Hey Guys,

I'm coming to you today with a totally open-ended question that I don't know the answer to, just wanted to hear what some people experiences were. So I am experimenting with a Veers, 10 activation list, where 1 of my activations is either Boba or the AT-ST. This is partly a 'list-building' question, but I felt it actually touches on a broader subject. Did Boba make the AT-ST obsolete?

So I think a trim AT-ST looks like this:

-Mortar + 88 = 225 points

A good looking Boba might be this:

-Duck + Hunter + Stims = 162 (Boba could be more slim, I know)

So, a 'fat' Boba gives you 63 points to play with (a whole squad with an upgrade) against the AT-ST. Further, their naked, unaimed dice are somewhat scary when you compare them.

Boba, at range 2 (easy for him to achieve) rolls 4 blacks that surge to Crit, ignore cover, and give Pierce 1. Boba averages 2.5 hits in this scenario, and with Pierce 1, can reliably get all of those through. Let's say he is trying to kill some Rebel Scum. Rebels need 3 hits coming in to reliably save 1, so Pierce 1 on 2.5 easily solves this. In short, Boba can expect to kill 2.5 Rebels.

Now let's say the AT-ST has a range 3 shot, and can bring it's full Main Gun + 88 blaster to bare. This is a whopping 9 dice!!! This should easily crush Boba, right? Let's say the Rebels are in heavy cover. Without an aim, the ATST can expect to roll 4.5 hits, since it does not surge. Heavy cover reduces that to...um, 2.5 hits, the same as Boba. Then, without pierce, the Rebels can expect to save .83 guys, which means that the AT ST is killing roughly 2 guys in it's massive attack.

But, let's try to give the ATST some help. Since Boba usually tries to stay mobile to not die, and does hit and runs, and he doesn't really need the aim, he probably moved and shot, or would shoot and them move. The AT ST doesn't have this problem. Further, Veers is probably sitting at it's feet, and can toss it an aim. Thus, in a normal combat situation, we can give the AT ST 2 Aim tokens to spend on this big money attack. Running the math on what dice should be rerolled, we get the reroll should give us 1.75 additional hits (taking into account the odds of rerolling reds vs whites, etc). This gives us a final tally of 6.25 expected hits. Reducing this by heavy we get 4.25 expected hits. The Rebels are expected to block about 1.41 of those hits, which means the ATST is expected to kill 2.8 guys.

TLDR; Boba shooting Rebel troopers in cover can expect to kill 2.5 guys. the ATST with 2 aims can expect to kill 2.8 guys.

Obviously, paying 63 points to kill 0.3 more guys is not amazing, and with Boba's extra cards attacks, Boba could spike his damage on a few rounds, sooo I would maybe call their offensive abilities a wash. Um, sooo why would you ever take an ATST? Well, I will say that the ATST has some advantages against Boba:

-The ATST could panic a poor enemy trooper off the board on Round 1. Combined with a Sniper or two, and you might be able to guarantee it.

-Barring a charging Luke or Vader, or an enemy ATST, the ATST is virtually immortal. It can stand right in the middle of the board covering several objectives with impunity. Boba, on the other hand, can get pinged, especially by enemy units with pierce and sharpshooter. He only has 5 health, and he can lose it.

-One could argue that the ATST can save Veers needing to equip Esteemed Leader, since few units will want to wade into the nose of an ATST.

Of Course, Boba has some advantages as well

-He is a trooper that can score trooper objectives

-He is highly mobile, and can contribute to Breakthrough

-He can score his Bounty objective, which can be key for a low scoring objective game (like Key positions)

Anyways, I don't have an answer, and wanted to see what people thought and what they had experienced. Is the ATST dead now that Boba is out, was it always dead, or with new, cheap Activations (Snipers and soon E-Webs) can you field one competitively, and what does it give you that Boba can not? In short, I LOVE this unit (the ATST that is) and want to see it work!!!

If you’re going for activation spam, take Boba.

If you know your local meta has zero impact (or just the impact that happens to be on DLT), maybe take the AT ST as it can’t be hurt and then run it aggressively.

