So listening to the S&V podcast they brought up a point as FFG tries to find a happy compromise between 2nd edition and extended and that is the Hyperspace format (which is not in the app yet but that is for another post). The idea is that only a selection of extended ships and all of 2.0 are tournament legal. However the point was brought up that could make for some models to be unplayable for a year. So potentially no Assault Gunboats they are not in or no M3A-scyks. I think there is a better solution than what ships are in and what are out.

Instead of a selection of ships, why not just curate the legal list to only a single pilot of the ships from extended (unique or non unique) and the rest of the pilots are banned, similar to the Playing Favorites variant. Worried about K-wings, then instead of letting Miranda be on the list only have Esege Tuketu. Trying to balance out that E-wing, Corran Horn could be the only E-wing pilot. The idea is that each model is still playable in Hyperspace because to be blunt the model is what holds all the value of these products, not cards or cardboard. So we can have it set up that there is no Rebel Z-95s as long as the Bynaree pilot is legal. So having Scum Z-95s playable and rebel ones on ice is okay because the model still has some gameplay options.

What are your thoughts on Hyperspace formats and legal and non-legal models?

It's not what I really want for the format. Hopefully, knock on wood, the devs can properly balance things so that bans won't be necessary. However, I do expect to see alt formats with some ships banned, or homebrew formats.

I think you missed a key bit of info, which is that Hyperspace isn't the only OP format that is going to be used. It's a replacement for the failed concept that was 2nd edition format (failed because Resistance and First Order will only have 1 ship each without their conversion kits). Extended format is still going to be used for System Opens and likely for a lot of store kit tournaments at least at stores that don't want to alienate players with the Hyperspace banlist. Note that Wave Championships (formerly Store Championship) are going to have their own special banlist that isn't Hyperspace or Extended but instead focused around whatever the newest releases are.

There are basically 2 factions at play here. The extended crowd, and the smaller but vocal 2nd edition only crowd. IMO, turning the limited number of Hyperspace events into sort-of but not really Extended (via OP's suggestion) will just piss everyone off because then nobody is getting what they want.

5 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

I think you missed a key bit of info, which is that Hyperspace isn't the only OP format that is going to be used. It's a replacement for the failed concept that was 2nd edition format (failed because Resistance and First Order will only have 1 ship each without their conversion kits). Extended format is still going to be used for System Opens and likely for a lot of store kit tournaments at least at stores that don't want to alienate players with the Hyperspace banlist. Note that Wave Championships (formerly Store Championship) are going to have their own special banlist that isn't Hyperspace or Extended but instead focused around whatever the newest releases are.

There are basically 2 factions at play here. The extended crowd, and the smaller but vocal 2nd edition only crowd. IMO, turning the limited number of Hyperspace events into sort-of but not really Extended will just piss everyone off because then nobody is getting what they want.

I suspect that as the hyperspace season nears, kits will be in hyperspace format.

6 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

IMO, turning the limited number of Hyperspace events into sort-of but not really Extended will just piss everyone off because then nobody is getting what they want.

Actually, the 2nd edition crowd does get what they want: they wanted each faction to have ship parity, and since resistance/FO isn't getting many immediate reprints, second edition "plus" fixes that.

6 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Actually, the 2nd edition crowd does get what they want: they wanted each faction to have ship parity, and since resistance/FO isn't getting many immediate reprints, second edition "plus" fixes that.

I was talking about OP's suggestion of having every ship available in Hyperspace with limited pilot options.

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I suspect that as the hyperspace season nears, kits will be in hyperspace format.

That's a good point, I guess we should expect to see seasons where pre-Hyperspace trials will see a lot of Hyperspace and then post-Hyperspace trials will see more extended play.

I wish ffg would have waited until they had a list before announcing that there would be another format.

I initially thought that they were planning on having entry level events like gencon.

So now I'm not sure if they want to have votes on cards or ships.

Got to be honest, the “limited ship” format (calling it that because who knows exactly how it will work yet) is not appealing to me.

I plan to stick to extended format as much as possible.

