4 hours ago, IceManHG said:

This will change as more waves are released. There are not many must have upgrades right now because the selection is limited. For example the selection of astromechs is **** right now. More will be released that will be better.

More waves means more upgrades. New cards will be released that will become "must haves" when people realize how good they work with older ships.

I am hoping that FFG actively works to avoid this. An arms race will make us all lose!

1 hour ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

I am hoping that FFG actively works to avoid this. An arms race will make us all lose!

As a serious question, where the **** is this game going, then?

Ships no longer need upgrades, titles, or mods. Pilot talents are fairly vanilla. Subtypes are baked into the chassis already.

And no one wants FFG to upset the balance (. . .except for A-Wings. . .)

So other than creating "same design space" clones to fill out the underdeveloped factions so as not to rock the boat, where do people expect this game to go to stay interesting??

Or is everyone fine with XWM as Dials, Templates, Dice, Damage, Repeat? That is, flying is everything, who cares what the list is.

And/or listbuilding that essential boils down to "Stock Ships, Hold the Bling." That is, just pick a ship. Yours will be the same as everyone else's.

10 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Or is everyone fine with XWM as Dials, Templates, Dice, Damage, Repeat? That is, flying is everything, who cares what the list is. 

Sounds good to me.

It's insane to think we won't get rapid power creep.

Hoping the creep won't be too rapid, or is widely applicable rather than single ship centred. It might be beyond faith to expect it to not happen, but I don't see the opposite being true either. There is always hope.

I like slimline builds but I still find myself preferring to add at least one upgrade to most ships, something that leans a bit further into it's role. Predator Soontir being a prime example. I was very much going that way at the end of 1.0, so I'm pretty happy with it.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

As a serious question, where the **** is this game going, then?

Ships no longer need upgrades, titles, or mods. Pilot talents are fairly vanilla. Subtypes are baked into the chassis already.

And no one wants FFG to upset the balance (. . .except for A-Wings. . .)

So other than creating "same design space" clones to fill out the underdeveloped factions so as not to rock the boat, where do people expect this game to go to stay interesting??

Or is everyone fine with XWM as Dials, Templates, Dice, Damage, Repeat? That is, flying is everything, who cares what the list is.

And/or listbuilding that essential boils down to "Stock Ships, Hold the Bling." That is, just pick a ship. Yours will be the same as everyone else's.

I see your points (and have considered similar ones as I wrote that reply). However, I hope that FFG will use the potential lessons from 1.0 as they further expand 2.0.

By the end of 1.0, if you wanted to play and not get crushed, there were plenty of things that you simply never put on the table. If new releases afford a limited number of ships/pilots access to options for more dice, mods, & max initiative, then those will become the meta - to exclusion of everything else.

CCGs solve that kind of issue by using different formats that limit what you can play. I don’t envision that working so well for a minis game.

I don’t see the game as boring now. I think that there is a way forward without making everything about the new hotness and jankiest combo, and I hope FFG walks that path as they add to the game.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

As a serious question, where the **** is this game going, then?

Ships no longer need upgrades, titles, or mods. Pilot talents are fairly vanilla. Subtypes are baked into the chassis already.

And no one wants FFG to upset the balance (. . .except for A-Wings. . .)

So other than creating "same design space" clones to fill out the underdeveloped factions so as not to rock the boat, where do people expect this game to go to stay interesting??

Or is everyone fine with XWM as Dials, Templates, Dice, Damage, Repeat? That is, flying is everything, who cares what the list is.

And/or listbuilding that essential boils down to "Stock Ships, Hold the Bling." That is, just pick a ship. Yours will be the same as everyone else's.

I would personally have 2e develop into this. Two reasons:

1. It will differentiate it from 1e.

2. As a competitive game, following skilled players is more interested than following list-building. Skill is what makes a pro a pro, and what makes it interesting to follow.

3. It will keep 1e relevant, since its different.

I wouldn't want 2e to develop into another 1e with just more "balance" and more factions, but into an entirely different experience. This way we can have two games (1e or 2e) and play the one that you are in the mood to play.

12 hours ago, Scum4Life said:

Watch it up 5-10 points at the first rebalanced opportunity!

Only if the HWK itself goes down in points (with the exception of Palob). The rebel HWK pilots in particular don't deserve a nerf to the title.

6 minutes ago, gadwag said:

Only if the HWK itself goes down in points (with the exception of Palob). The rebel HWK pilots in particular don't deserve a nerf to the title.

Roark...

