In Imperial Assault skirmish, they added this rule after it was clear that having more activations than your opponent was a huge advantage:

“During a skirmish, if a player has fewer ready Deployment cards than his opponent, that player may choose not to activate a group and pass play back to his opponent.”

After implementing this rule, activation advantage became much less of a thing.

In Legion, activation advantage is still a huge factor and every time it comes up in a game I wonder why there isn't just a pass rule...

"On his turn, if a player has fewer un-activated units than his opponent, that player may choose to not activate a unit and pass play back to his opponent."

How would that not improve the game?

The only problem I have with this, is if you’re eliminating a lot of units, you should have an advantage and out-activate. I think they just need to make the more expensive units in general better. That would make low activation armies more playable

16 minutes ago, Rogue Dakotan said:

In Imperial Assault skirmish, they added this rule after it was clear that having more activations than your opponent was a huge advantage:

“During a skirmish, if a player has fewer ready Deployment cards than his opponent, that player may choose not to activate a group and pass play back to his opponent.”

After implementing this rule, activation advantage became much less of a thing.

In Legion, activation advantage is still a huge factor and every time it comes up in a game I wonder why there isn't just a pass rule...

"On his turn, if a player has fewer un-activated units than his opponent, that player may choose to not activate a unit and pass play back to his opponent."

How would that not improve the game?

Wow that is interesting I never thought of it that way I have to think about it some more.?

2 minutes ago, lukecook said:

The only problem I have with this, is if you’re eliminating a lot of units, you should have an advantage and out-activate. I think they just need to make the more expensive units in general better. That would make low activation armies more playable

Yeah so maybe Vader and snow troopers and scouts and Maybe some Speeder bikes or an ATST That would make a lower activation army right.?????????????

6 minutes ago, LordBubba said:

Yeah so maybe Vader and snow troopers and scouts and Maybe some Speeder bikes or an ATST That would make a lower activation army right.?????????????

Lol what? AT-ST hasn’t won a major event since I believe Gencon so there’s that

(Caveat, I have not playtested this in Legion so am simply giving ideas/opinions based on my experiences in Bolt Action where the activations are randomized between sides, so one player can sometimes end up with multiple activations in a row in the middle of a turn)

Well, for one thing it doesn't fix one of the major advantages of having more activations: having more unit leaders. Unit leaders are what matter for scoring, so (obviously) having more of them means you can better contest/claim objectives. For instance, in Breakthrough, if both sides get all of their unit leaders into the other deployment zone, the side with more activations wins. Intercept the Transmissions and Key Positions also care about number of unit leaders/infantry unit leaders for claiming purposes, so the side with more activations still has an advantage in 3/5 objectives.

Another thing is that giving your opponent multiple activations in a row is (in my opinion) a BAD idea. You already have fewer units left to activate, now your opponent has more opportunities to add pins to your trooper units prior to your activation, potentially causing them to Panic. Passing is essentially giving your opponent a more powerful version of Leia's "Somebody has to save our skins" since it removes the limitation from the card , and doesn't require a command card. All you're really doing is changing when in the turn your opponent gets to activate lots of units back to back. The units activated at the end of the turn are likely to be those units which for one reason or another are least likely to impact the game (either through number of suppression counters, damaged vehicles, or few remaining models).

If you have fewer activations than your opponent then your units should be more effective/durable. Your opponent can't activate units that have been destroyed after all, and if your army is more effective at destroying units, then you can quickly whittle away at their activation count with concentrated fire.

I would worry that passing would cause balance issues and I would argue that as we learn how to use the Standby action better, it can basically serve as a "pass" so standby really helps IMO

5 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

(Caveat, I have not playtested this in Legion so am simply giving ideas/opinions based on my experiences in Bolt Action where the activations are randomized between sides, so one player can sometimes end up with multiple activations in a row in the middle of a turn)

Well, for one thing it doesn't fix one of the major advantages of having more activations: having more unit leaders. Unit leaders are what matter for scoring, so (obviously) having more of them means you can better contest/claim objectives. For instance, in Breakthrough, if both sides get all of their unit leaders into the other deployment zone, the side with more activations wins. Intercept the Transmissions and Key Positions also care about number of unit leaders/infantry unit leaders for claiming purposes, so the side with more activations still has an advantage in 3/5 objectives.

