On 10/22/2018 at 6:31 PM, Varulfr said:

Just finished a trooper last night I'm feeling like I'm in a bit of a rut with my painting. I started over ten years ago and I feel like I have barely improved.

it took me hours just to get this trooper done, and I'm not even thrilled by how it looks. I've seen guys churning out stuff 10x as fast with better detail, let alone some of those gods posting pics of Vader with blue highlights and all kinds of other perfection. I've watched videos and practiced... I still take forever, still can't dilute my paints properly, still have trouble with washes, still can't avoid graininess, and still can't get an even coat of a paint to appear on a flat surface. I've had these same problems since I started. The most frustrating thing is that I think I even understand what I'm supposed to do in theory, but I just can't get the theory to take hold in reality.

Compared to some Sohei 28mm I did recently, which I'm ok with... but still, the stuff I've seen out there, I just don't see how I can ever even begin to get to the levels of Sorastro and the rest of you guys.

How do you all deal with feelings of inadequacy in a hobby that's supposed to be a source of pleasure and relaxation? I get that my big problem is that I am comparing to others, but how do I get better without comparing, and how do I deal with the inevitable thoughts of "jeese, why do I even bother trying?" that invariably accompanies that comparison? How do I deal with feeling like I am never getting closer to the goal of others' skill?

Mate, first of all your minis look really good! Clean and effective paintjob and I can just imagine how fantastic an army of them would look at the table! Well maybe not the elves and stormtroopers together, but each on their own

Secondly, ive been painting various minis for various games on and off for 5 years now and I cant put together anything as good as your stormies, trust me I tried and it looked like a lump of molten crayons ? Ive become fairly decent using airbrush and painting larger vehicles, but smaller models and details I simply dont have the skill nor the patience for it.

You shouldnt really compare yourself to Sorastro (he is doing official painting guides for the game, he is better then most people will ever be) or anyone else of equal skill. And remember that what you can see on the internet is not the average of the skill going around, your watching what should be considered above average skill levels, most people who arent happy with their results usually doesnt post them online either.

Ive come to a point where I realised I will never reach the level of painting that I see in all the guides I follow. I can still improve, and I always try to do better, but in the end I want it to be a fun and rewarding hobby, not a stressful chore of disappointment. It has allowed me to appreciate finished models, units, armies, terrain pieces even if they arent nearly as fine as many post online, but they are still finished and they are mine!

So relax about it and realise that your doing this in your spare time, you are choosing to spend your time painting these models...If you arent enjoying it your not doing it right! It can be difficult to change or adapt a different mindset about something but if you feel the way you are about it, you gonna have to sooner rather then later or it might ruin the entire hobby for you ?

Again though, your minis look great, much better then anything I have painted and I would bet above average wherever you take them! And even if they dont, if you bring them to a table facing golden demon winners, who cares! Make sure you beat them in the game

And a final little comment; Even a badly painted army will look fantastic when deployed together on a table!

If it is ugly, people aren't posting and bragging about it. What you see posted to the internet are basically the supermodels of painted minis. Of course the average paint job isn't going to hold up. If you desire to be the best, first, take art classes. They should teach a whole lot more than, show up and draw something. Practice is key to getting good but there is a lot of knowledge about art and how to create it. Second, spend a few years practicing. All these really nice painted models weren't people's third try.

Also, go look at Sorastro's earlier videos and compare them to his later ones. He starts out already pretty good but still improves over time. That is the key, you'll improve over time. It requires both a lot of practice but also research into how all of this is done. None of those "how to paint a mini" video covers basic art class material.

Don't feel bad about it. Everyone hits plateaus where they don't feel like they're getting any better. Eventually we hit a point where its actually true, but most even workmanship level paint jobs still look great when you're actually playing with the stuff. Even the stuff shown here probably compares quite favorably with some pretty outstanding stuff up to the point someone puts their nose to it.

A few things I'd suggest if you really want to improve though:

- Try different model lines: Jumping around games gives you some significant opportunity to experiment. New color schemes, new basing schemes, different styles of models, etc. Whenever I'm in a rut, I find starting someone completely new with the intention of trying something with it works well.

