Rosie Cotton, Destroyer of Worlds: a Thought Experiment

By Some Sort, in The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game

Thought experiment: Just how high can you pump Rosie Cotton's attack power?

Rules:

1. Assume you are using one deck, which means no more than 3 heroes and no more than 3 copies of each card. The deck can be as large as you'd like, though.

2. No saga or encounter cards may be used, though player encounter cards are fine. Exception: you're free to assume there is one Eastern Crow in staging, one engaged with you, and one engaged with another player just to give you your choice of targets.

3. Assume that you've been playing the quest for arbitrarily long and have set everything up exactly to your liking. This means any number of cards in hand, any number of cards in play, any number of cards in your deck (in any order-- assume you just dropped a Gandalf's Search), any number of resources, any threat level, etc.

4. No using cards whose bonuses are potentially unlimited. This means no Keeping Count, no Lay of Nimrodel or Gondorian Fire, etc.

5. No Grave Cairn, just because.

6. No recurring any cards from your discard pile, because otherwise this becomes a game of "pick your favorite infinite loop". I'll make an exception for 3x Lords of the Eldar, because that's the only way to play it.

I've got an answer that I think is fairly optimized, but I'll hold off a couple days before posting it in case anyone else wants to give it a shot first.

Edit: @sappidus reminds me that Grave Cairn only counts printed attack, so it's back on the table. I mostly just didn't want to turn this into a dwarf-counting exercise.

Edit #2: a much simpler way of stating rule #6 is that no card can be played more than 3 times except for Courage Awakened / Noiseless Movement / etc, which can be played four times. (Because otherwise you just infinitely loop your attack buff of choice.)

Edited by Some Sort

I did just runthrough of the cardpool, so I could optimize this a bit more, but is your answer above or below 6,000?

I'm well below that. If you're hitting 6,000 without recycling cards then you thought of something I didn't.

How many readying effects are in the game? Since Rosie with Sword-Thain can exhuast to add her willpower to her own willpower, she can double her willpower with every exhaust. Only the final exhaust is needed to add her willpower to the attack. With just Sword-Thain, three copies of Favor of the Lady, three Unexpected Courages and three Fast Hitches she can get her attack to ridiculous portions:

Exhaust to add willpower -- 10

UC, exhaust to add willpower -- 20

UC, exhaust to add willpower -- 40

UC, exhaust to add willpower -- 80

FH, exhaust to add willpower -- 160

FH, exhaust to add willpower -- 320

FH, exhaust to add to attack -- 322

To break 6000 just needs 5 more readies, and that's without bumping her initial willpower past 5 -- there's *lots* of cards that can increase her willpower.

13 minutes ago, dalestephenson said:

Since Rosie with Sword-Thain can exhuast to add her willpower to her own willpower, she can double her willpower with every exhaust.

Rosie's effect is once per phase.

Rosie-Cotton.jpg

Whoops, missed that once per phase bit. My new number is just 216 ?

Edit: +15 more if Grave Cairn is allowed

Edited by Seastan

Rosie nerfed! What's she supposed to do with only 216 attack? I suppose with all those fast hitches she can kill a lot of bosses.

What we need is Hobbit-Friend, so we can have the biggest-ever Heavy Stroke.

@Seastan Hah, I knew that either you were missing something or else I was missing something. Figured the smart money was on me missing something. :)

Without much in the way of spoilers, it’s possible to do much better than 216 / 231 with grave cairn.

@Some Sort After scrapping my readying strategy I neglected to add some other stuff back in. I'm now around 1000.

Edited by Seastan

@Some Sort Do me a favor and don't release a solution for several days. I have a somewhat complicated mechanism that I'm not sure I'll be able to hammer out before the end of the weekend.

No sweat.

I’m not sure if I’ve got it 100% optimized, but I do know I still have Seastan beat. :)

I'm now around 1600. I think to get over 2000 I'd need a significant new idea.

I think we're largely in the same place. I've found a couple extra points I could squeeze out, but I'm topping out at 1784.

Edit: an even 1800.