16 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

I think the Starviper practically needs Advanced Sensors, unless you plan on running them cheap. There’s a case to be made for Collision Detector, but IMO the option to take a boost or bent-BR before you maneuver is what really makes that ship tap-dance.

I don't entirely disagree, but by "the Starviper", do you really mean Guri? I've tried the generics a couple of times now, and they seem to work pretty well without it. Besides, AdS locks you out of a pretty decent linked action. The upgrade does make sense on a pilot that a) moves last, so is likely to be blocked and get no actions anyway, and b) gets its mods through its pilot ability/upgrade cards.

11 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

As a serious question, where the **** is this game going, then?

Ships no longer need upgrades, titles, or mods. Pilot talents are fairly vanilla. Subtypes are baked into the chassis already.

And no one wants FFG to upset the balance (. . .except for A-Wings. . .)

So other than creating "same design space" clones to fill out the underdeveloped factions so as not to rock the boat, where do people expect this game to go to stay interesting??

Or is everyone fine with XWM as Dials, Templates, Dice, Damage, Repeat? That is, flying is everything, who cares what the list is.

And/or listbuilding that essential boils down to "Stock Ships, Hold the Bling." That is, just pick a ship. Yours will be the same as everyone else's.

I think there's a middle ground between the craziness of 1st edition and a game where hardly any upgrades are required. For me list building is more interesting when the first thing you ask is "do I need any upgrades on this at all?" It's even more interesting when the answer to that question is "maybe". That's where I hope the game is going, and it's where it seems to be at the moment.

I'm fine with the game being about flying more than list building as I think that makes the game more interesting. Ironically it might make forum discussion more limited because the less effect list building has on the outcome of the game the more difficult it is to discuss things like tournament performance. I'd much rather have a game with fewer upgrades on the board if that leads to more situations where games are close and rely on skills on the board rather than instant wins because one of the players has an uncounterable, broken combo f ships and upgrades.

The lists I ran last night had four upgrades between three ships, and two upgrades between four ships. In both cases there was an upgrade or two that I would have liked to have added on if I'd had the spare points, but neither of them felt lacking with such a sparse loadout either. That's a good feeling.

having run 5 cartel marauders as part of a big 3v3 game last week, they definitely work without upgrades.

was doing a pretty good job against the rebel list I was playing against until one of his teammates flew in to assist

20 hours ago, dotswarlock said:

Well there is one upgrade that is almost a "must have": the Hawk title. Banking actions, 3 dice attack and extending the arcs of your abilities is just too good to pass up

I would have to disagree not with the fact that its amazing (cos it is!!!!) but rather I have played with the hawk twice without the title and 3 times with and I have to tell you he is a best with and Without the title 32 points is insanely cheap for a ship that can focus rotate arc! I would be surprised if the title cost stays the same but the ship cost increases.

21 hours ago, Church14 said:

Local meta is still to pile everything into a small number of ships that do 5 things every turn. So basically, what I disliked about 1e hasn’t budged an inch. I’ve basically abandoned the idea of getting into 2e until their meta swings more lean.

Lets be clear, I agree with OP. Having the game in a state where is feels like a fighter has the option to take upgrades and not the need would be ideal.

Can you post a list that demonstrates what you’re talking about?

We are on wave 1... I think its way to early to determine if upgrades will be mandatory or not. As for now its seems both kinds of shipbuilding can work, which is nice.

1 hour ago, Dengars Toilet Paper said:

I would have to disagree not with the fact that its amazing (cos it is!!!!) but rather I have played with the hawk twice without the title and 3 times with and I have to tell you he is a best with and Without the title 32 points is insanely cheap for a ship that can focus rotate arc! I would be surprised if the title cost stays the same but the ship cost increases.

Oh? Would you care to elaborate a bit (pilot, setting)? I'll admit to never having used the Hawk without the title, so I'm quite curious.

1 hour ago, Pooleman said:

Can you post a list that demonstrates what you’re talking about?

Not sure on all the details, but Fat Falcons are super popular for both Rebels and Scum. A few brobots builds with 2 ships, not 3. One guy has a sort of plague quadjumper from what I can tell. It has everything he can equip to it that causes havoc at range 0 or range 0-1

Imperials seem to be the one faction that runs leaner.

20 hours ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Still training my brain to be okay with naked aces.

