10 hours ago, Quarrel said:

How are people welcoming our new Initiative 5-6 15-pt bid overlords?

Specifically, what, other than joining them, is beating them?

What looks unfruitful:

• Stress control. Because it no longer exists. (WAT?)

I know @Managarmr already said this, but it has to be said again...

See Sloane, 4LOM, and 0-0-0. All of which have placed well in large events so far. Also Sloane with many arcs munch aces.

The one thing on this topic depends a lot on your own list and capabilities.

Some General rules I use to deal with higher Aces.

1. Be patient and let them commit first where they plan to try to initiate engagement. Especially if you don’t have the numbers advantage, don’t be in a rush to fight Aces.

2. Make them fight in the Asteroids. Two or three things happens here. You limit where they can go by closing lanes off. People can misjudge and end up either blocked or trapped on obstacles either being stressed or worse no shot at all. You can simply block them onto obstacles even if they would normally complete a maneuver otherwise.

3. Threatening to block. Sometimes you follow through with a block. Otherwise you just look like your going to and then position differently based on where they will want to be to avoid blocking. Sometimes you end up being the one to shoot without a return shot because you didn’t do the obvious blocking maneuvers.

4. Don’t panic! Seems obvious but I cannot tell you how many opponents and players I have seen forget what they built their list to do. They panic when they are out I/PS. You had an idea of what your list wanted to do. Make sure you do it and don’t let your opponent dictate what your doing. If its a new list expect mistakes and learn from them.

I will say that all of the anti-ace tools that aren't "maximum firepower" are not available to the Rebel faction at all, so my doctrine when building Rebel lists continues to be maximum dakka combined with maximum swarm tactics.

Also it should be noted that partial fortressing is now a strategy that is officially allowed by FFG's tournament rules if you're really feeling desperate. Just bump all your ships except for one (which could be a sheathipede moving back and forth or a TIE fighter doing 1-hards and barrel rolls) and FFG seems to be perfectly fine with it.

4 minutes ago, RStan said:

I know @Managarmr already said this, but it has to be said again...

See Sloane, 4LOM, and 0-0-0. All of which have placed well in large events so far. Also Sloane with many arcs munch aces.

Sloan and 0-0-0 can be denied. 4-LOM needs to gain stress himself (which can only naturally be done with a red move on that ship, as it has no red actions), plus end a round at range 0-1 of a ship that moves later and can reposition, which pretty much means it'll only happen on a block. So, again, you aren't stressing things unless you're either A. working your entire list + terrain around making it happen, or B. setting things up to capitalize on what your opponent chose to do instead of taking the stress. That is far harder than stress control in first edition, which was generally accomplished by simply shooting one ship at something.

4 minutes ago, Quarrel said:

Sloan and 0-0-0 can be denied .

Please explain...

44 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Not sure why you are 1v1ing a defender with just a single blocking ship.

If it is the late game though, and 1v1, the Defender is almost unkillable. That's not a bug, but a feature; it's why the chassis alone costs more than all other small ship aces. If that's the board state the best you can do is probably to just accept the loss and try to hang onto your points for as good an MOV as possible.

1 hour ago, NeonWolf said:

How about Homing Missiles....

I agree.

Zs with homing and As with homing are my first go-to.

Just now, RStan said:

Please explain...

0-0-0 you just choose to give them a calculate instead of taking a stress. Sloane technically you can win without ever triggering Sloane by just scoring half-points on all your opponent's ships, though that is a lot more punishing than just giving one ship a calculate token.

But Sloane is an Imperial upgrade and right now the best aces in the game are Imperial, so that's just a continuation of the Imperial self-****ing happening in 2.0.

14 minutes ago, RStan said:

Please explain...

Kill her first. She doesn't trigger on her own death.

10 minutes ago, Quarrel said:

Kill her first. She doesn't trigger on her own death.

That Sloane player has made a massive mistake if that scenario occurs. In some cases, by the time that happens, the rest of the list has put in enough damage to finish out the game.