I still have a limited enough supply of minis I’m fielding both Boba and an AT-ST. Trouble for me was getting overwhelmed by raw spam that the only thing left alive at the end was the ATST that could barely be touched (and wasn’t a top priority anyway with objectives )

I think granade launcher at-st is more effective, for the reasons you highlighted. It will normally do more damage then the 88

I am still waiting to get a few more games in with him, but:

I have played 1 or 2 AT-ST in every game since launch, until 2 weeks ago. When I played a couple games with a 10act list with Boba+Duck+Hunter+Stims. Takeaways:

Boba is really good. I wish I had just run him zero upgrades (I never used any of them). It makes me sad that he is probably more useful than an ATST. Both of my opponents were playing very similar imperial lists to mine though, and I feel like Boba will do less well against Rebels.

As to damage output - I almost always run my ATSTs with Concussion Launcher these days - so while I didn't find Bobas damage output to be awe-inspiring, his utility sure was nice.

2 minutes ago, armada439 said:

I am still waiting to get a few more games in with him, but:

I have played 1 or 2 AT-ST in every game since launch, until 2 weeks ago. When I played a couple games with a 10act list with Boba+Duck+Hunter+Stims. Takeaways:

Boba is really good. I wish I had just run him zero upgrades (I never used any of them). It makes me sad that he is probably more useful than an ATST. Both of my opponents were playing very similar imperial lists to mine though, and I feel like Boba will do less well against Rebels.

As to damage output - I almost always run my ATSTs with Concussion Launcher these days - so while I didn't find Bobas damage output to be awe-inspiring, his utility sure was nice.

Do you run anything besides Concussion, like the 88? Why do you feel the Concussion is so good? Obviously negating cover is nice, but the range 2 is pretty limiting, isn't it? Do you find yourself needing to move the ATST to get the full potential?

11 minutes ago, SirCormac said:

Do you run anything besides Concussion, like the 88? Why do you feel the Concussion is so good? Obviously negating cover is nice, but the range 2 is pretty limiting, isn't it? Do you find yourself needing to move the ATST to get the full potential?

Usually just the Concussion, 88 never felt like it was worth the points. People in my area never bring T47s anymore. ATRTs have also become scarce, so the need for impact 4 isn't there anymore. What people do bring are SabCommandos, Fleets, and Snows. These are all close range units, so yeah, usually round 1 I move the ATSTs up, and shoot the main guns. Then round 2 I move up again, and can shoot main guns and concussions. As a result, I also play pretty aggressively with veers

8 hours ago, armada439 said:

Usually just the Concussion, 88 never felt like it was worth the points. People in my area never bring T47s anymore. ATRTs have also become scarce, so the need for impact 4 isn't there anymore. What people do bring are SabCommandos, Fleets, and Snows. These are all close range units, so yeah, usually round 1 I move the ATSTs up, and shoot the main guns. Then round 2 I move up again, and can shoot main guns and concussions. As a result, I also play pretty aggressively with veers

Thanks for tip! So I played a game tonight with a 10 Activation Veers ATST list, and man was the Concussion money. Ended up killing a Luke who didn't make 1 attack the whole game.

One more thing: I used HQ Uplink onlink on the ATST, and it was great! I played Maximum Fire Power on turn one and used my Uplink, and then turn 2 I played Imp. Disc. to get it back. And then on turn 3 I played Ambush on Veers and popped the Uplink again. Great way to get those tokens out of the pool.

11 hours ago, SirCormac said:

Thanks for tip! So I played a game tonight with a 10 Activation Veers ATST list, and man was the Concussion money. Ended up killing a Luke who didn't make 1 attack the whole game.

One more thing: I used HQ Uplink onlink on the ATST, and it was great! I played Maximum Fire Power on turn one and used my Uplink, and then turn 2 I played Imp. Disc. to get it back. And then on turn 3 I played Ambush on Veers and popped the Uplink again. Great way to get those tokens out of the pool.

Nice! I've never used HQ Uplink, but it sounds like it works quite well

12 hours ago, SirCormac said:

Thanks for tip! So I played a game tonight with a 10 Activation Veers ATST list, and man was the Concussion money. Ended up killing a Luke who didn't make 1 attack the whole game.

One more thing: I used HQ Uplink onlink on the ATST, and it was great! I played Maximum Fire Power on turn one and used my Uplink, and then turn 2 I played Imp. Disc. to get it back. And then on turn 3 I played Ambush on Veers and popped the Uplink again. Great way to get those tokens out of the pool.

HQ Uplink is huge on the ATST, absolutely. The activation control and damage output is massive, especially if you can make the ATST go last and then first turn 1 and 2.