13 hours ago, Tvboy said:

I think you missed a key bit of info, which is that Hyperspace isn't the only OP format that is going to be used. It's a replacement for the failed concept that was 2nd edition format (failed because Resistance and First Order will only have 1 ship each without their conversion kits). Extended format is still going to be used for System Opens and likely for a lot of store kit tournaments at least at stores that don't want to alienate players with the Hyperspace banlist. Note that Wave Championships (formerly Store Championship) are going to have their own special banlist that isn't Hyperspace or Extended but instead focused around whatever the newest releases are.

There are basically 2 factions at play here. The extended crowd, and the smaller but vocal 2nd edition only crowd. IMO, turning the limited number of Hyperspace events into sort-of but not really Extended (via OP's suggestion) will just piss everyone off because then nobody is getting what they want.

Yeah having a format where all factions only have 1-3 ships makes for a rather terrible format. There was a reason why I waited until the end of Wave 3 before I got into X-wing. I still believe that they can keep all ships while keeping to potentially meta breaking combinations out until the rest of the factions catch up. But I never have been a fan of banlists. I like more of a handicap mechanic to reel in those combos that shoot way over the power curve (similar to the most wanted list that was made for the late Android Netrunner). Now certain cards, sure they can be banned but the models should have a game play option available, just might not be the most powerful one (i.e. Esegee instead of Maranda).

10 hours ago, reqent said:

I wish ffg would have waited until they had a list before announcing that there would be another format.

I initially thought that they were planning on having entry level events like gencon.

So now I'm not sure if they want to have votes on cards or ships.

I would expect FFG to use to formats as tests to see where each ship should be costed before a wave release. I don't want to bring this up again but also we need the mode to be in an App update (along with a lot of fixes) because if the Hyperspace format is not on the app then that is a big ball drop. But back to Hyperspace format and formats in general. I think it is reasonable to assume that eventually 2.0 extended, and whatever the tournament format OP is using will all be merged into one. Now will that come in wave 12 or wave 20 (or maybe even wave 8 is FFG is a psychotic sociopath) it is hard to tell.

Hyperspace format can't come soon enough, I'm getting sick to the back teeth of Extended already. The design/costing mistakes are horrendous... I mean are there more than a dozen good pilots in Extended, let alone ships?

Most people don't see it because they're still in the honeymoon period of everyone just mucking about and trying to work out what's good. But when you DO work out what's good you realise there sure as **** isn't a lot of it.

Gah, Extended. Just get rid of the lot and lets get to Hyperspace with actual fun ships ASAP please!

Yeah, there are very few pilots that can still easily provide double modifications for their own shots and they are doing extremely well. At least they appear to have considered theme with Boba and Han gunner being so strong?

Anyway, a couple points

1.) there are two periods of Hyperspace Trials each year

2.) each period has new squad building requirements

So, if your favorite ship is banned in the first, it may not be in the second. I am also disappointed that we will not be allowed to use all of our ships,but even more so that we haven't even been given the first theme list yet. Once that drops, we finally get an idea of what kind of theme/restrictions they have in mind. That will be a busy day.

To say something nice, I do believe that this will at least make trying to judge the hyperspace metas a little more challenging than just reviewing top lists from listfortress. It will shake things up and honestly sounds kind of fun if you enjoy list building and tinkering.

It could also very easily magnify some of the poor decisions made in balancing 2.0 though. All it takes is "accidentally missing" one tumor that needs to sell well or just not reviewing the options well enough and suddenly that unbalanced ship/card/combo is the biggest problem in Hyperspace. Maybe worse than it ever would have been in extended where it had more natural predators.

2 hours ago, SOTL said:

Hyperspace format can't come soon enough, I'm getting sick to the back teeth of Extended already. The design/costing mistakes are horrendous... I mean are there more than a dozen good pilots in Extended, let alone ships?

Most people don't see it because they're still in the honeymoon period of everyone just mucking about and trying to work out what's good. But when you DO work out what's good you realise there sure as **** isn't a lot of it.

Gah, Extended. Just get rid of the lot and lets get to Hyperspace with actual fun ships ASAP please!

On the other hand, do you really expect they will ban iconic characters like let's say Boba Fett, Han Solo or Darth Vader from Hyperspace?

If they don't, you're back to the same problem except with less solutions.

For veteran players: How much of your collection do you ACTUALLY use at high level competition during what will be a Hyperspace Trial season?

Im going to guess it’s very little. From a certain point of view, restrictions increase your options because they force you to consider parts of your collection you don’t normally use.