Another thing is that giving your opponent multiple activations in a row is (in my opinion) a BAD idea. You already have fewer units left to activate, now your opponent has more opportunities to add pins to your trooper units prior to your activation, potentially causing them to Panic. Passing is essentially giving your opponent a more powerful version of Leia's "Somebody has to save our skins" since it removes the limitation from the card , and doesn't require a command card. All you're really doing is changing when in the turn your opponent gets to activate lots of units back to back. The units activated at the end of the turn are likely to be those units which for one reason or another are least likely to impact the game (either through number of suppression counters, damaged vehicles, or few remaining models).

If you have fewer activations than your opponent then your units should be more effective/durable. Your opponent can't activate units that have been destroyed after all, and if your army is more effective at destroying units, then you can quickly whittle away at their activation count with concentrated fire.

I have played bolt action before and I do love legion and I really like your idea so I was thinking if you want a lot of activations I’ll probably go with the Veers and lots of storm troopers and all three speeder bikes and maybe a scout.

I’ll be back soon guys.?

30 minutes ago, LordBubba said:

I have played bolt action before and I do love legion and I really like your idea so I was thinking if you want a lot of activations I’ll probably go with the Veers and lots of storm troopers and all three speeder bikes and maybe a scout.

I’ll be back soon guys.?

I think you might be a bit confused. He’s not asking about how to get more activations. He’s responding to the original poster’s idea of changing the activation mechanic. (Having more artivations is widely considered to be an advantage and the OP is suggesting a rule tweak that might fix that.)

53 minutes ago, clontroper5 said:

I would worry that passing would cause balance issues and I would argue that as we learn how to use the Standby action better, it can basically serve as a "pass" so standby really helps IMO

One"problem" with Standby as a pass is the limitation of range 2, and that receiving a suppression removes the Standby action. I've used the Ambush mechanic in Bolt Action a LOT, which is similar except that it can be used to shoot any enemy unit that moves if it is in range of the Ambushing unit's weapons, and your opponent can't really force you to remove the Ambush.

That's not to say that Standby isn't useful, I've used it to allow a Fleet Trooper squad to shoot at Speeder Bikes after their mandatory speed 3 movement, and shoot melee enemies after they get done killing the sacrificial unit of Rebel Troopers that are currently engaged. It might also be an interesting way of punishing a unit that disengages from a melee unit, although I don't run any of those in my current list.

I think a pass mechanic would be fantastic for this game. It would allow for a greater variety of list building options because you wouldn't need 10-11 activations just to survive those early turns. The least fun I have with this game is when the enemy has more activations than me, we alternate activating units, and then they have multiple speeder bikes left to activate. They can move really far into a flanking position and they kill an entire squad of rebel troopers without taking any return fire and there isn't anything you can do about it because they have a threat range much higher than the range on weapons.

I also think being able to pass would benefit heavy units. The airspeeder player who has less activations then the opponent because they cost 175 points each isn't forced to move the T-47 into range of multiple DLT shots on turn one.

2 hours ago, lukecook said:

The only problem I have with this, is if you’re eliminating a lot of units, you should have an advantage and out-activate. I think they just need to make the more expensive units in general better. That would make low activation armies more playable

If you are eliminating a lot of units you are way head anyway. Letting the person who is behind pass may allow for comebacks and more interesting games rather than once you start losing you keep losing. Besides whoever is ahead can just activate the units they have that aren't interacting with the enemy that turn (back field objective holders, and speeder units that need to turn around).

