Where to go from Troll Slayer?

By wyrdhunter, in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay

Posted at

Silent Star said:

HedgeWizard said:

phobiandarkmoon said:

... I'm sorry, what? Allow Slayers to ATONE? Their families have already held them funerals! They are considered shamed and dead, and the only way to remove their shame is to die in glorious combat trying to kill something huge or keep a horde at bay.

If the dwarf committed a relatively minor offence that didn't offend honour quite so much, he shouldn't have become a slayer in the first place.

well, to be fair, little to none of that information is included in the RPG materials (e.g. their families have hosted funerals, there is no way to atone, they are considered shamed and dead, etc.) That is all content found in either novellas, WFB books, websites, whatever.

I take it that you have not read the WFRP dwarf sourcebook titled Dwarfs: Stone and Steel.

Basically it agrees with everything phobiandarkmoon just said.

It's funny how no one bats an eye when someone changes the rules, but when someone suggests something that goes against the setting, it's heresy.

Keep your canon out of my game!

Posted at

HedgeWizard said:

Silent Star said:

HedgeWizard said:

phobiandarkmoon said:

... I'm sorry, what? Allow Slayers to ATONE? Their families have already held them funerals! They are considered shamed and dead, and the only way to remove their shame is to die in glorious combat trying to kill something huge or keep a horde at bay.

If the dwarf committed a relatively minor offence that didn't offend honour quite so much, he shouldn't have become a slayer in the first place.

well, to be fair, little to none of that information is included in the RPG materials (e.g. their families have hosted funerals, there is no way to atone, they are considered shamed and dead, etc.) That is all content found in either novellas, WFB books, websites, whatever.

I take it that you have not read the WFRP dwarf sourcebook titled Dwarfs: Stone and Steel.

Basically it agrees with everything phobiandarkmoon just said.

Nope - you're right, I haven't read it because I've never seen it (though I did hear of it). It came so late in the v1 development cycle, and I have yet to find a hobby shop that carried it that I know very few players/GMs who were able to obtain a copy. I am not saying the information isn't valid, but when so few people have access to it, and it is not contained in a sourcebook that the majority of users/GMs will have (or have access to) then that info does them little good. At that point, it's more like esoteric trivia, and I can't blame a GM, much a less a new GM for not knowing it and incorporating it into their worlds. Which was my point.

That's such rubbish HedgeWizard. The GM kit is not being stocked by most stores, does it not exist? Are the contents simply trivia?

Besides every Troll Slayer Career description be it 1st, 2nd or 3rd edition all make it clear that the Slayer path ends only with death.

As others have mentioned if the crime could be put right, you would not become a Slayer in the first place.

Posted at

Doc, the Weasel said:

It's funny how no one bats an eye when someone changes the rules, but when someone suggests something that goes against the setting, it's heresy.

Keep your canon out of my game!

Well, one thing to remember is that this is a story-driven game. Altering the rules to better tell the story is one thing, but by making Slayers a revolving door career, you cheapen what makes Warhammer Dwarfs, Dwarfs.

This is one of the reasons I've actually made Slayer a special career in my game; in order to become a Slayer, you either need to begin in the career, or you are placed into it if you fail to uphold an oath; it happens instantly, and you pay any applicable advancement points after the fact.

Of course you're free to change whatever you like; in your game, High Elves could be Eldar, Bright Lance weaponry and all. Just realize that at that point you're playing a game only tangentially related to the Warhammer world.

Posted at

Easy gunslinger - the ONLY point I was trying to raise is that we can't expect everyone who comes here to have read material that:

a) they have no access to (includes GM kits they may not have available to them)

b) Pertains or is available in prior incarnations of the setting

I am not saying the info is wrong, and clearly every troll slayer entry points out it is a dead-end career, one whose only reasonable end is a glorious death in combat against some superior foe. Rather, I am just highlighting the assumptions being made in the thread (and other threads here and elsewhere).

At the end of the day, if a GM wants to allow their Troll Slayer player to atone for their sin and move on to a new career, it's their world and their right.

Posted at

HedgeWizard said:

Easy gunslinger - the ONLY point I was trying to raise is that we can't expect everyone who comes here to have read material that:

a) they have no access to (includes GM kits they may not have available to them)

b) Pertains or is available in prior incarnations of the setting

I am not saying the info is wrong, and clearly every troll slayer entry points out it is a dead-end career, one whose only reasonable end is a glorious death in combat against some superior foe. Rather, I am just highlighting the assumptions being made in the thread (and other threads here and elsewhere).