Again, are you really so attached to a particular ship/pilot that not using them would ruin the game for you? Despite the fact that I’m sure you own plenty of other ships that rarely see table time?

Finally, restrictions are first and foremost there to make the cost of entry manageable to new players. Sure. Everything being balanced helps. But even if everything is perfectly balanced, access to more options puts veteran players at an advantage over new players. This way new players only have to focus on the ships that are available for this season, rather than buying a complete collection from the get go.

16 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

On the other hand, do you really expect they will ban iconic characters like let's say Boba Fett, Han Solo or Darth Vader from Hyperspace?

If they don't, you're back to the same problem except with less solutions.

No, but those aren't the problem pilots by and large. Han gunner can be fixed with a point adjustment, all the other stuff that's majorly a problem is on ships that likely won't be part of Hyperspace.

Basically, there's a select group of pilots from mid-late 1.0 design development who got pilot abilities that grant action economy which were fine in 1.0 when a lot of other things granted competing action economy (like FCS, PTL, K4 etc) and they didn't stick out. In 2.0 they're the only things left with action economy and are just lording it over the rest of the game. There's not many of those that are likely to be in Hyperspace, with the exception of the ones that can take Han gunner.

1 hour ago, SOTL said:

No, but those aren't the problem pilots by and large. Han gunner can be fixed with a point adjustment, all the other stuff that's majorly a problem is on ships that likely won't be part of Hyperspace.

Basically, there's a select group of pilots from mid-late 1.0 design development who got pilot abilities that grant action economy which were fine in 1.0 when a lot of other things granted competing action economy (like FCS, PTL, K4 etc) and they didn't stick out. In 2.0 they're the only things left with action economy and are just lording it over the rest of the game. There's not many of those that are likely to be in Hyperspace, with the exception of the ones that can take Han gunner.

I think you greatly underestimate how much one would need to increase the cost of Han gunner until it stops being stapled to Boba, but I largely agree with the rest of your points. IMO, the key to competitiveness in 2.0 is how much 1.0-ness you can cram into your 2.0 list (mainly action stacking and action-less mods). I'm pretty sure 2 of the main culprits in this regard (Boba+Han and Supernatural Vader) are unlikely to ever go away from Hyperspace.

1 hour ago, WAC47 said:

Again, are you really so attached to a particular ship/pilot that not using them would ruin the game for you? Despite the fact that I’m sure you own plenty of other ships that rarely see table time?

Some less competitive players that still go to tournaments are, in my experience at least.

Then there's also the potential issue of what you own. Not everybody owns everything, so it is theoretically possible for one such player to simply not have the components for a legal Hyperspace squad.

4 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Some less competitive players that still go to tournaments are, in my experience at least.

Then there's also the potential issue of what you own. Not everybody owns everything, so it is theoretically possible for one such player to simply not have the components for a legal Hyperspace squad.

If that’s the case I’m definitely sympathetic to that person’s plight! At this point we don’t know HOW many ships will be allowed, but I would imagine the restrictions won’t be so severe that this is very common.

I could definitely be wrong, but at this point we don’t have a lot of information and are operating on a lot of hypotheticals.

1 hour ago, LordBlades said:

I think you greatly underestimate how much one would need to increase the cost of Han gunner until it stops being stapled to Boba, but I largely agree with the rest of your points. IMO, the key to competitiveness in 2.0 is how much 1.0-ness you can cram into your 2.0 list (mainly action stacking and action-less mods). I'm pretty sure 2 of the main culprits in this regard (Boba+Han and Supernatural Vader) are unlikely to ever go away from Hyperspace.

Some less competitive players that still go to tournaments are, in my experience at least.

Then there's also the potential issue of what you own. Not everybody owns everything, so it is theoretically possible for one such player to simply not have the components for a legal Hyperspace squad.

Maybe? I think Han should cost 10-12.

57 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Maybe? I think Han should cost 10-12.

Even at 12 points (which might very well be a fair price for what Han does), I still think it would be the default option for Boba by far. A 10-12 point Han and 0-0-0 (13-15 points) looks roughly equivalent to the current Han+Perceptive Co-pilot (14 points) , which is still an extremely good build.