Edited by Some Sort

Does the no-recursion criterion extend to previous rounds? i.e., there can never be a point previous to the current round during which I've returned a card in the discard pile to the deck, my hand, or into play?

12 hours ago, sappidus said:

Does the no-recursion criterion extend to previous rounds? i.e., there can never be a point previous to the current round during which I've returned a card in the discard pile to the deck, my hand, or into play?

Not really sure where you're going with this, but color me curious. I can't think of any reason why that wouldn't be okay, so I say this is fine. (But if allowing this leads to some sort of infinite or near-infinite loop that trivializes the challenge, then no.)

29 minutes ago, Some Sort said:

Not really sure where you're going with this, but color me curious. I can't think of any reason why that wouldn't be okay, so I say this is fine. (But if allowing this leads to some sort of infinite or near-infinite loop that trivializes the challenge, then no.)

OK, cool. I don't know if it'll be needed for my stab at this, but it is definitely possible to display permanent board states that can only be created in true solo through the (prior) use of recursion, so. Just wanted to be sure it didn't violate the spirit of your no-arbitrary-loops provisos.

Smells like a Rosie errata coming soon...

3 hours ago, Lecitadin said:

Smells like a Rosie errata coming soon...

I doubt it. If you really want to get Rosie an arbitrarily large sum of attack, go for it. It's not about to warp the meta; nobody would consistently play this type of deck in a group. Maybe once, solo, just to do it once.

And then there's this: :)

On 10/17/2018 at 2:44 PM, Some Sort said:

3. Assume that you've been playing the quest for arbitrarily long and have set everything up exactly to your liking. This means any number of cards in hand, any number of cards in play, any number of cards in your deck (in any order-- assume you just dropped a Gandalf's Search), any number of resources, any threat level, etc.

1 hour ago, Wandalf the Gizzard said:

I doubt it. If you really want to get Rosie an arbitrarily large sum of attack, go for it. It's not about to warp the meta; nobody would consistently play this type of deck in a group. Maybe once, solo, just to do it once.

And then there's this: :)

I have a deck with every single card in the game. I have drawn them all in hand, with 1000 resources on every hero. My threat level is 0. What's the highest attack I can get on Rosie?

1 hour ago, Wandalf the Gizzard said:

I doubt it. If you really want to get Rosie an arbitrarily large sum of attack, go for it. It's not about to warp the meta; nobody would consistently play this type of deck in a group. Maybe once, solo, just to do it once.

And then there's this: :)

Additionally, the deck required to pull off my current solution would need to be a minimum of 269 cards. (And also getting 4-digit attack values isn't really a practical use of resources.)

6 minutes ago, Network57 said:

I have a deck with every single card in the game. I have drawn them all in hand, with 1000 resources on every hero. My threat level is 0. What's the highest attack I can get on Rosie?

If you take away the limits I set at the top, this is going to be stupidly arbitrarily large.

Just off the top of my head, if you go with this scenario and remove all the other limitations I set in the opening post, I managed to get Rosie's attack over 500,000,000. I could easily break a billion with just five minutes spent optimizing. Completely optimized I'd wager this is in the tens or even hundreds of billions.

Assuming a reasonable amount of resources each round, how long would it take to set up 269 cards?! XD

Do you mind plotting a curve of the development of her attack power each round? :)

Anyway, I am curious what cards/combinations you guys did dig out!

Alright, here's what I've got:

Starting board state: 19 threat, 3 eastern crows in staging, Rally the West in the victory display

Heroes: Galadriel / Elfhelm / Elrond

Allies in Play:

  • Rosie
  • Faramir with Born Aloft attached
  • Saruman with Born Aloft attached
  • Gandalf with Narya, Wizard Pipe, and Born Aloft attached
  • Sulien
  • Eagles of the Misty Mountain with 23 eagles underneath (3x Vassal of the Windlord, 3x Winged Guardian, 3x Descendent of Thorondir, 3x Gwaihir, 3x Landroval, 3x Meneldor, 3x Eagle of the North, 2x Eagle of the Misty Mountain)
  • 3x Westfold Horse-breakers
  • 1x Henemarth Riversong
  • 2x Westfold Outrider