Either way, the "Stress Control" aspect you're actually speaking to is "Giving Stress Tokens," which yes is down by comparison to 1st edition, but that doesn't mean it's not a level of "Control" still active on the board. When Sloane is on the board, I know my opponent wants to kill Sloane first and I'm not going to give them that option without going through the rest of my list via a screening position. It's not just killing my ships, but disrupting the decision of linking actions or red actions. When 4LOM is on the board, that is a range 0-1 area around a medium base that you should not be in and actively taking actions or maneuvers to move out of it is control that the rest of my list can take advantage of for better shots. Simply with the 0-0-0 interaction, if they make the mistake of taking the stress, cool, but 95% of the time, that's a free modification which for only 3 pts in 2nd edition, I'll definitely take. I don't always need the stress to be active on the ships, although it definitely helps things along, I just need it to help dictate what my opponent does and dictating aces' movements, is a big deal.

Nvm

How to beat aces: play better than them, set up kill boxes, and use control elements. Case in point, watch Alex Smittle absolutely demolish my backside for the second time in two days in the Crossroads Classic. Not only did his Princess Bride mindgames result in me chickening out into horrible decisions in a vain attempt to be unpredictable as well as getting blocked and then tractored, but he was extremely patient in the match. I foolishly thought that I was performing epic blocks/kill boxes and arc dodging in my previous elimination games, but his patience and planning ahead...makes me rightfully seem like a scrub blessed with luck. But hey! Epic swag from the event and the reassurance that 2.0 doesn't have any of that auto-loss bull based on matchups.

2:34: He reads on turn 0 my set-up of rocks at r3 as a fallback point to hide from tractoring. Knowing this, he sets up in what will be revealed as using that and the board edge as a sandwich of death.

13:13: Evidence of the set-up. A range 3 engagement is bad for his list. But he knows I like to creep to engage. Perfect range control denied me shots.

17:03: Kavil threads the asteroid line that will get him options. Dorsal against Whisper on Starboard, and threat to Rexler on Fore.

17:35: K-turn by Fenn not only checks any cheekiness that a zooming Soontir might have pulled, but offers options to pursue the bugging out Soontir in time.

21:40: Rather than going for the tempting 3-bank to mindgame Rex, he 2-turned to make a relatively meaningless tractor but an epic block on any tricks whisper would have. Yes, my clumsiness in moving the ships resulted in the tractor when I am quite confident it would not have hit the rock, but excellent play nonetheless. In my litany of mistakes in the rest of the game, Rex would be chickening out of the fight, recovering from the PTSD of round 1's short life in 2 agility.

22:26: Tugboat is flanking on the otherside. A lot of scrub tugboats shove them in and hope for tugs, allowing me to tear them apart. Alex patiently flanks and capitalizes on my mistakes.

23:25: Yes, the 2 turn starboard or something along those lines is nice to 4 dice dorsal Whisper if she tried the standard decloak (which that tugboat earlier was going to cover). The 1-forward gave the flexibility to fire the torps or the turret, effectively solidifying his control over the balance for the rest of the game.

33:02: Princess Bride once more. Yes, I could have just 3-forwarded to blast the boat, but he knows that in these situations I go for the scrub moves because I mistake the opponent to believe me smarter to not do them. Plus, even if I did do the 3-forward, my gun from Rex is not pointed backwards. His good position that offers flexibility is its own reward: my attempted 4-K is a tasty bonus.

37:45: When I get desperate trying to kill a Defender, I will throw all my elements at it. I see other people do that both against me and as a spectator. But Alex knows I stereotypically bug out with Soontir (especially in my past in-game rants as to how cool Kylo is for not being afraid of being blocked and his ultimate shenanigans). My mistake to bug out and assume all the aggro on Rex. True, the dice betrayed him there, but excellent move.

42:00: With his boat there, my woefully forgetful Soontir makes his biggest blunder of all tournament. Were I to do the smart thing and go the other direction or run over rocks, that boat would not be led on a merry chase, and thus he is in a good position. Again, good and patient move beforehand, but I also hand him the bonus.

