Store champ on Sunday, looking for comments/advice on this fleet. I've tested it a bit and it seems strong. It's actually the first tournament fleet I feel confident about, which is scaring me, because I'm usually convinced I'm going to get trounced.

General plan is to deploy in relatively close proximity, MC75s flanking the flotillas and do some kind of pincer manoeuvre. The MC75s are flown rather aggressively, Bail on Turn 3. GR-75s are there to help against squadrons if possible. Shara and Friends are there to be their usual annoyances. With Bail, I'm happy to go second so I don't really have a bid.

Things I'm hesitant to change for no good reason:
- I'm trying to win with all commanders and have yet to try/win with Garm. I know there is an argument for Dodonna. Feel free to convince me.
- Exodus Fleet. It fills my heart with joy and I feel a puppy is saved every time I use it.

What I've tried/changed:
- This started as an attempt to make Tractor Beams work, but then I switched to Hardened Bulkheads since a) Tractor Beams didn't do much for this fleet and b) I kept getting rammed into oblivion/out of position.
- Also tried Slicer Tools instead of Repair Crews on one of the flotillas, but it makes the navigation more complicated and sometimes sends a GR75 way out of position, so I reverted back to double Repair Crews.

Actual questions I have and can't seem to answer by myself:
- Shoud I drop Bright Hope/Ahsoka (or something else) and switch to ACM?
- Red objective. The safe choice is Targeting Beacons, but it's boring. I tried Opening Salvo, but I feel I might be shooting myself in the foot since I only have 2 ships that can use it and might run into long-range Imperials with a less-than-ideal token suite on the MC75. At the moment I'm leaning towards Station Assault, but I've never played it (or against it). It seems like a good fit since I ideally want everything in one spot and deploying both stations next to each other does that. However I don't know how it would fare against Double Cymoon for instance, that can potentially GT both stations from long range. Other options are run-of-the-mill Most Wanted or Advanced Gunnery, since I don't think anyone wants to eat a Bail MC75 double front arc on turn 3.
- In a Meta that skews towards large ships, I'm not sure the 10 points in Hardened Bulkheads is the best investment. However, I did have a couple of test games where a small roadblock gave me problems, so I'm wary of that. It's not like this slot can be used for anything else anyway.
- Is there a hard counter to this that I should prepare for?

Thanks for your input!

Name: McDoubleDouble
Faction: Rebel
Commander: Garm Bel Iblis

Assault: Station Assault
Defense: Planetary Ion Cannon
Navigation: Solar Corona

MC75 Ordnance Cruiser (100)
• Garm Bel Iblis (25)
• Lando Carissian (4)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Hardend Bulkheads (5)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• External Racks (3)
• Mon Calamari Exodus Fleet (5)
= 158 Points

MC75 Ordnance Cruiser (100)
• Bail Organa (7)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Hardend Bulkheads (5)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• External Racks (3)
• Mon Calamari Exodus Fleet (5)
= 136 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Ahsoka Tano (2)
• Repair Crews (4)
• Bright Hope (2)
= 24 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Hondo Ohnaka (2)
• Repair Crews (4)
= 24 Points

Squadrons:
• Shara Bey (17)
• Tycho Celchu (16)
• 2 x A-wing Squadron (22)
= 55 Points

Total Points: 399

I'll give a shot at answering your questions. These are in the context of keeping your fleet as close to your original idea as possible.

13 hours ago, CptAwesomer said:

- Should I drop Bright Hope/Ahsoka (or something else) and switch to ACM?

You're playing the token game, and Ahsoka will help Garm be more flexible. Hondo gives you more tokens, but also gives them to your opponent. With Garm already feeding tokens in, Hondo may be overdoing it. With how few shots you can actually deliver through the game, I think ACM will serve you better than APT in a large ship meta. I'd drop Bright Hope and Hondo, but Bright Hope and Ahsoka would be fine too.

13 hours ago, CptAwesomer said:

- Red objective. The safe choice is Targeting Beacons, but it's boring. I tried Opening Salvo, but I feel I might be shooting myself in the foot since I only have 2 ships that can use it and might run into long-range Imperials with a less-than-ideal token suite on the MC75. At the moment I'm leaning towards Station Assault, but I've never played it (or against it). It seems like a good fit since I ideally want everything in one spot and deploying both stations next to each other does that. However I don't know how it would fare against Double Cymoon for instance, that can potentially GT both stations from long range. Other options are run-of-the-mill Most Wanted or Advanced Gunnery, since I don't think anyone wants to eat a Bail MC75 double front arc on turn 3.

