See title. Help pls?

Chain, Lathe, Mono, Force, Shocking, Power, how many of these qualities are compatible?

That's not very specific. I mean, you can drop things like Chain just by looking at a picture.

In all seriousness, I'd think a best-quality pentagrammically-warded Force sword or axe would be a good start to build upon. You're talking about the Nemesis Force Weapons of the Grey Knights, correct? Because those are really big halberds I'd buff up the damage as well but maybe add unwieldy.

Personally, I treat them as Best-Quality Force Great Weapons (Mono-Great Weapons with the Force Weapon rules applied) which have been blessed and inscribed with permanent Pentagrammic Wards. Assuming a standard Grey Knight Terminator is SB 11 in his Tactical Dreadnought Armour, and he has a Psy Rating of 3, then that results in a weapon that, as standard, deals 2d10+14 R damage with a Pen of 7...

'Back in the day' they used to get the option of sword or halberd, both of them having the gun built in to it, got some of the models from then some where..

As for qualities...

Better than Finest Quality, Lathe, Great Weapon, Pentagrammic Wards, Force, Psycanon, only usable by GK's.

That will stop players from using them there and then.

It's not a weapon a character could really ever come near to owning, each and every one is a most sacred and most holy relic of the Grey Knights.

The GK's would go to war just to get one of them back if they ever heard of a fellow brother falling to death (they cannot be corrupted at all) or being sucked in to the warp in some emperor forsaken daemonrealm. That and the amount of =][= that would go in to help would be phenominal, as would the amount of assets that would be diverted to getting the item back..

Velvetears said:

I imagine the size and weight would do that as well - they're not small weapons, being two-handed melee weapons designed specifically for Astartes wielders... they won't be feasible for a normal human to wield properly.

*nods*

Even i think when DW comes out, unless one of the secret bunch in there is some how the GK's...

Which is against lore as far as i know..

Until such time as we see a Grey Knights suplement for Deathwatch (not for the Deathwatch organization per se, but rather to round out the Chambers Militant within the Inquisition.) no player should ever need or lay their filthy paws on such a sacred relic. As for stats: It is a plot device really... It does what the GM requires of it in the hands of it's superhuman demonslaying Uberpaladin to drive the story along.... Namely doing HORRIBLE THINGS to horrible things!

If you feel compelled to stat one out anyways I would start with a "hulking" Lathe-great-Force weapon with Pentagrammic wards. Make sure to plaster it with Purity Seals and prayer scrolls. Per Grey Knight fluff the Pentagrammic warding uses ritually purified and blessed silver in it's inscription. Such warding is repeated in the Grey Knight's armour and is implanted in the Knight's own body for good measure. Many have died, but NEVER has a Grey Knight been corrupted!

If you are going for an "older model" Nemesis weapon then add a Bolter to the weapon mounted along the haft. The "newer model" Nemesis weapon lacks an integral firearm, but the Knight carries a forearm-mounted Storm Bolter on his armour. Traditional forms are Halberds or the somewhat more rare Greatsword.

I'd say it's a Great Force Weapon (Hammer, Sword, and Halberd are all options in recent stories and codex), Best Quality, Mono (I don't think they ship the things from the Lathes to Titan, I don't think the Lathes are actually important enough to merit the honor of kitting out the GK's sad to say), Sanctified. Damage type would change depending on the nature of the weapon (Rending for sword/halberd, impact for the hammer), and the usual stat adjustments and benefits/penalties from using their original style (so axe gets what, unwieldy for extra damage, sword would get balanced) to represent the extreme quality above best or the nature of the forge their built in (instead of just lathed). The True benefit of a Nemesis weapon is only achieved when wielded by a sufficiently powerful GK (again, this is pretty much from the Daemonhunter's codex and reflects what we already know of force weapons), as every GK is a psyker, the more powerful the GK, the more powerful the sword. In Tabletop setting, this resulted in a +2 strength for even the lowest power armored GK, gaining powerfield with Justicars (squad vet sargs) and force weapon quality with Brother-Captains higher, all of that is generally covered with increased damage and pen due to the psy rating of the wielder. For older versions like the others said, they'd have a mounted stormbolter attached to them as well, but the newest incarnation of them simply uses a wrist mounted stormbolter and a special ability to wield both at the same time (effectively letting the GK dual wield great weapon & storm bolter like a normal person would wield sword and pistol, another benefit to it if you're a GK and not someone just picking one up). IF you want to quickstart a squad of GK's for a game, as soon as Deathwatch comes out, just have everyone make starting Librarians, kit their armor with hexagramic wards, make it best quality and give them the above statted weapon and have them take appropriate psyker powers (things like, Holocaust and By His Will, etc) along with immunity to warp possession. In the hands of a GK, the Nemesis Force Weapon is a devestating tool, wielded with the utmost skill. In the hands of a death cult assassin, it would be a very nice weapon still, but with none of the punch that a GK could wield it with, heck, even a Primaris Psyker, though he'd get the benefit of making the weapon hit very, very hard, will not carry the ability to kill with it like a GK would (as they can't wield wrist mounted stormbolters, nor will they have a space marine's enhanced strength).