50:04: BTW, the wording on Full Throttle is different than that of TIE/X7. I skip the action step, but the free action after immediately moving is still in effect.

53:37: Oof, that sloppiness on that Rex rock earlier bites hard! But in all honesty, I lost that game to making mistakes in attempting to be clever (or forgetting to think through things) and The Dread Pirate Roberts capitalizing them with both goblets poisoned! I can't complain about Rex's propensity to roll a single evade and rest blanks on many of his throws because over all his greens were standard and complaining about dice means you were in a bad position for dice, as video evidence displays. And Alex did not roll hot over that game, as a passive observer had declared, as he positioned himself properly and even had his reds freeze up.

3 hours ago, RStan said:

That Sloane player has made a massive mistake if that scenario occurs. In some cases, by the time that happens, the rest of the list has put in enough damage to finish out the game.

Either way, the "Stress Control" aspect you're actually speaking to is "Giving Stress Tokens," which yes is down by comparison to 1st edition, but that doesn't mean it's not a level of "Control" still active on the board. When Sloane is on the board, I know my opponent wants to kill Sloane first and I'm not going to give them that option without going through the rest of my list via a screening position. It's not just killing my ships, but disrupting the decision of linking actions or red actions. When 4LOM is on the board, that is a range 0-1 area around a medium base that you should not be in and actively taking actions or maneuvers to move out of it is control that the rest of my list can take advantage of for better shots. Simply with the 0-0-0 interaction, if they make the mistake of taking the stress, cool, but 95% of the time, that's a free modification which for only 3 pts in 2nd edition, I'll definitely take. I don't always need the stress to be active on the ships, although it definitely helps things along, I just need it to help dictate what my opponent does and dictating aces' movements, is a big deal.

But the very threat of the thing that kills her can cause her formation to break up so that at least one ship is outside of r3. It's the best way to make sure that she doesn't trigger, for either she dies, or eventually a friend dies without triggering. Also, half pointing literally all her friends and winning on time is a strategy that can proc more often than it sounds.

5 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

I kinda wanna try Defenders

Since the x7 days, I've never felt the need to out PS anyone (until Nym came along, but that's a special case yeah?) because the base package was just so **** solid that being out PSed didn't really matter

Partnered with the white 4k, which lets you maneuver behind aces where they can't really react to you as easily, and I've found Defenders to stand up to even Fen Rau derping in with his full, five-dice mods

Now, I have NOT run 2nd ed Defenders yet , but I'm interested.

Worried that the increase costs makes them incredibly susceptible to ordnance alphas , but the fact that they have boost now is exceptionally interesting and useful for closing the no-man's-land between where you'll move and where higher I ordnance will TL from

This'll probably be my first attempt:

( 198 )

Delta Squadron Pilot — TIE Defender	72
Fire-Control System	3
Ship Total: 75
Delta Squadron Pilot — TIE Defender	72
[Prototype] Ship Total: 72
Colonel Jendon — Lambda-Class Shuttle	46
Director Krennic	5
Ship Total: 51

Personally, I've loved flying OGP/Palp with 2x Deltas (no other upgrades). Haven't lost in like 6-7 games, mostly casual days but 3-0 in a very small kit tourney. I think that having the same initiative on the Shuttle and Defender is really handy for using Coordinate for positioning, and Palp, while potentially lackluster, just seems like the best fit for Defenders. They don't need Ciena Ree for positioning tricks since they're moving first anyhow. They won't die easy enough to make good use of Admiral Sloane. Maybe just Kallus or Collision Detector for the shuttle + FCS on both Defenders would be an alternative. But Palp lets you Lock and use movement actions more freely, and still have a token to spend in addition to Full Throttle. With their 4 shields, I feel like they can take a bit more risk than flimsier aces, and Palp works into their play style well.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

Personally, I've loved flying OGP/Palp with 2x Deltas (no other upgrades). Haven't lost in like 6-7 games, mostly casual days but 3-0 in a very small kit tourney. I think that having the same initiative of the Shuttle and Defender is really handy for using Coordinate for positioning, and Palp, while potentially lackluster, just seems like the best fit for Defenders. They don't need Ciena Ree for positioning tricks since they're moving first anyhow. They won't die easy enough to make good use of Admiral Sloane. Maybe just Kallus or Collision Detector for the shuttle + FCS on both Defenders would be an alternative. But Palp lets you Lock and use movement actions more freely, and still have a token to spend in addition to Full Throttle.