2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Another thing is that giving your opponent multiple activations in a row is (in my opinion) a BAD idea. You already have fewer units left to activate, now your opponent has more opportunities to add pins to your trooper units prior to your activation, potentially causing them to Panic. Passing is essentially giving your opponent a more powerful version of Leia's "Somebody has to save our skins" since it removes the limitation from the card , and doesn't require a command card. All you're really doing is changing when in the turn your opponent gets to activate lots of units back to back. The units activated at the end of the turn are likely to be those units which for one reason or another are least likely to impact the game (either through number of suppression counters, damaged vehicles, or few remaining models).

Yes but passing is optional. So if you are already in shooting range you wouldn't pass. If you aren't in range you can pass so you aren't forced to move into range of the larger army which then gets shots on you that you can't react to at all.

1 hour ago, clontroper5 said:

I would worry that passing would cause balance issues and I would argue that as we learn how to use the Standby action better, it can basically serve as a "pass" so standby really helps IMO

Standby only works in specific instances because the range is so small. once the fighting starts standby works great but it won't help on those early approach turns where you are trying to avoid moving into range of enemy fire.

1 hour ago, Gengis Jon said:

I think you might be a bit confused. He’s not asking about how to get more activations. He’s responding to the original poster’s idea of changing the activation mechanic. (Having more artivations is widely considered to be an advantage and the OP is suggesting a rule tweak that might fix that.)

? Oh I get it now.

Thanks man.?

11 minutes ago, Qark said:

Yes but passing is optional. So if you are already in shooting range you wouldn't pass. If you aren't in range you can pass so you aren't forced to move into range of the larger army which then gets shots on you that you can't react to at all.

Unless you have a speeder unit, you are never FORCED to move into range. Biding your time to move into the objectives is already part of the game.

One of the units being used for increasing activations is the sniper strike team. That's three potential activations your opponent could take that can affect your units from the other side of the board and absolutely do not want to be moving forward anyway. If the rules allowed for passing, I wouldn't be surprised if 3 snipers became the new meta. Alternately they simply move flanking units which are going to be out of line of sight/in heavy cover, their naked mobile cover AT-RT, units that were likely to move up anyway or something else until they have the same number of activations.

I'm also going to point out that Leia's "Somebody has to save our skins" would allow the rebel player to go from having the same activations remaining to having one less, granting them an ability to "pass" in addition to having had two activations in a row.

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

One"problem" with Standby as a pass is the limitation of range 2, and that receiving a suppression removes the Standby action. I've used the Ambush mechanic in Bolt Action a LOT, which is similar except that it can be used to shoot any enemy unit that moves if it is in range of the Ambushing unit's weapons, and your opponent can't really force you to remove the Ambush.

That's not to say that Standby isn't useful, I've used it to allow a Fleet Trooper squad to shoot at Speeder Bikes after their mandatory speed 3 movement, and shoot melee enemies after they get done killing the sacrificial unit of Rebel Troopers that are currently engaged. It might also be an interesting way of punishing a unit that disengages from a melee unit, although I don't run any of those in my current list.

I did like ambushing,in Bolt action better but Legions standby is still good.?

17 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Unless you have a speeder unit, you are never FORCED to move into range. Biding your time to move into the objectives is already part of the game.

You are though. As you stated this is an objective game. Key positions you could argue doesn't force you to move up until late in the game but transmissions, and supplies in particular are a race. If you don't move up the opponent will get the objectives before you and then it is very hard to come back from there. Breakthrough doesn't require you getting there early but you need to set up in those early turns so you have enough speed to make it across the board on the final turn. Moisture vaporators requires you to push unless you are playing for the draw on objectives and going for kills.

22 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

One of the units being used for increasing activations is the sniper strike team. That's three potential activations your opponent could take that can affect your units from the other side of the board and absolutely do not want to be moving forward anyway. If the rules allowed for passing, I wouldn't be surprised if 3 snipers became the new meta.

I would argue that because we can't pass 3 snipers are already the new meta. I haven't seen a list for a while that doesn't have at least 2. They are cheap and give you that extra activation specifically so your other units can delay their activations.