Attached to Rosie:

  • 1x Sword-thain
  • 1x Elf-friend, In Service of the Steward, Nor Am I a Stranger, Mighty Warrior, Doughty Ranger, Diligent Noble, Fearless Scout (granting Hero / Noldor / Silvan / Gondor / Rohan / Warrior / Ranger / Noble / Scout traits)
  • 1x Dunedain Signal (grants Sentinel)
  • 1x Fireside Song
  • 23x Extra Songs: 3x Travel, 3x Wisdom, 3x Battle, 3x Kings, 3x Mocking, 3x Earendil, 1x Hope, 1x Fall of Gil-Galad, 1x Day's Rising (requires sentinel from Dunedain Signal), 1x To the Sea!, 1x O Lorien!
  • 1x Steed of the Mark (activates Elfhelm bonus)
  • 1x Hobbit Pipe
  • 1x Rivendell Bow (grants Ranged)
  • 3x Fast Hitch
  • 3x Spare Hood and Cloak
  • 3x Blood of Numenor
  • 1x The Arkenstone
  • 1x Red Arrow
  • 1x Black Arrow (thanks to Rivendell Bow)
  • 1x Celebrian's Stone (restricted)
  • 1x Herugrim (restricted)


Attached to Galadriel:

  • 1x Nenya
  • 1x In Service of the Steward, Nor Am I a Stranger, Elf-friend (Noldor, Silvan, Gondor, Rohan)
  • 1x Star Brooch
  • 1x Windfola (restricted)
  • 1x Mirkwood Long-knife (thanks to Elf-friend, restricted)
  • 1x Song of Hope
  • 1x Visionary Leadership (thanks to In Service of the Steward)


Attached to Elrond:

  • 1x Vilya
  • 1x Sword that was Broken (for leadership icon)

Attached to Elfhelm:

  • Nothing lol


Play Bartering on Rosie's Sword-thain. Rosie loses the hero type but retains all attachments.


Play Sword-thain on Faramir. Then attach:

  • 3x Unexpected Courage
  • 3x Cram
  • 3x Miruvor
  • 3x Lembas
  • 1x Magic Ring
  • 1x Steed of the Mark
  • 1x Steed of the North (restricted)
  • 1x Snowmane (restricted)
  • 1x Wingfoot (Henemarth ensures a correct guess)
  • 1x Heir of Mardil / Steward of Gondor
  • 1x Dunedain Signal
  • 1x Elvenking
  • 1x Born Aloft
  • 1x Song of Hope (for Burst Into Song)


Use Parting Gifts to move a resource from Elrond to Faramir


Begin the quest phase. Peek at the top of the encounter deck with Henemarth. Commit to the quest with Rosie and Faramir. Use Wingfoot to declare whatever card type Henemarth saw. Ready Rosie with Fast Hitch. Then start readying and exhausting Faramir.

  • 1x from Steed of the Mark (with the resource from Elrond)
  • 3x from Unexpected Courage
  • 3x from Cram
  • 3x from Miruvor
  • 3x from Lembas
  • 3x from The White Council
  • 3x from Elwing's Flight (first copy targets Faramir, second Faramir/Rosie, 3rd Faramir/Rosie/Rosie)
  • 3x from Hold Your Ground (Dunedain Signal makes him a valid target)
  • 3x from Common Cause (ready Rosie with one fast hitch, use Galadriel / Elrond for the other two)
  • 3x from Grim Resolve
  • 3x from Burst Into Song
  • 3x from West-fold Horsebreaker
  • 3x from Timely Aiding in Greenwood Archers
  • 4x from Swift and Silent
  • 1x from Magic Ring (raising threat to 20)
  • 1x from Heir of Mardil (triggered with Steward)
  • 1x from Elvenking (pull back Henemarth)
  • 1x from Wingfoot (after staging)
  • 1x from Snowmane (after quest resolution)
  • 1x from Steed of the North (discard Westfold Outrider to pull an Eastern Crow to trigger)