- Model quality counts: Some people have the ability to take a flat, undetailed model and basically paint whatever they want you to see on it like its a blank canvas. Few people are that good. Better models can help a lot, giving you more details to focus on often better sculpt work (particularly in the faces) to work with and as a result, they often look better with the same relative skill.

- Not every model needs to be a masterpiece: This is particularly true in games with 20+ models. My first Legion Stormtrooper was painted cream and slowly layered up to white. The other 50+ of them are mostly just primed white, washed black and highlighted white again. I cannot say with certainty I can find that guy in the pile. Part of my current love of skirmish games is the ability to spend serious time on every model, but for something like Legion, I'm really only going to really try on things like Vader, Veers, Boba, etc.

As to your particular models. For one, the Stormtrooper overall looks pretty good. It looks like the back you had some problems getting the white smooth, which a wet palette would probably help with. Keep in mind though, that smooth whites are just hard in general, and honestly, Star Wars looks good a little dirty. What I'd actually suggest is do the basing on the models and repost them. A good base gives you some different color to contrast with the rest of the model and tends to help make the paint scheme on the model stand out. Think of it as adding the background to a green screen image.

Lunarsol above here made a great comment. Basing.

Basing is going to do wonders for your models. They are overall technically good, but currently lack that pop and contrast you get from a nice base.

I base my Legion models the old fashioned way, diluted white glue painted over the top of the base, followed by a dip into some fine sand. I let this dry for a couple of days, then apply a base coat followed by a highlight.

Beyond that. Can you list the type of equipment you are using?

What brushes, what paints etc..

I'd love to help you improve, just like the rest of the people in this neat community!

Your stuff looks fine. I went through similar things awhile ago. I solved by asking myself some much more fundamental questions about art in order to work through it. But yeah what they said: BASE THEM. Huge bang for your buck right there.

Figure out what you're doing and why you are doing it and make your modelling, and the quality of it, and the pacing of it, serve the purpose(s) you want them to, and you will become happier with your skill level.

Some models, I take slow and try to do my best work on. Sometimes these models get pushed aside for years so I can acquire skills I want to apply to them. This is often the fate of vintage models I paint for nostalgic purposes.

Some, I just try to get painted so they can be used. Most of my Legion stuff falls into this.

Others, I paint for educational purposes and take actual risks on and try to improve myself. A lot of my Legion stuff also comes under this banner because it has a weird scale and I'm not afraid to produce sloppy work on a bunch of Star Wars toys so they are good learning models.

A little book learning goes a long way. Don't forget to periodically do some relevant studying outside of tutorials. These old lines are about drawing but they bear repeating over and over even for us: "Drawing is about seeing" and "Draw what you see, not what you think you see". Figure out if you are trying to REPRODUCE an image from real life, or if you are trying to COMMUNICATE an idea to a viewer using visual cues: this can matter a great deal as to how and when colors are applied. Also, study nature and primary source materials such as, in the case of Legion, movie stills.

A lot of the best modelers I know have a dayjob as a high school art teacher or something, and they are sickeningly good. Assuming you don't do this 40 hours a week piled on top of a large amount of formal training: at some point, you will quite probably plateau and even get worse as your eyes age and your hands get arthritis. Now the stuff I saw at IPMS conventions, THAT stuff is crazy good, I have no idea how those people do that stuff. But if you played a game with it, you'd break it, so it was irrelevant.

Learn what techniques work for you and which ones do not. Never forget to regularly look at your models (especially supernumeraries) from 3 feet away. Never forget that your model's paintjobs will be getting some real life battle damage so maybe a paintjob worthy of the guidebooks will be even more demoralizing when it gets damaged! Maybe go so far as to avoid buying models that look like they will be best served by the application of techniques you dislike or will be bored by.