4 hours ago, LordBlades said:

On the other hand, do you really expect they will ban iconic characters like let's say Boba Fett, Han Solo or Darth Vader from Hyperspace?

If they don't, you're back to the same problem except with less solutions.

Considering those are all in 2nd edition it is unlikely. Hyperspace does seem to be the format between the very anemic 2nd edition and extended format.

3 hours ago, WAC47 said:

For veteran players: How much of your collection do you ACTUALLY use at high level competition during what will be a Hyperspace Trial season?

Im going to guess it’s very little. From a certain point of view, restrictions increase your options because they force you to consider parts of your collection you don’t normally use.

Again, are you really so attached to a particular ship/pilot that not using them would ruin the game for you? Despite the fact that I’m sure you own plenty of other ships that rarely see table time?

Finally, restrictions are first and foremost there to make the cost of entry manageable to new players. Sure. Everything being balanced helps. But even if everything is perfectly balanced, access to more options puts veteran players at an advantage over new players. This way new players only have to focus on the ships that are available for this season, rather than buying a complete collection from the get go.

I try to use every ship at least once. Granted I got a bit of a backlog but still would be nice to have.

I understand the new player problem that is what 2nd edition format was all about but lets face it, it is unlikely 2nd edition brought back fresh players as much as they brought back returning players who were disenfranchised with the later waves. Most of the newer players came in before 2nd edition was announced. So their selection of ships is already limited. Hyperspace format with ship bans will have that wired vein diagram effect of ships that a player has and ships that are legal which will make more of a NPE experience for newer players as they find hyperspace even more restrictive to the selection of ships they have AND are tournament legal.

Now as the game progresses and more factions and more expansions are released for 2nd edition this will likely become less of a problem and we will see more newer players that started after 2nd edition was released. So yeah the new player problem will evolve. Will that solve the current new player problem we have? Replacing a problem with another problem still leaves a problem to fix.

1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

I try to use every ship at least once. Granted I got a bit of a backlog but still would be nice to have.

I understand the new player problem that is what 2nd edition format was all about but lets face it, it is unlikely 2nd edition brought back fresh players as much as they brought back returning players who were disenfranchised with the later waves. Most of the newer players came in before 2nd edition was announced. So their selection of ships is already limited. Hyperspace format with ship bans will have that wired vein diagram effect of ships that a player has and ships that are legal which will make more of a NPE experience for newer players as they find hyperspace even more restrictive to the selection of ships they have AND are tournament legal.

Now as the game progresses and more factions and more expansions are released for 2nd edition this will likely become less of a problem and we will see more newer players that started after 2nd edition was released. So yeah the new player problem will evolve. Will that solve the current new player problem we have? Replacing a problem with another problem still leaves a problem to fix.

I try to use every ship at least once too, but not at high level competitive events over a six month period. If you do that, I’m very impressed!

Our local group has seen a significant influx of new players, so this problem is relevant now for us. And even people who are getting back into the game with second edition likely have a relatively limited ship pool.

Considering all the announced concern from some more or less loud members of the forums, I believe FFG will at least block: I1 tugboats, Redline, Juke, Sloane, etc. They will probably keep all models legal, but certain pilots and upgrades will be blocked. Either that or certain upgrades and pilots--exclusively for the format--will be astronomically expensive so as to be cost-prohibitive except for edgy memelords willing to go 1-5, i.e. Luke Gunner.

After a couple of local polls, my impression is that people want extended, and that participation at any non-extended tournament would be much lower. Some people have flatly stated that they'll pass on any such event.

2 hours ago, Okapi said:

After a couple of local polls, my impression is that people want extended, and that participation at any non-extended tournament would be much lower. Some people have flatly stated that they'll pass on any such event.

Good they can quit then. Good riddance.

9 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Good they can quit then. Good riddance.

On the other hand, if there are enough people who think like that, they don't have to quit. They can run their own unofficial tournaments.

Also, if enough people think like that, FFG will likely have to back down.

2 hours ago, SOTL said:

Good they can quit then. Good riddance.

Holy crap, what a great attitude to bring in more players, are you taking notes FFG? The 2.0 only mindset is to exclude players rather than be inclusive. I would avoid 2.0 only events just to avoid bitter salt-lords like this guy. And it won't hurt me either because Extended will be the preference for a majority of players.