Use Bartering to remove Sword-thain. Trigger Born Aloft to return Faramir to hand. Use Wizard Pipe to put Sword-thain on top of your deck. Trigger Elrond/Vilya to put it on Rosie. Ready Rosie with her second Fast Hitch.
Sneak Attack Faramir. Exhaust and ready him some more:

  • 1x - natural exhaust
  • 6x - exhaust Rosie to pass a Spare Hood and Cloak, ready Rosie after with Tale of Tinuviel from Sulien, ready Sulien and Faramir again with The Free Peoples, repeat three times. (Rosie satisfies the 9-trait requirement for Free Peoples all by herself.)
  • 3x - To Arms! (Spare Hood and Cloak fulfils the trigger)
  • 1x - Narya (on Gandalf)
  • 3x - Ever Vigilant

Play Bulwark of the West on Faramir (discard a Blood of Numenor from Rosie), then play Rallying Cry to pull him back to hand. Play Good Harvest and name "Leadership". Time to exhaust Faramir some more!

  • 2x - Sneak Attack Faramir / Bulwark of the West / Rallying Cry to pull back to hand
  • 6x - Reinforcements to bring Faramir and Eomund. Exhaust Faramir, play Mutual Accord, discard Eomund to Ride to Ruin, ready Faramir, exhaust Faramir again, discard Faramir to Rear Guard. (Repeat 3 times using all three copies of Faramir.)

Total net = 69 exhausts of Faramir = +69 Willpower to Galadriel and Rosie

Play 3x Pursuing the Enemy to get rid of the Greenwood Archers.
Trigger Born Aloft to get rid of Gandalf.
Trigger Born Aloft to get rid of Saruman, playing Grave Cairn 3x in response for +15 attack on Rosie.
Exhaust all three Support of the Eagles to add EotMM's 25 attack to Rosie's three times. Play Meneldor's Flight to return EotMM to hand.

Trigger your final Westfold Outrider to pull another Eastern Crow, trigger Captain of Gondor in response.

You're left with Elrond, Galadriel, Elfhelm, Rosie, and Sulien in play, turning on Strider's +2 WP bonus.


Galadriel's Willpower is:

  • (+4 WP) : Base
  • (+69 WP): Faramir
  • (+1 WP) : Visionary Leadership
  • (+3 WP) : The Free Peoples
  • (+1 WP) : Rally the West
  • (+1 WP) : Star Brooch
  • (+1 WP) : Windfola
  • (+1 WP) : Elfhelm bonus
  • (+1 WP) : Mirkwood Long-knife
  • (+1 WP) : The Arkenstone
  • (+3 WP) : Song of Hope

Additionally, play

  • (+3 WP) : 3x Lords of the Eldar
  • (+6 WP) : 3x Astonishing Speed (thanks to Nor Am I a Stranger)
  • (+3 WP) : 3x Captains of the West

= 98 WP total. Exhaust Nenya to add this to Rosie.


Rosie's Willpower is:

  • (+2 WP) : Natural base
  • (+69 WP): Faramir
  • (+98 WP): Galadriel/Nenya
  • (+24 WP): Fireside Song with 24 songs attached
  • (+1 WP) : Elfhelm bonus
  • (+3 WP) : Song of Hope
  • (+9 WP) : 3x Protector of Lorien
  • (+3 WP) : 3x Favor of the Lady
  • (+2 WP) : Strider
  • (+3 WP) : 3x Dunedain Quest
  • (+1 WP) : Visionary Leadership (on Galadriel)
  • (+1 WP) : Red Arrow
  • (+1 WP) : Star Brooch
  • (+1 WP) : Rally the West
  • (+2 WP) : Necklace of Girion
  • (+1 WP) : The Arkenstone
  • (+2 WP) : Celebrian's Stone

Plus, thanks to already-played events

  • (+9 WP) : 3x Tale of Tinuviel with Sulien (from the Faramir section)
  • (+3 WP) : 3x Lords of the Eldar
  • (+6 WP) : 3x Astonishing Speed
  • (+3 WP) : 3x Elwing's Flight (Faramir, Faramir/Rosie, Faramir/Rosie/Rosie)
  • (+3 WP) : 3x The Free Peoples (Rosie has 9 traits by herself)
  • (+3 WP) : 3x Rear Guard