It's boring, yes, but I'd go with Most Wanted or Advanced Gunnery. Targeting Beacons will be taken every time, because it gives you really very little. You're right that Opening Salvo works against you with two larges. If you're in an Imperial large-ship meta, you're likely to match up against GT, so Advanced Gunnery won't give much to them. Most Wanted is the most 'reliable' objective though.

13 hours ago, CptAwesomer said:

- In a Meta that skews towards large ships, I'm not sure the 10 points in Hardened Bulkheads is the best investment. However, I did have a couple of test games where a small roadblock gave me problems, so I'm wary of that. It's not like this slot can be used for anything else anyway.

I'd throw these out. You have a lot of resources spent to remove and repair damage. If you're running with Repair Crews, they'll take care of any ram damage (barring it being your last hull). That said... see below for my other thoughts.

13 hours ago, CptAwesomer said:

- Is there a hard counter to this that I should prepare for?

Pretty much any squad heavy will eat through your squads and start working on ships. Flak will be huge against these fleets. MSU's may also give you trouble. You have 24 shots max against ships. Realistically, you're not shooting round 1 and maybe not round 2. Which leaves you with 16-20 shots. You'll be relying on tokens for red dice modification, so until you get in close, you may have a hard time putting reliable damage on anything at long range, and with so few shots, MSU's may be able to dance around damage.

Personal Approach:

These are some thoughts that change some of the core concepts of your fleet a little more. By all means, feel free to ignore these.

I think that you are spending a lot of points on repairing damage. Between Repair Crews and MCEF, you've got 18 points that won't get used until the damage is done, and they still require at least a token to trigger. I like MCEF better here, just because you'll easily get a token for it, and it is easier to use than Repair Crews. As mentioned before, your Hardened Bulkheads are doing a good chunk of the job that the Repair Crews would be good for, cleaning up after rams. That said, I'd throw out both. I really think Slicers would be better on one if not both GRs. You said you tried them, but that is the best solution to your main problem fleet: squad heavy. That also said, if you're running Slicers, I wouldn't keep them in formation. Toss Quantum Storm on one, and let them run wild. Their main and only job is to hamstring the carrier. You could even mix and match, keeping one RC on a GR with Ahsoka and make the other a Slicer platform to run wild.

For your Yellow, I think Contested Outpost would work just as well, for the same reasoning you put forward on Station Assault. You get to control where the battle happens. On top of that, if you're running MCEF and RC, you're better fit to deal with the lack of station repairs.

As a side note, I would have a hankering to try this as a Sato fleet. Granted, you'd have few shots overall to use his ability, but you'd have two incredible platforms for large black dice attacks. I'd use a different squad layout. I don't know that it would be incredibly competitive, but it'd be fun to throw all those black dice.

2 hours ago, Astrodar said:

Pretty much any squad heavy will eat through your squads and start working on ships. Flak will be huge against these fleets.

It's definitely a concern, though I find MCEF is a good stopgap while I pop the carriers. I'm not overly concerned by mass squadrons as the meta is fairly squad light, though your point is well taken. In any case, I would likely throw in both flotillas as anti-squadrons. I may also be overly confident in Shara & friends as I've been running them almost exclusively for a while.

3 hours ago, Astrodar said:

 really think Slicers would be better on one if not both GRs. You said you tried them, but that is the best solution to your main problem fleet: squad heavy

You make a convincing argument about investing too much in repairing damage. Definitely gives me some perspective on the fleet. I'd likely go with Slicer, RC, drop Hondo and keep Ahsoka.

You also make good points about Hardened Bulkheads. Dropping them allows me to go with ACM and have 6 leftover points. With one Repair Crew flotilla, it's enough to negate the ram damage anyway and I won't be running 10 points of upgrade that will be useless most of the time.

Thanks for the great reply. Really happy with the detailed answer and the analysis as well as the challenge of some of my choices. Going to do some more thinking, testing and tinkering :)

Not going to argue for Dodonna, but have you considered Raddus over Garm? I used a fleet very similar to this one for 5 or 6 games undefeated. The method is cruder, though: drive one MC75 into something's face, drop the other to completely trap them and rapidly ACM whatever you've caught to death. It's an effective way of denying prolonged ranged or bomber damage and keeping both 75s relevant against even nimble foes.

Can you tell me how you intend to win games with this list?

You can do repairs all day, but the fact is that its VERY hard to build a tanky list that can avoid 1 and 1 ship being focused down.

But repairs aside, how do you reach out and hurt your opponent? Apart from SA, you don't score points off your objectives, so you have to kill stuff to win.