23 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I'm also going to point out that Leia's "Somebody has to save our skins" would allow the rebel player to go from having the same activations remaining to having one less, granting them an ability to "pass" in addition to having had two activations in a row. 

If we both have 5 and I use skins I now have 3. You go, and have 4 left, I pass so you go again I am effectively giving you your own skins. Can you elaborate on why you think this is a problem?

Having it as optional seems like a pretty good idea, it can help the player manage his fewer activations list when needed so you don't run into the 'oh I got Vader and an AtSt looks like you have 4 activations in a row at the end problem'

I think bigger/expensive units should be made better instead.

Many activations and few powerful ones should both be viable. However point costs don't change at all when it comes to unit sizes. Let's say that a heavy weapon cost 3 less points if you also have a personel upgrade.

Or give more incentive for single activations. Like a unique one shot upgrade that allows an extra attack or action for a single unit. Vader and Luke have this with command cards. Think about an airspeeder with a single double attack with the front guns. Then it might be useful going down an activation or two.

Or a unique one shot free recover action to help a unit reload it's bigger weapon and clear supression.

So it feels to me that the reason people want a pass mechanic, or to weaken trooper spam activation advantage - is because they want to play the cool 'queen' pieces, and also not be too disadvantaged to win games.

Seems like easy fix to me: change the max points to 1200 - but don't change the min-max unit requirements.

At that range I bet you'll see a lot more diverse commander/heavy/support combos. And you'll have to because 6x trooper spam even with all the upgrade toys only gets a player to 600 points. Then they have 600 points of awesomeness to pick.

Probably still won't save the airspeeder though, lol

22 minutes ago, armada439 said:

So it feels to me that the reason people want a pass mechanic, or to weaken trooper spam activation advantage - is because they want to play the cool 'queen' pieces, and also not be too disadvantaged to win games.

Seems like easy fix to me: change the max points to 1200 - but don't change the min-max unit requirements.

At that range I bet you'll see a lot more diverse commander/heavy/support combos. And you'll have to because 6x trooper spam even with all the upgrade toys only gets a player to 600 points. Then they have 600 points of awesomeness to pick.

Probably still won't save the airspeeder though, lol

I like the idea but the extra money cost might prevent new players buying in and with the extra units on the table will increase tournament round time. Locally we are considering doing a grand army comp. Considering no one owns more than 6 core units it will be interesting to see how the extra points change things.

1 hour ago, Qark said:

You are though. As you stated this is an objective game. Key positions you could argue doesn't force you to move up until late in the game but transmissions, and supplies in particular are a race. If you don't move up the opponent will get the objectives before you and then it is very hard to come back from there. Breakthrough doesn't require you getting there early but you need to set up in those early turns so you have enough speed to make it across the board on the final turn. Moisture vaporators requires you to push unless you are playing for the draw on objectives and going for kills.

I would argue that because we can't pass 3 snipers are already the new meta. I haven't seen a list for a while that doesn't have at least 2. They are cheap and give you that extra activation specifically so your other units can delay their activations.

If we both have 5 and I use skins I now have 3. You go, and have 4 left, I pass so you go again I am effectively giving you your own skins. Can you elaborate on why you think this is a problem?

Posting mobile so can't break it up right now:

1) The round that matters the most for transmissions is round 6 though since the points are doubled. On the boards I play on, the objectives are typically in the open by sheer chance, so putting a unit on it turn 2 is asking for that unit to be shot off the board turn 3, unless you have some means of mitigation. The side with more activations can afford to sit back with some of its units and wait anyway, since if they get the same number of infantry leaders to the objective, turn 2 is a push anyway. Supplies is a race, but activating those units later is asking for them to be suppressed prior to activating.