Another point on this: sometimes, looking at the average hit isn't the only information to look it. Max output can also be a consideration. While its not the most common situation, it is still one that can impact a game. Boba maxes (with 2 dice on each weapon, not counting one time use command cards) 4 damage with his arsenal 2. Depending on hardpoint selection, the AT-ST runs 8-9 dice, for a potential of 8-9 damage. Is it likely to put all of that through? Of course not, but on a really good roll, which we usually hope for from our units, even with heavy cover, the AT-ST may still wipe out an entire upgraded unit of corps troopers in a single attack. Boba might do the same on a basic corps group (4 figures), but he has no means of getting up to 6 if, say, a Rebel trooper unit added an extra figure plus heavy weapons.

They both hit the same (approximate) average, 2.5-2.8. They also both hit the same minimum damage of 0. But, if you compare 4 potential damage per turn to 8, the AT-ST has that going for it, as well. An armored, nearly immortal unit with the potential for catastrophic damage output. Is it for every list? Of course not. But, when choosing between Boba and the AT-ST, if you're looking more for damage, the AT-ST offers a more enduring tool for that job. Its armor coupled with high HP makes for a hard unit to eliminate. If you need more troopers for objectives, Boba is capable of that job, while the AT-ST is not.

I can't use Boba Fett as a big portable wall to temporarily alter the topography of the battlefield. So no.

I’m on the boat of the AT-ST wasn’t very good to begin with. That being said I’m trying to make it work in my current list. I really believe it needs to surge on attack dice. The thing costs 250 pts it should be that powerful. Even if that made it on the other side of “balanced” and the meta became to take an AT-ST, there’s enough easy ways to get impact in the game to where you could deal with it. I just think it doesn’t do enough damage for its cost.

I ran an AT-ST recently with mortars, 88's & DW-3 and Arsenal 4 and managed to one shot a squad of rebel troopers in turn one, supressed a comando squad in turn 2 while inflicting a couple of wounds to another squad. Only to be one shotted by Luke with his double attack. It cost my oponent his Luke Skywalker which was good but utterly crippled my damage output for the rest of the game. I do wonder if I had fired all guns on Luke that first turn it would have been a different story or not.

Bang per buck was about 100 points killed for 250 points spend.

Intersetingly my opponent flying an Airspeeder had much the same return taking out a squad and a half of troops.

33 minutes ago, Digimortal said:

I ran an AT-ST recently with mortars and Arsenal 4 and managed to one shot a squad of rebel troopers in turn one, supressed a comando squad in turn 2 while inflicting a couple of wounds to another squad. Only to be one shotted by Luke with his double attack. It cost my oponent his Luke Skywalker which was good but utterly crippled my damage output for the rest of the game. I do wonder if I had fired all guns on Luke that first turn it would have been a different story or not.

Bang per buck was about 100 points killed for 250 points spend.

Intersetingly my opponent flying an Airspeeder had much the same return taking out a squad and a half of troops.

Wait, you don't mean multiple mortars, do you?

4 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

Wait, you don't mean multiple mortars, do you?

Hah I wish, no I meant to write all 3 hardpoint weapons.

Edited

Boba dies to a couple of shots from trooper squads unless he is played very squirrelly. The AT-ST can walk right down the middle of the table and doesn't have to worry about being killed unless the enemy is packing some serious impact weapons. They fill very different rolls.

14 hours ago, Qark said:

Boba dies to a couple of shots from trooper squads unless he is played very squirrelly. The AT-ST can walk right down the middle of the table and doesn't have to worry about being killed unless the enemy is packing some serious impact weapons. They fill very different rolls.

Very true, and if the ATST is worth its points, this is what you are investing in. The offensive fire power is only marginally better, but the defense is a massive boost.

One other thing I realized the other night, killing Luke, is that the ATST with the Grenade launcher is much better than Boba. First, Boba leans on his Pierce 1 to get damage through, and of course Luke is Immune. Second, Boba is afraid of Luke deflecting shots back, while the ATST doesn't really care. So, if we compare:

Boba with Aim against Luke (4 Blacks) = 3.4 Hits (1.7 damage without dodge/0.8 damage with dodge)

ATST with Aim and Grenade Launcher (2 Reds, 4 Blacks, 2 Whites) = 5.1 hits (2.55 damage without dodge/1.36 damage with dodge)

So as a Luke killer, even if Luke has a dodge, the ATST can expect to get a damage in, and can absorb any returned shots, while Boba likely cannot afford to. Also, when Luke does not have a dodge, the ATST, on average, can almost take half of Luke's health, which is significant. Further, a full-health ATST can absorb a Son of Skywalker charge, while Boba would be banking on winning the roll for his 1 pip card.

