiah or linked to it.

sorry for the short answer it s late here.

Also, I hope there are no PC psykers in the group, because by doing this you are telling them to make another character, since they won't be able to use any power at all.

The psyker will be limited when within a few meters of the Untouchables and totally blocked if/when attempting to use a power directly on the Untouchables, but this hardly prevents them from using their powers at all. Once again consider that both Ravenor and Eisenhorn utilized Untouchables and they were both making good use of their psychic abilities.

The rules aren't all. A psyker will feel VERY ill near an untouchable, sure this won't apply any additional modifiers (aside from allowing the psyker to run away from the untouchable even if he can't see him), but should be roleplayed. Also, a group fully composed of untouchables is more stable than a group with ine or two of them, mostly because untouchables don't disrupt each other (I mean, even normal people feel distress near untouchables, therefore that -10 to fellowship) and can comprehend how their life has been.

The fun of the Eisenhorn novel is, Gregor loves his untouchable... but he is a psycker. Touching her is painfull .

By the way, I think I remember the first battle reports with assassins in the miniatures game... I think the distress to the psyckers comes from the fact that, back then, the Culexus was like a phantom (the miniature was on the table, moving normally, but couldn't be affected by anything until he attacked) and you could see even a Hive Tyrant fleeing like a cheerleader in a B-series psycho movie ^^ (since the Culexus nearly guaranteed to kill one psycker before dying).

HappyDaze said:

Incorrect. that while the rules only include "Standard" level Untouchables there exist ones both less powerful and "savagely more powerful" and like psykers a Blank's powers can be mentally trained and increased, though this is not covered in the rules.

Can't qoute multible times

Argus Van Het said: "One question I have about untouchables, though... How they relate to Necrons? After all, both have no relation to the Warp (and the Codex Necrons I take a glance some time ago stated that the necrons were quite decided to cut the material world from the inmaterium). We decided in our campaign that necrons would ignore untouchables (unless attacked by them, of course), but nothing else. Maybe an untouchable Tech-Priest with enough Forbidden Lore (xenos) might be able to use some necron tech, but it's just a random thought whe had because we have no untouchables in the group"

Originally the C'tans (the Necron gods) planted the "Pariah Gene" in the human population and now the Necron harvest humans with the Pariah Gene also known as Untouchables or Blanks and turn them into Pariahs the new breed of anti psychic necrons.

about stagging in fluff the abilities do stag and exponetially, in the table top game it is not that radical but the Culexus Assassins have the ability Psychic abomination (all psaykers within 6" must test willpower or flee) for every additional Culexus beyonf the first that range extend by andditional 6" from evefry assassin - maning that 3 Cullexus assassins would each have a range of 18" and so on.

Personally I would multiply the range and effect (maxium -60 but no max range or threshold increase) from each assassin whenever they are withing a certain range from each other. so if their are two assassin they would each have their range and effect multiplied, if their were three they would have the effect and range multiplied again (WBxWBxWB).

If we say there are 3 Untouchables each with a WB of 3 just to keep it simple that would be 3x3x3 = 27m from each

If there were 5 with a WB of 3 it would be 3 x 3 x 3 x 3 x 3 = 243m from each

I think that while deadly makes sense since in fluff the planet where the Culexus temple is located on is completely cut off from the warp, a Psychic Dead Zone as I think the Farseer called it.

Not only that, attacking that Culexus Temple that Farseer had been planning to for centuries leaded inevitabily to the destruction of that craftworld... which made the farseer to cry a little and leave those plans aside ^^. But I think the point in that planet being "out of the warp" was something the Deceiver (which I think has 90% of possibilities to be the one messing with humans in any given concrete situation, like the C'than blades the Callidus uses, or the Pariah gene) had made, not really because of the presence of the culexus.

By the way, I didn't knew you could deploy more then one assassin, but of course I didn't look at it since they first appeared so many years ago in the White Dwarf ^^.

Incorrect. that while the rules only include "Standard" level Untouchables there exist ones both less powerful and "savagely more powerful" and like psykers a Blank's powers can be mentally trained and increased, though this is not covered in the rules.

You'll note that I said "by the rules" so I'm hardly incorrect in what I said. My question and hypothetical situation of having multiple Untouchables is based solely upon the mechanics of the Untouchable rules in RH, rather than to alluded to but not yet covered variants of Untouchables. I was hoping that such variants would be found in Ascension, but that doesn't appear to have happened.

HappyDaze said:

My apologies. About the stronger types of Untouchables "Such nightmarish individuals will be covered in a future release".

Seeing as how Psykers have been built up to be like super heroes/ or villians... I say that the untouchable fields over lap and stack...it makes perfect sense and the only reasons that Psyker players would complain about it is b/c it makes things much harder from them........and to that I have to say....Welcome to the Grim Dark future