Don't forget that the camera can add an air of impossibility to someone else's work. I have traveled around the UK to look at original Citadel 'Eavy Metal team paintjobs (not an easy task being an American). I can say, they look a lot more like the products of mere mortals in person. I thought would never be up to the task of reproducing the pages of White Dwarf, but then I saw the exact same models in real life I thought "I could paint almost that well if I tried!". There's also something about seeing an actual model that makes it much easier to figure out how it's done than seeing a picture. Whether it's gaming minis or something else, a google image search is never the same as going to see real objects in person. I'm not suggesting that everyone travel to become a better hobby painter. But I am telling you, the models in the manuals wouldn't look as good if you saw them in person.

Take a break from model paints. Get a color wheel, read a book or two, and spend a year, or paint an army, or whatever, using only a dozen or so tubes of paint, mixing everything you need. Then you can go back to model paints but using that experience to help you. But learning your colors like that is sort of like learning your musical scales instead of just memorizing how to play certain songs. Also, get some inks and some matte acrylic medium and go crazy making your own washes and glazes and stuff. Holy cow is that fun. Most inks are so pigment rich you can make your own layering paints using them and acrylic mediums.

Eventually, your skill level might top out but you can work on improving your speed. If I had to, I could paint two, 800 point, armies for Legion in a week's worth of free time. My techniques for models of this scale are a little brush time, then 8 hours of drying time, over and over till it's done. So if I assembled and primed 2 armies on Monday night, I could paint for 30-60 minutes Tuesday morning, let it dry over the workday, come home, paint for 30-60 minutes before bed, let it dry, etc. etc. There is something oddly satisfying about painting swarms of stuff to a nice standard at a breakneck pace.

On 10/22/2018 at 12:31 PM, Varulfr said:

it took me hours just to get this trooper done, and I'm not even thrilled by how it looks.

Ok. Now go paint another one in under an hour. Put them next to each other on a table of scenery and stand a couple feet away. They'll look exactly the same. So it ought not impact your enjoyment of the games unless you are trying to find the flaws to pick at. Which some people can't help, but I'd advise against it.

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I've seen guys churning out stuff 10x as fast with better detail, let alone some of those gods posting pics of Vader with blue highlights and all kinds of other perfection.

In my experience those highlights and stuff usually look bad during actual games. This is a hybrid art form. Painting on source lighting, extensive highlights, reflections in the eyes of vader's helmet, non-metal metallics, etc. looks great from one specific angle in a photo or display case. But during games, the angle changes every movement phase, and is being viewed by two players from two different angles at all times.

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How do you all deal with feelings of inadequacy in a hobby that's supposed to be a source of pleasure and relaxation? I get that my big problem is that I am comparing to others, but how do I get better without comparing, and how do I deal with the inevitable thoughts of "jeese, why do I even bother trying?" that invariably accompanies that comparison? How do I deal with feeling like I am never getting closer to the goal of others' skill?

Cause I am all out of F's to give. I ran out of them and had to take out a big loan to get more of them to give, then I defaulted on that loan and declared bankruptcy where are all F's are concerned. I paint 100% of the models I use. If I can't get something painted by game night it's not in my army list. If these models transport me to a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, then they are good enough. Done and done. Here's how that happened. At some point, I figured out that ALL my miniature wargaming can be traced back to a love of these toys as a child. Therefore I measure ALL paintjobs (mine and other gamers) as simply better or worse than these.

Many paintjobs use more colors, and shading, and aren't any more (and sometimes less) effective than this at communicating what the art piece needs to tell the viewer.

On 11/25/2018 at 1:01 PM, TauntaunScout said:

Ok. Now go paint another one in under an hour. Put them next to each other on a table of scenery and stand a couple feet away. They'll look exactly the same. So it ought not impact your enjoyment of the games unless you are trying to find the flaws to pick at. Which some people can't help, but I'd advise against it.

Case in point, the following picture:

One of these stormtroopers was painted starting with beige and building up layers until I had a final white. Six of them were primed white and given another layer of white over the wash for highlights. If you can tell me which one is the one I spent all the time on, please let me know, because I've forgotten.

Also, for double bonus challenge, see if you can pick him out of this picture:

3 hours ago, LunarSol said:

Case in point, the following picture:

One of these stormtroopers was painted starting with beige and building up layers until I had a final white. Six of them were primed white and given another layer of white over the wash for highlights. If you can tell me which one is the one I spent all the time on, please let me know, because I've forgotten.