Me like, despite the fact that I miss Ion on a TIE/D Maarek and VI on x7 Ryad for a fun salad. New Palp is awesome (especially with the "Dewitt!" art) thanks to his reactionary power, especially on 3 agi evade generators such as a Defender. I've tried Palp with two Juking stealth Phantoms, but he just works so much better with defenders (that 3rd die is always there, more health, better blocking abilities, could use the coordinate action for things like boost or lock or even evade if going slow, are more appreciative of a timely jam, and generally disregard who has init in the endgame). I daresay that it is markably better than the "generic" double defender list, that being 2 deltas and Soontir.

5 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

I kinda wanna try Defenders

Since the x7 days, I've never felt the need to out PS anyone (until Nym came along, but that's a special case yeah?) because the base package was just so **** solid that being out PSed didn't really matter

Partnered with the white 4k, which lets you maneuver behind aces where they can't really react to you as easily, and I've found Defenders to stand up to even Fen Rau derping in with his full, five-dice mods

Now, I have NOT run 2nd ed Defenders yet , but I'm interested.

Worried that the increase costs makes them incredibly susceptible to ordnance alphas , but the fact that they have boost now is exceptionally interesting and useful for closing the no-man's-land between where you'll move and where higher I ordnance will TL from

This'll probably be my first attempt:

( 198 )

Delta Squadron Pilot — TIE Defender	72
Fire-Control System	3
Ship Total: 75
Delta Squadron Pilot — TIE Defender	72
[Prototype] Ship Total: 72
Colonel Jendon — Lambda-Class Shuttle	46
Director Krennic	5
Ship Total: 51

The white 4k is great and makes the defender so good in 2.0. Brath is a killer, so I’ve been trying him paired with an Onyx Ace Defender and a named Tie fighter. I’ve been flying the Defenders with Juke, but interested in some of the other upgrades others are trying (like @Bad Idea Comics mentioned).

I was a total Ryad fan in 1.0, but the white 4k makes her less attractive now.

17 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Me like, despite the fact that I miss Ion on a TIE/D Maarek and VI on x7 Ryad for a fun salad. New Palp is awesome (especially with the "Dewitt!" art) thanks to his reactionary power, especially on 3 agi evade generators such as a Defender. I've tried Palp with two Juking stealth Phantoms, but he just works so much better with defenders (that 3rd die is always there, more health, better blocking abilities, could use the coordinate action for things like boost or lock or even evade if going slow, are more appreciative of a timely jam, and generally disregard who has init in the endgame). I daresay that it is markably better than the "generic" double defender list, that being 2 deltas and Soontir.

I just feel like positioning is so important for Delta Squadron Pilots, and a Palpatine Omicron enables that so well. Coordinating extra actions--perhaps just tokens to allow the Defender to use movement actions or bump, but also granting them spicy pre-move boosts and barrel rolls--are huge. Palp lets you push that even further because he'll help cover their rolls.

Meanwhile, a Shuttle dies fairly slow. If your opponent guns for it first, it can Reinforce and soak enough fire that it'll probably allow the Defenders to gain as much of a lead as they'll need. Soontir can die in a single shot. I don't really feel like a Palp OGP is going to be right in most lists, but I think it's probably the best partner for a pair of Deltas.

22 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

I thought these words would never ever enter the forum... but.... triple Punishers flinging bombs, blowing up asteroids and launching Torpedoes. I dont think 3 aces can kill a Punisher in one turn, but it does sadden me that the meta is starting to form and it isn't great. It harkens back to the days of Triple JM5K's.