2) I've seen multiple charges more than snipers for the area denial. Three snipers is very vulnerable to Leia's bombardment card, however if passing is a possibility, then 3 snipers and some number of range 4 AT-RTs or enplacements can keep you from being able to pass until they are done activating. Otherwise you run the risk of having an infantry unit panic off the board in turn one, making the deficiet even greater. So your opponent has the tools to force you to activate a particular unit or risk panic, then having the option to pass doesn't in my opinion change a whole lot.

3) The problem is no other command card is "Balanced" in that way. Veers 3 pip card doesn't allow your opponent to take free Refresh actions, so the card should also be changed. Additionally, forcing your opponent to move before you is part of the previous round bidding. Sometimes you want to go second, but also want to have the effect of a low card. A low activation force can play the low pip card for the powerful effect, but could just choose to go second by passing.

Ultimately, I don't think changing when the opponent gets more activations is going to dramatically change the meta of the game. They will still have more unit leaders for objectives, still have more wounds on the board, and still have more sources of pin markers to suppress units. By all means feel free to try it out in your local meta and see if it does make an effect.

The activation issue is familiar to Armada players, and I concur it needs some kind of fix, such as a “pass” mechanic.

Pass is a GOOD fix, in my opinion, because it’s a risk. Yes, it lets you hold some units reserved for later, rather than running out early and then leaving your opponent to freely run the table as soon as you’re out of activations. On the other hand, every pass gives your opponent a chance to shore things up in critical areas before you can strike. As the guy with fewer activations, you’ll have to be able to decide when it’s better to pass and when you need to strike hard and fast.

Fixes which come with tactical decision making are fixes I can get on board with.

This is a terrible idea. You can choose to play for fun or you can choose to play to win. Don't try to shape the game to have both because your preferred style is the former rather than the latter.

Also, come from behind mechanics are annoying and anti-fun. Nobody actually enjoys the Blue Shell in Mario Kart or the fact that in most non-sim racing games your car is faster when you aren't in first place.

34 minutes ago, MarekMandalore said:

The activation issue is familiar to Armada players, and I concur it needs some kind of fix, such as a “pass” mechanic.

Pass is a GOOD fix, in my opinion, because it’s a risk. Yes, it lets you hold some units reserved for later, rather than running out early and then leaving your opponent to freely run the table as soon as you’re out of activations. On the other hand, every pass gives your opponent a chance to shore things up in critical areas before you can strike. As the guy with fewer activations, you’ll have to be able to decide when it’s better to pass and when you need to strike hard and fast.

Fixes which come with tactical decision making are fixes I can get on board with.

One thing that helped in Armada (at least for me, as a generally Imperial player) was the introduction of Flotillas. I'm not quite sure what that would involve in Legion but perhaps a low point support unit, probably single model unit might be a route to investigate.

42 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:

This is a terrible idea. You can choose to play for fun or you can choose to play to win. Don't try to shape the game to have both because your preferred style is the former rather than the latter.

Also, come from behind mechanics are annoying and anti-fun. Nobody actually enjoys the Blue Shell in Mario Kart or the fact that in most non-sim racing games your car is faster when you aren't in first place.

I play competitively for fun. Saying I have to choose between being competitive or having fun is a terrible argument. A competitive environment where everyone is running the same list is boring and not fun.

As for come from behind well there needs to be some way of winning if you are behind on turn two or three. If there isn't then it might as well be a three round game. If you are really far behind then I agree you shouldn't win but a pass mechanic won't change that especially if you are mainly using it turn 1 before you get behind.

20 minutes ago, Crawfskeezen said:

One thing that helped in Armada (at least for me, as a generally Imperial player) was the introduction of Flotillas. I'm not quite sure what that would involve in Legion but perhaps a low point support unit, probably single model unit might be a route to investigate.

I think flotilla and snipers have the same problem in that they were a cheap activation that was mandatory to have so your bigger activations could delay until the optimal moment. That takes away list building choice that a pass mechanic would give back. If you look at armada they have restricted the number of flotilla you can have because they were a problem. They have also put in upgrades that let you pass your turn.