Your squads are very weak, a little speed bump only, and the range on the cruisers is mediocre at best.

Raddus would help with this, surely, but I still don't think it'll be a great list.

5 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Can you tell me how you intend to win games with this list?

The opponent still has to run away from 2 MC75 front arcs, that are coming from opposite directions. It's certainly possible, but I'd bet I'll be able to catch something. I'm not overly worrief about catching things. Maybe I should!

5 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Your squads are very weak, a little speed bump only, and the range on the cruisers is mediocre at best.

You're right about the speed bump, but I think it's a pretty good speed bump. I'm open to hearing more about why you think it's insufficient. I don't expect them to survive, just delay enough that ships start to pop. I also find that people loathe Counter. They will sometimes simply not attack Shara or Tycho and leave them to do their thing with impunity.

It's not a guarantee by any means and you may think it's a bad plan.

As for range on the cruiser, I'll send them speed 3 in your face. I can start hitting on turn 2 and really start unleashing on turn 3.

As for Raddus, I'll consider it. I have other plans with Raddus, but it would be an interedting change.

I don't think I would rely on MCEF with the MC75. Reason why being the fact that one brace and one redirect are still fairly easy to negate/overheat and even with boosted repairs the damage you are going to take is going to outpace your ability to add shields. Especially with your middling activation count, a last first denying you the ability to repair at all is going to be especially deadly.

Raddus solves this problem as one 75 is going to be hidden until combat range, and when one is coming under fire, the second can drop in a "deal with me now or die" position and hopefully force them into hard decisions to finish the destruction of 75 #1 and take heavy losses (hopefully the table) or switch targets and hopefully not kill either so you can win on MOV.

If you want to run a more tank list, I would say perhaps moving a coms net gr75 and 2x ackbar MCEF assault frigates with ECM + Reinforced blast doors or Early Warning System. This lets you shoot deadly shots, while also repairing and having the defenses (double redirect + ECM is a huge improvement over 1 ea even though it seems small) to actually tank those shots.

1 hour ago, BrobaFett said:

Especially with your middling activation count, a last first denying you the ability to repair at all is going to be especially deadly.

This was really eye opening. I actually closely avoided such a situation against a Demolisher where I rolled perfectly with a CF 'd 75 side arc. If I had not, I probably would have been dead. I just didn't really realized this exposed a last-first problem waiting to happen.

I never really thought about using Raddus with this, as I have built other fleets for him. However, reading your arguments, I do agree it is probably a better fleet with him than Garm.

Definitely some more food for thought. My initial plans with Raddus involed 2x MC30s, a GR-75 and dropping Profundity and Garel's Honor. The advantages I see with Double 75 is a) some squadron presence b) I can use Bail to be extra-evil.

I like both points a and b, and think you are moving in a really solid direction.

@Darth Veggie (I'm pretty sure) plays a mean double mc75 raddus and might give better tips than I.

My raddus experience is limited to cr90, gr75, mc75, and 131pts in yt2400s, which plays much differently.

13 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

[...]

@Darth Veggie (I'm pretty sure) plays a mean double mc75 raddus and might give better tips than I.

[...]

First, I would advise not to use Bail. Bail tends to backfire, if not used with an ET liberty. The reason is that after the Bail activation, your opponent has all his activations plus one more activation against your big ship to kill your large Bail ship.

My double MC75 list was the following:

Profound Aspirations (392/400)

MC75 Ordnance Cruiser (100 + 59)
+ Admiral Raddus (26)
+ Major Derlin (7)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Electronic Countermeasures (7)
+ External Racks (3)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
+ Profundity (7)
MC75 Ordnance Cruiser (100 + 26)
+ Lando Calrissian (4)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Electronic Countermeasures (7)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
+ External Racks (3)
+ Aspiration (3)
CR90 Corvette A (44 + 9)
+ Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (7)
+ Jaina's Light (2)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 3)
+ Hondo Ohnaka (2)
+ Quantum Storm (1)
Shara Bey (17)
Tycho Celchu (16)

Dangerous Territory
Most Wanted
Contested Outpost

The idea is easily explained: Get insane Raddus-Drop range thanks to the Profundity drop. You can literally drop the Raddussed Aspiration across half the map because of the Profundity drop (which also moves Raddus and Derlin to the trc90 - yes, I think I am the only person who has ever used this ability of the profundity title). Next you activate the trc90 and fly it to safety circling the opponent and further harrassing him with trc. Finally he gets battered between the fire of Aspiration and Profundity. BTW Aspiration is a perfect title for a Raddussed ship, since you can move your shields more than ideally completelly compensating the lack of a second redirect.