Plus play the following events

  • (+6 WP) : 3x Halfling Determination
  • (+3 WP) : 3x Elrond's Counsel
  • (+3 WP) : 3x Smoke Rings
  • (+8 WP) : 4x Courage Awakened
  • (+3 WP) : 3x Captains of the West

=269 Willpower
Trigger Rosie on herself to double it to 538, then ready with a Fast Hitch

Rosie's attack is:

  • (+0 Att): natural base
  • (+1 Att): Captain of Gondor (triggered when Westfold Outrider pulled over a crow)
  • (+1 Att): Elfhelm bonus
  • (+3 Att): 3x Dunedain Mark
  • (+9 Att): 3x Tale of Tinuviel with Sulien
  • (+6 Att): Halfling Determination
  • (+3 Att): Lords of the Eldar
  • (+15 Att): 3x Grave Cairn after Born Aloft / Saruman
  • (+75 Att): 3x Support from the Eagles

Additionally, play:

  • (+6 Att): 3x Inspiring Presence
  • (+3 Att): 3x For Gondor
  • (+3 Att): 3x Blade Mastery
  • (+9 Att): 3x Charge of the Rohirrim

=134 Attack

Play 3x Legacy of Numenor, 3x Deep Knowledge and 2x Seeing Stone to reach 40 threat.

Play Hands Upon the Bow to declare an attack against the Eastern Crow in staging.

  • (+1 Att) : Hands Upon the Bow
  • (+538 Att): Trigger Herugrim in response
  • (+5 Att) : Discard Black Arrow

Play a Valour Open the Armory. Pull an Elven-spear, discard Herugrim.

  • (+3 Att) : Elven-spear

Play a Valour Open the Armory. Pull an Elven-spear, discard the old Elven-spear.

  • (+3 Att) : Elven-spear

Play a Valour Open the Armory. Pull a Mirkwood Long-knife, discard Elven-spear.

  • (+1 Att) : Mirkwood Long-knife. (Also bumps WP to 539.)

Play 2x Galadhrim's Greetings to drop threat to 28, then play

  • (+9 Att) : 3x Unseen Strike
  • (+539 Att): Fair and Perilous
  • (+539 Att): Fair and Perilous
  • (+539 Att): Fair and Perilous

= 2311 total attack

(Speculative: is it possible to play two more Hands Upon the Bow for an additional +2 attack, bringing you to 2313? Am unsure.)

High-quality jank that didn't make the cut:
Originally I included Tom Cotton and played all of Rosie's stuff in one planning phase to give her Friend of Friends and Cotton's +2 attack bonus.

At one point I replaced Tom Cotton with Sam Gamgee and used Desperate Alliance to pass away Galadriel, opening up Strength of Arms to ready Faramir three more times.

At one point I committed Rosie to the quest alone so I could trigger Scouting Party three times, then used Late Adventurer to commit Faramir (to take advantage of Elwing's Flight) and Ally Arwen (to give Faramir sentinel). This got scrapped once I switched to Sword-thaining Faramir.

At one point I was unsure of how Herugrim worked and whether it would be legal to bring in another copy using Open the Armory, declare another attack with Hands Upon the Bow, then trigger it again for another bonus. (I don't think this works, but if it does we should be able to get over 3,000 attack.)

At one point I considered ending the sequence by Bartering away Rosie's Sword-thain again to activate Sword of Morthond + Outlands bonus, but you lose more buffs by losing Hero status than you gain by gaining Outlands status.

Anyone see any errors? Anything I overlooked that can push this even higher?

Edited by Some Sort

Bartering is a planning action, isn't it?

7 minutes ago, Seastan said:

Bartering is a planning action, isn't it?

It is. But I don't think he needs it in the Quest phase…? He can just Born Aloft Faramir and Vilya in a Sword-Thain pre-set on top of his deck (not a Bartered and Wizard Pipe'd copy), unless I'm missing something.