At the end of the day, if a GM wants to allow their Troll Slayer player to atone for their sin and move on to a new career, it's their world and their right.

To me, it just come down to the fact that there's no need to allow a player to atone. There is no reason why they can't another career, while still continuing to be a Slayer. There are many instances of Slayers in the lore that have abilities of another career, but they are still a Slayer.

The only drawback to this approach is that if a Slayer decides to pursue something like the Ironbreaker, he would have no access to the Gromril Armor that the career is defined by.

Edit- I did want to mention that I agree entirely regarding both your points above. I would just say that we should do our best to let people know that such a modification, though certainly allowed, goes against a great deal of what makes the Warhammer world what it is. It's somewhat on the same level as a GM deciding to make magic less hazardous than it already has become in this rule incarnation, adjusting the world to match more of a D&D, Forgotten Realms, "Magic is everywhere, even in your magical coffee pot" setting. It just makes you wonder why they would make such a change at all.

Posted at

Darrett said:

Well, one thing to remember is that this is a story-driven game. Altering the rules to better tell the story is one thing, but by making Slayers a revolving door career, you cheapen what makes Warhammer Dwarfs, Dwarfs.

... Just realize that at that point you're playing a game only tangentially related to the Warhammer world.

Thank you for proving my point.

Posted at

Doc, the Weasel said:

Darrett said:

Well, one thing to remember is that this is a story-driven game. Altering the rules to better tell the story is one thing, but by making Slayers a revolving door career, you cheapen what makes Warhammer Dwarfs, Dwarfs.

... Just realize that at that point you're playing a game only tangentially related to the Warhammer world.

Thank you for proving my point.

That was snarkier than I intended. Let me explain my point:

If you want to change the rules to make a basic career an advanced one, no one is going to tell you that you aren't playing Warhammer anymore (at least credibly).

Now, when someone is told that it's no longer "True Warhammer" for allowing a PC to do something that doesn't ever happen (which is what PCs do), then I call shenanigans.

Most people don't roleplay to play someone else's story. They play to make their own stories.

Posted at

Doc, the Weasel said:

Doc, the Weasel said:

Darrett said:

Well, one thing to remember is that this is a story-driven game. Altering the rules to better tell the story is one thing, but by making Slayers a revolving door career, you cheapen what makes Warhammer Dwarfs, Dwarfs.

... Just realize that at that point you're playing a game only tangentially related to the Warhammer world.

Thank you for proving my point.

That was snarkier than I intended. Let me explain my point:

If you want to change the rules to make a basic career an advanced one, no one is going to tell you that you aren't playing Warhammer anymore (at least credibly).

Now, when someone is told that it's no longer "True Warhammer" for allowing a PC to do something that doesn't ever happen (which is what PCs do), then I call shenanigans.

Most people don't roleplay to play someone else's story. They play to make their own stories.

It's more a setting, rather than a story. Most people do hold true to the setting, especially when it's an integral part of a particular race. The stories themselves may vary, the setting tends to have far less variance.

Like I said, you can do what you like, but the majority of players would find it odd that you'd make such a choice. You can also set your game in the modern world, but, again, you're not really playing Warhammer, you're using the Warhammer rules in a different setting.

While allowing a Slayer to atone doesn't "break" the setting as much as the radical changes I've outlined in previous posts, it does cause some issues, especially when you're dealing with veteran players who know the setting. And though you may allow a Slayer to do something out of the norm, bear in mind that every other Dwarf (if, again, you're leaving the Warhammer vision of a Dwarf in place) will treat that player as an Oathbreaker, who has turned his back on his vow to Grimnir. If you thought having a mutation in the Empire was bad, being an Oathbreaker in the Dwarf Kingdoms makes that look like a vacation.

I guess it just comes down to if you see this game as a method for playing in the Warhammer setting, or just another RPG ruleset that you prefer over D&D or Pathfinder for one reason or another. If it's the latter, then you're free to mix and match whatever you like, since the setting itself isn't of much import. If it's the former, which is likely the case for most of the enthusiasts, then anything beyond minor modifications of canon makes little sense.