Absolutely not.

One turn of focus fire melts a punisher for good.

True that redline is a monster now but can still die pretty well.

Plus with that medium base it's even easier to block him.

11 hours ago, RStan said:

That Sloane player has made a massive mistake if that scenario occurs. In some cases, by the time that happens, the rest of the list has put in enough damage to finish out the game.

I've played Sloane a lot, and I lose her in a little less than half of my games. I know I need to get better at range control and keeping that TIE reaper safe. But as you stated, as long as your team has put in enough damage before she falls, you still have a chance. I'm always torn between having my Sloane carrier contribute to the first round of combat, or hang back out of range of the enemy, while maintaining range 3 of the strikers. Most games I have had her in combat range, but still not sure when that's the wrong call.

Lol if you think it's difficult to get stress off with 4LOM.

Park him in the rocks, force them to come past him. The only times I've not had a stress every round and a red every round are the ones where he dies, or I mess up and leave too much space for them to run past or not enough to 2k.

4LOM is brutal to unprepared aces and still nasty to ones that know the tricks.

8 hours ago, dadocollin said:

I was a total Ryad fan in 1.0, but the white 4k makes her less attractive now.

Don't be put off by that, she doesn't need to dump stress all the time now. Givr her AdvS and Outmanoeuvre and you have a total lunatic on your hands. She can literally be anywhere in 2 turns, facing whatever way you want.

9 hours ago, dadocollin said:

The white 4k is great and makes the defender so good in 2.0. Brath is a killer, so I’ve been trying him paired with an Onyx Ace Defender and a named Tie fighter. I’ve been flying the Defenders with Juke, but interested in some of the other upgrades others are trying (like @Bad Idea Comics mentioned).

I was a total Ryad fan in 1.0, but the white 4k makes her less attractive now.

My double Defender list is Brath and Ryad, both with Advanced Sensors and Outmaneuver. It's clean and simple. One thing it especially excels at is killing Luke. Force points on defense matter much less when you're rolling just one green die. He dies quick vs Outmaneuvering Defenders.

On 10/22/2018 at 3:52 AM, Archangelspiv said:

I thought these words would never ever enter the forum... but.... triple Punishers flinging bombs, blowing up asteroids and launching Torpedoes. I dont think 3 aces can kill a Punisher in one turn, but it does sadden me that the meta is starting  to form and it isn't great. It harkens back to the days of Triple JM5K's.

yeah ord'nance is a bad fit for the game. its either useless (weaker or equal to a base attack) or too powerful. its worth noting that dog fighting in real life ended when Air to Air guided missles became a reality, and 1.0 ended when missiles became viable too

7 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

yeah ord'nance is a bad fit for the game. its either useless (weaker or equal to a base attack) or too powerful. its worth noting that dog fighting in real life ended when Air to Air guided missles became a reality, and 1.0 ended when missiles became viable too

Um, you do realize how incredibly false your statement about dogfighting is, right? They added a gun to the Phantom because it turned out they needed it. I don't mind opinions on our little make believe game, but reality has actual facts.

Real life aside, I do agree that four-dice ordnance is incredibly polarizing as either useless or way too good

In fact, I thought that one of the FIRST things ffg would do with the spot would be to scale ordnance costs according to intiative. because it's blantantly obvious how much better TL ordnance is when you move after the opponent (and then TL his ***)

So, not terribly happy about that.

Ito game design, I much prefer either Barrage Rockets (conditional bettrr-than-primaries but not four dice) or Homing Missiles/APTs/prockets with their potential incredible damage with very stringent conditions

Only things that should be four+ dice at range 3 are ion ordnance, imo

Oh well. We can just bump up proton Torp costs and drop costs on prockets/ion torps (and ion pulse missiles imo, really should be 2 points max

Then we could introduce more control ordnance like a new flechette torps (four dice; use ole Flechette cannon effect), seismic torps (like charges, but you spend a lock on an obstacle to blow it up), etc