As it is, I could see a party getting their hands on one of these very, very rare items, but never by shopping. More likely they may recover such an artifact on a long, arduous quest (something akin to a paladin seeking a Holy Avenger blade), assuming they are Malleus operatives, and even upon recovery of it, they'd almost certainly give it back to the rightful owners... because if I'm a Malleus Inqy, and a GK says hey, where'd you get one of our weapons and why um... why haven't you given it back? I don't know if there's any kind of right answer heh. In a way, I agree with one of the previous posters who said they'd go to war to get it back, but that being said, I'm fair sure that only the Officio Assassinorum, as far as Imperial Agencies, would actually give the GK's a "war", since they're regularly used to cleanse (and by cleanse, I mean slay every last one of) corrupted space marine chapters... the WHOLE chapter, dead... poof, gone (ref. Flame Falcons 21st founding cursed chapter).

In the title, I specifically mentioned "Power" because I vaguely recall from the DH codex there being multiple flavours of Nemesis Force Weapons.

I would take a best quality Power weapon as base, add a d10 to it's base damage for being for Astartes (Great sized) use, then add "Force Weapon" on top of it. In TT rules the Nemesis characteristic is represented as a +2 S bonus. This appears roughly equal to "Mono". Unfortunately, "Force" and "Power field" qualities are described explicitly as not stacking with "Mono". Given it's name " Nemesis " is probably better represented by inlaid Pentagrammatical Warding and "Sanctified Weapon" trait.

I'd throw in "Unwieldy" and "Unbalanced" for any users who aren't 7ft tall augmented murder machines.
Old skool GK Halberds would also get inbuilt "Astartes" sized Storm Bolters with Psycannon Bolts.

Other Questions:

RAW, is there a reason why Force and Power effects can't be combined?

RAW, is there a reason why a Chain-Axe can't have "Mono"? Lathe Mono Chain-Axe? Plus Shocking?

Do you discourage players from putting "Shocking" on ALL their melee weapons? It's awfully useful against low AP.

guest469 said:

Ehmmm... no, Mono's +2 to Penetration does not really equate in any way, shape, or form to +2 Strength on the tabletop.

Actually, the "Great Weapon" damage difference is probably the best representation of a higher strength weapon, especially with the Ork Codex's Big Choppa in mind. Since you've already added the +d10 damage, it's already pretty well represented.

Force Weapons are also already Mono.

Other Questions:

1. No, no rules against it, but no rules representing it, either.

2. Yes, the Mono upgrade can only be applied to weapons with the Primitive quality. Lathe cannot be used alongside Mono - it's one or the other. Shocking isn't a weapon upgrade, it's an entirely new weapon type built with shocking in mind - hope your Techpriest is talented (and your GM is willing).

3. You aren't referring to the ARMOR upgrade, are you?

guest469 said:

A power field, by definition, would very neatly encase the force blade and Psy energy inside the field it generates effectively containing and cutting it off from being released since the blade would never make contact with the target.

Chain weapons are not primitive and already have penetration.

As Unusualsuspect said, Shocking isn't an add-on and getting a mono weapon would be a lot cheaper.

Shocking can be an add-on for armor.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Is that the definition of a Power Field? I was under the impression that Power Fields only weakened the material that was later struck by, well, the weapon - not that they were unpenetrable and that the sword could be replaced by a rubber chicken and have the same effect...

Yup. In Eisenhorn at one point the titular Inquisitor has a Power Sword that is only field and when it's off it's just a hilt. Also, the Errata if I'm not mistaken illustrates that with an example about mono on power swords. You can give them that upgrade but it only comes into effect if the field is down. Otherwise the edge won't be doing any cutting.

Yup, the sword is just a device for projecting the power field, some ancient and venerable relics have no need for a long sword to project the field, and simply project from the hilt. I suspect when the devices were first being built there might have been some point where the physical blade did some of the cutting work, and as time went by no one stopped to question why the physical part of the power sword was still sword shaped and not a rod or rectangle.

guest469 said:

Having finally had a chance to see the rules on this. Lure of the Expanse shows that the Eldar Witchblade is actually a power weapon which allows an Eldar psyker to use his psychic powers to grant extra damage and pen.

Don't forgetthese things (well the older models) require Terminator Armor to swing, only fully accredated members of the Ordo Malus anf the Gray Knights are allowed to have them.

How do I know the paer about Inquisitors? I've got an "Inquisitor with Nemesis Force Weapon on Powerboard" minnie packed away among my stuff that is no longer an allowed Table Top option, along with my Flight Pack Marines & Terminators, Shriken Catapult Special Weapons and such.

guest469 said:

From the Daemonhunters codex, the only variations in the Nemesis weapons abilities came soley from the rank of the grey knight weilding it. All Grey knights had bonus strength, sergeants and terminators had bonus strength and power weapon and it was only the grand masters that got the force weapon effect for the chance to instant kill the opponent.

Also these weapons were grey knights only - not even malleus inquisitor lords could take them... which kinda supports the arguments that they are not weapons for PC's in DH. Of course i think that although there probably wont be Grey Knights in Deathwatch (its the chamber militant of the Ordo Xenos), there will eventually be a supplement with them (we already have the Hereticus' Adeptus Sororitas so its only natural they would want to complete the trio buy adding the Malleus' grey knights).

S.K