This is probably the best way to contextualize your feeling and I'm so happy someone posted it. Cuz we've all been there - you spent ages on a model and then you look at your work and think "wow, this is not very good." And then you don't touch them for months because "you can't get it right and it takes too long".

I'd recommend making a deliberate effort to develop an assembly line. Take a batch of units and give yourself a time limit for a stage - 7 models drybrushed in 2 hours.

Then take another technique, give yourself another time limit, and do the same. Before you know it, you'll find yourself getting better at quick details - the repetition helps you develop your technique and makes it easier to get the result you want, while also preventing you from burning too much time on an individual model. Keep it up, adding bits to a whole batch of models and you'll be like @LunarSol with a whole unit fully painted in that same amount of time and even up close can't tell which was which.

(These models all look super awesome and @LunarSol did great work)

Your troopers may not be as bright and shiny as some, but mine aren't either; rather than being bothered by that fact, I embraced it as giving a little more of a weathered, used look- like troopers who'd been on deployment and in action for a while. Admittedly, I cheated, and used a Tamiya gloss white to base coat the Stormtroopers and Scouts, after a good primer of course. Spray paint can be your friend, and the gloss helps to keep the wash from dominating the miniature too much.

I KNOW my minis don't look as good as many of the ones I've seen online, but they relax me to work on them, and I enjoy seeing the results when I put them on the table. And, of course, I suspect that the Stormtroopers are going to make you harsher on yourself than you ought to be. If I were comparing my troopers to minis I painted for Lord of the Rings 10 years ago, I might think I hadn't improved. However, by comparing my Stormtroopers to the ones I painted for Imperial Assault a year and a half ago it becomes really obvious that my painting has gotten better. Nearly any mini you've ever painted is going to be more forgiving and offer more flexible options to hide mistakes than Stormtroopers.

Honestly, I thought about using my IA Stormtroopers to proxy more corps units for Legion, and I couldn't do it- not because of scale, but simply because the IA ones look so cheap by comparison. They were far better and eye pleasing than the old Wizards of the Coast ones, but they look cheap next to my Legion work. And I am by no means a great painter.

As for "ten years and not getting better" I started painting 25mm(ish) Star Wars minis* when I was 4. I'm 37 and mine still don't look great. So ten years isn't too bad! I can't draw a straight line with a ruler, I have real inherent limitations on my artistic endeavors.

*It was the old Jabba's Throne Room diorama model kit. I was painting them to use with the above mentioned toys. I still have a few somewhere. I should post them sometime.

I know I'm resurrecting this a bit, but I hadn't checked it in a while and really... I just want to say how awesome you guys are! I'm really finding that this is such a great hobby not just for the pew pews and cool stuff, but also because of the excellent folks who encourage and advise and assist and teach in so many ways.

Thanks again for everyone's advice, I'm definitely feeling a lot better about my work now, and I've recently dived into another batch too! I even have some Steel Fist Samurai going and feel really positive, now that I have things in perspective.

Let's keep this kind of community going!

Best advice I was ever given (about 30 years ago) by GW ‘Eavy Metal painter Tim Prow was painting is 10% skill, 90% patience.

On 2/16/2019 at 11:59 AM, Varulfr said:

I know I'm resurrecting this a bit, but I hadn't checked it in a while and really... I just want to say how awesome you guys are! I'm really finding that this is such a great hobby not just for the pew pews and cool stuff, but also because of the excellent folks who encourage and advise and assist and teach in so many ways.

Thanks again for everyone's advice, I'm definitely feeling a lot better about my work now, and I've recently dived into another batch too! I even have some Steel Fist Samurai going and feel really positive, now that I have things in perspective.

Let's keep this kind of community going!

Comparing your gaming mini paintjobs to the best of what's out there, is like comparing your personal looks to Hollywood's darlings. That way lies madness.

Tim Prow probably had 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, to paint. At some point hobbyists will hit a point of diminishing returns.