In the end, as a Luke killer (or Vader, I suppose), the ATST gives you your money's worth, I think.

All of these comparisons are incorrect though. For the price of the AT-ST I can get Boba and a dlt squad. And if you’re comparing to a fully kitted AT, we’re talking Boba, dlt, and basically a sniper strike team or 30 pts of upgrades.

Also, this game is based on objectives. Boba is much much better at securing those objectives and applying pressure than an AT-ST. And then you get all of Bobas cards which make him even more of an impact on the game.

ATST is probably 20pts overcosted and can be ignored largely on several missions

Airspeeder is probably 15pts overcosted and rarely sees play.

Boba plays much differently and does not have the damage output as mentioned above, but can spread suppression and add vp due to his Bounty as well as steal and hold objectives quite well.

I’ve gotten 3 games in with the AT-ST as a revisit. He’s definitely better now than he was a few months ago, here’s why; trooper spam. Lots of lists these days are pretty near maxed out on troopers, making units with impact a lot less. With this being said, Boba and an extra dlt is still the better route if you want to win. But, you can definitely win with the AT-ST. Takes practice, need to be feeding it an aim from Veers and moving with one of its activations every round. Picking your targets with it is also key. Getting another game with it in tomorrow, we’ll see how it does. The guy I’m facing was running a 12 unit all trooper list at the last tourney so seems promising!

4 hours ago, lukecook said:

I’ve gotten 3 games in with the AT-ST as a revisit. He’s definitely better now than he was a few months ago, here’s why; trooper spam. Lots of lists these days are pretty near maxed out on troopers, making units with impact a lot less. With this being said, Boba and an extra dlt is still the better route if you want to win. But, you can definitely win with the AT-ST. Takes practice, need to be feeding it an aim from Veers and moving with one of its activations every round. Picking your targets with it is also key. Getting another game with it in tomorrow, we’ll see how it does. The guy I’m facing was running a 12 unit all trooper list at the last tourney so seems promising!

Saying one is objectively better than the other "if you want to win" seems a bit ridiculous at this point, especially since they are so different. Maybe for you that's true, but individual skill and playstyle have to be taken into consideration. Plus, terrain changes, as does your opponent.

Points spent vs points killed is a useful, but very limited metric. There are a ton of other factors that matter in a game, however. The AT-ST is a tank, meant to claim an area and keep it. Boba is a harrier, meant to cause trouble on the flanks. I think both are viable, but require very different game plans and supporting armies.

Not read all of this...but surely a big plus for the ATST is that its a stompy walking Star Wars machine of goodness?

AT-ST is useful if someone picks breakthrough as the objective and ends up with a smaller deployment area for both players.

You'd have to really think about weather or not to put stuff into the oppositions deployment area if there's an AT-ST with an aim token sat in it.

5 hours ago, Qwrety77 said:

Saying one is objectively better than the other "if you want to win" seems a bit ridiculous at this point, especially since they are so different. Maybe for you that's true, but individual skill and playstyle have to be taken into consideration. Plus, terrain changes, as does your opponent.

Points spent vs points killed is a useful, but very limited metric. There are a ton of other factors that matter in a game, however. The AT-ST is a tank, meant to claim an area and keep it. Boba is a harrier, meant to cause trouble on the flanks. I think both are viable, but require very different game plans and supporting armies.

It really doesn’t seem ridiculous to me when it’s basically been proven by winning lists at all tournaments. Haven’t seen a single one out there. So, yes, if you want to win I’d say the stats show to not take an AT-ST over taking one.

4 minutes ago, lukecook said:

It really doesn’t seem ridiculous to me when it’s basically been proven by winning lists at all tournaments. Haven’t seen a single one out there. So, yes, if you want to win I’d say the stats show to not take an AT-ST over taking one.

Causation does not equal correlation.

All winning tourney lists have had no AT-STs?

But how many winning tourney lists have Boba? If there are none, then he should be just as bad as the AT-ST by comparison.