However, I have given up on the idea of playing this list competitively. It has two major drawbacks:

1. Profundity dies nearly all the time. It will get serious damage before the drop. Resulting in constantly dying somewhere after the drop. Allthough this is mitigated by the movement of Raddus and Derlin, it means, even that it is close to impossible to win big.

2. It is not very flexible and plays quite the same all the time. Sometimes you would love to have Profundity as the ship dropped, not Aspiration. But that is not possible, because Raddus is on it. A later version of this fleet I have played with HIECR90b as Profundity drop and ACM instead of APT, but it was even less flexible, hence if I play dual MC75 I go back to the fleet above.

After @rasproteus destroyed the HIE+ACM fleet once even before the drops I gave up on the list and evolved it to my current Raddus fleet (the one I play in the VASSAL tournament). But that is no dual MC75 fleet anymore.

I have no recollection of that, @Darth Veggie - but I'll gladly add it to my achievements page.

I also experimented with the double MC75 Raddus around regionals time last year - with similar results. If your opponent obliges you and plays your game, you can do reasonably well.

MC75's do great against a single enemy ship - with ECM and their defense token suite (not to mention 9 hull), they can really stand and deliver. But they fold pretty quickly under fire from multiple sources, whether from other ships or squadrons. Largely speaking, they need to either drop into very favorable positions or hit hard and get out of Dodge. That means whatever else you're bringing is on mop-up duty. MC75's do not excel in that role very well in general due to their short range.

That is why, in my mind, the Raddus Rogues did so well initially. It's still a very strong archetype, although the meta has somewhat moved on. Hit hard once (or twice if you're first player) and leave before they can respond. Then let the 7-8 YT2400's do cleanup - and speed-4 rogues excel at finishing off a low-hull opponent. Or even one who has merely had their shields stripped.

8 hours ago, Darth Veggie said:

The idea is easily explained: Get insane Raddus-Drop range thanks to the Profundity drop.

Is the drop range something you often need? I find I don't necessarily need range so much as flexibility (deploying around obstacles and such). We might just be using different words to mean the same thing.

4 hours ago, rasproteus said:

That means whatever else you're bringing is on mop-up duty. MC75's do not excel in that role very well in general due to their short range.

This is more or less my current Raddus iteration (that did not have the Garm fleet in the original post as a starter). I'm not entirely convinced. It packs an awesome punch but is pretty glass-cannon-y

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63)
• Admiral Raddus (26)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Advanced Projectors (6)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Admonition (8)
= 112 Points

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Advanced Projectors (6)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
= 78 Points

MC75 Ordnance Cruiser (100)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• External Racks (3)
• Profundity (7)
= 126 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• Hondo Ohnaka (2)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• External Racks (3)
• Garel's Honor (4)
= 49 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Bright Hope (2)
= 20 Points

Squadrons:
= 0 Points

Total Points: 385

23 hours ago, rasproteus said:

I have no recollection of that, @Darth Veggie - but I'll gladly add it to my achievements page.

[...]

I believe, it was you. It was a Vader fleet with a Cymoon, demo, at least one Arq and at least one Gozanti. No squads iirc. That was you, right?

19 hours ago, CptAwesomer said:

Is the drop range something you often need? I find I don't necessarily need range so much as flexibility (deploying around obstacles and such). We might just be using different words to mean the same thing.

[...]

Because profundity gets a lot of beating it really helps if you can start with the drop from a very far distance.

Have you tested your Raddus fleet against massive squad lists? I recognized that I really need either squads myself or my slicer tool flotillas (I have even two of them in my current list) to be able to stand against a heavy squad fleet.

24 minutes ago, Darth Veggie said:

Have you tested your Raddus fleet against massive squad lists? I recognized that I really need either squads myself or my slicer tool flotillas (I have even two of them in my current list) to be able to stand against a heavy squad fleet.

I tested it against an unproven Scurrg list and it did fine, but it was a single test and I wouldn't say I feel any confidence whatsoever against heavy squadrons.

I never tested double Slicer Tools. Don't you find the 2nd one is sometimes wasted against low-activation fleets?

I've been spending too much time in fleet builders trying different things, I need to get to testing!

1 hour ago, Darth Veggie said:

I believe, it was you. It was a Vader fleet with a Cymoon, demo, at least one Arq and at least one Gozanti. No squads iirc. That was you, right?

I mean, it certainly sounds like me. I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday most of the time, though.