Lone Wolf greatly adds to Soontir's survivability: 5/8 chance that your focus works as both focus and evade! Makes those few potshots on him even less likely to connect. Aces can be naked, but some squads need the upgrade for what they do or to give them that extra push. I.e., Juke on an initiative-holding Rexler or Whisper to force a face up card, get an evade token, and then have the same offensive token function as an ordinary evade token--double mileage. Fenn obviously wants Fearless more often than not, and Vader definitely hauls his points when supernatural.

4 hours ago, Jike said:

I'm fine with the game being about flying more than list building as I think that makes the game more interesting. Ironically it might make forum discussion more limited because the less effect list building has on the outcome of the game the more difficult it is to discuss things like tournament performance. I'd much rather have a game with fewer upgrades on the board if that leads to more situations where games are close and rely on skills on the board rather than instant wins because one of the players has an uncounterable, broken combo f ships and upgrades.

The forum discussions might shift to talking about tactics, formations, placement and other things that will start to be more prominent in a game that doesn't depend on list-building. This would be fantastic.

1 hour ago, dotswarlock said:

Oh? Would you care to elaborate a bit (pilot, setting)? I'll admit to never having used the Hawk without the title, so I'm quite curious.

I agree that the title is totally worth is but when you cant afford it, its not a problem. I've played Bonearm and Spice runner without the title. Both was with Brobots and both had engine upgrade. Bonearm was with IG88B and IG88C with Ion Cannons. The spice runner was with A and C and they had Adv Sensors. This allows the hwk to either boost evade or if not in trouble calc and share his calculate if he wants to rotate his arc he can still focus with linked actions! During a little tournament with around 20 players my brother played against a fat Han with Kanan crew and luke gunner crew and Jan Ors in the hwk without the title to give Han a extra dice! (My brother got wrecked haha) I'm not saying it's better value without the title but it sure isn't something to ignore when making a list.

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

Not sure on all the details, but Fat Falcons are super popular for both Rebels and Scum. A few brobots builds with 2 ships, not 3. One guy has a sort of plague quadjumper from what I can tell. It has everything he can equip to it that causes havoc at range 0 or range 0-1

Imperials seem to be the one faction that runs leaner.

I’ve been enjoying 4 ship rebel builds. They go down a little easier but that are fun.

4 minutes ago, Pooleman said:

I’ve been enjoying 4 ship rebel builds. They go down a little easier but that are fun.

The trouble for me isn’t that I can’t run something lean. I want to play 4 Xwings or some wierd AXBY list. The trouble is that I don’t like facing a fat anything. It’s just a drag to play against.

I don’t love XWMG, I just like to play it for a night every few weeks. When I walk in and see that a significant portion of the fleets people brought have a fat something, I don’t even bother getting the kit out of the car.

I got out of XWMG 1e for a few reasons, one big one being that every ship seemed to need 5-10 upgrades. Trying to remember all 14 effects that were happening on each ship got in the way of enjoying playing the game.

9 minutes ago, Church14 said:

The trouble for me isn’t that I can’t run something lean. I want to play 4 Xwings or some wierd AXBY list. The trouble is that I don’t like facing a fat anything. It’s just a drag to play against.

I don’t love XWMG, I just like to play it for a night every few weeks. When I walk in and see that a significant portion of the fleets people brought have a fat something, I don’t even bother getting the kit out of the car.

I got out of XWMG 1e for a few reasons, one big one being that every ship seemed to need 5-10 upgrades. Trying to remember all 14 effects that were happening on each ship got in the way of enjoying playing the game.

I think a lot of upgrades can work but that doesnt mean few upgrades don't work! Personally I would prefer a meta in which both types of lists work as to me that's what balance is. If the only way to success is through no upgrades and just lots of ships then that's just as bad as 1.0s Miranda with 15 upgrades. Finally I understand about the whole confusing situation when your opponent has 14 different effects but you have to remember that to get those effects you have to pay. One ship with 14 effects still has the same amount of health.

I have been thinking alot about how FFG could try to keep things balanced, and I think that finding ways of keeping ships like the X-Wing, Z-95, Tie Fighters, Y-WINGS, etc... Generally your lower end ships, viable throughout the life of the game will go a long way towards that. There should never be a time when ships don't get used anymore because they can't compete. A pilot like Wedge Antilles in a T-65 should still give anyone, from any faction, a tough game, and be a viable and important part of a list. JMO.

I think there will have to eventually be more ship type specific cards, to help keep the balance, like cards that give linked actions, but also, always, comes with a negative. I really like how R2-D2 will regenerate shields, but gives you a weapons disabled token. Things like that.