Wedge is flying in formation with Garven, Thane, and Sabine
And all 3 x wing pilots have swarm tactics.
Wedge shares his initiative at the start of engagement phase, and others swarm tactics trigger at the same time.
Wedge gives his ini 6 to thane, thane becomes 6 and give his ini 6 to garven.... after all, everyone becomes I6 at the start of engagement
So...is this legal?
5 minutes ago, A Fistful of Dices said:Wedge is flying in formation with Garven, Thane, and Sabine
And all 3 x wing pilots have swarm tactics.
Wedge shares his initiative at the start of engagement phase, and others swarm tactics trigger at the same time.
Wedge gives his ini 6 to thane, thane becomes 6 and give his ini 6 to garven.... after all, everyone becomes I6 at the start of engagement
So...is this legal?
yes.
Yep. Totally works.
For completeness, it should be noted that it also could be used to lower initiatives for everyone as well (if desired), since they are simultaneous effects regardless of initiative.
1 minute ago, jftanner said:Yep. Totally works.
For completeness, it should be noted that it also could be used to lower initiatives for everyone as well (if desired), since they are simultaneous effects regardless of initiative.
Why???? Swarm Tactics only activates at the beginning of the Engagement Phase. What benefit do you gain by making sure your opponent shoots first if you ordinarily would?
15 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:Why???? Swarm Tactics only activates at the beginning of the Engagement Phase. What benefit do you gain by making sure your opponent shoots first if you ordinarily would?
First thing that comes to mind is a pilot ability/upgrade that generates a token on defence.
Second is wanting to see if you need to spend a token on defence first rather than on attack.
Either way its an edge case thing.
Or just because your highest Init swarm pilot died but you still want a lower init pilot shooting first for whatever reason.
E.g. rexler with juke howl and del with swarm seyn with marksmanship. Howl dies. You might want del to take rex down so seyn can still shoot first and put a face down card on a shielded ship for rex to flip.
Edited by thespaceinvader
There's a bunch of reasons you might want to lower a ship's initiative. Sure, it lets your enemy shoot first, but it can also let your other ships shoot first. So, you can do things like pull down your high-initiative, high-damage ship so that it fires after a tractor beam from a lower-initiative ship.
Not something you'd want to do all the time, but definitely some potential uses here and there.
5 hours ago, jftanner said:There's a bunch of reasons you might want to lower a ship's initiative. Sure, it lets your enemy shoot first, but it can also let your other ships shoot first. So, you can do things like pull down your high-initiative, high-damage ship so that it fires after a tractor beam from a lower-initiative ship.
Not something you'd want to do all the time, but definitely some potential uses here and there.
Okay, I can see it a bit better now. Reduce the heavy hitter to enable the hobbler that is outside of range of being boosted to fire before the heavy does.
So I play the game the other night where the rebels player was using 3 Y wings and a hawk 290. The Hawk 290 has an ability in the beginning of engagement phase To change one Ships Initiative's to a 7 That was in his fire arc. Then using swarm Tactics Daisy chained the niche etive around sometimes even back to the hawk.
It was definitely a neat little trick then I saw I thinking do I have something like that as I'm a scum player then I noticed that my Hawk Can change one ship in its fireing arc from 0 to 2 To the initiative of 0. Can I use that to override his 7 and make his whole unit to an initiative of 0. The niff I can do I need to do anything differently like change initiative of my pilot or do I have to have or not have initiative in the game. I would really like to know it would be funny just to screw with him one time.
2 minutes ago, badgerclaw171 said:So I play the game the other night where the rebels player was using 3 Y wings and a hawk 290. The Hawk 290 has an ability in the beginning of engagement phase To change one Ships Initiative's to a 7 That was in his fire arc. Then using swarm Tactics Daisy chained the niche etive around sometimes even back to the hawk.
It was definitely a neat little trick then I saw I thinking do I have something like that as I'm a scum player then I noticed that my Hawk Can change one ship in its fireing arc from 0 to 2 To the initiative of 0. Can I use that to override his 7 and make his whole unit to an initiative of 0. The niff I can do I need to do anything differently like change initiative of my pilot or do I have to have or not have initiative in the game. I would really like to know it would be funny just to screw with him one time.
That HWK daisy chain doesn't work, as the pilot ability in question doesn't actually change anyone's Initiative score, it simply tells them to engage at 7:
While Swarm Tactics specifically copies the Initiative score, which Roark's ability does not change:
10 minutes ago, badgerclaw171 said:So I play the game the other night where the rebels player was using 3 Y wings and a hawk 290. The Hawk 290 has an ability in the beginning of engagement phase To change one Ships Initiative's to a 7 That was in his fire arc. Then using swarm Tactics Daisy chained the niche etive around sometimes even back to the hawk.
It was definitely a neat little trick then I saw I thinking do I have something like that as I'm a scum player then I noticed that my Hawk Can change one ship in its fireing arc from 0 to 2 To the initiative of 0. Can I use that to override his 7 and make his whole unit to an initiative of 0. The niff I can do I need to do anything differently like change initiative of my pilot or do I have to have or not have initiative in the game. I would really like to know it would be funny just to screw with him one time.
A few things here.
1. Roark Garnet doesn't change a ship's initiative to 7, it only lets them engage as if their initiative was 7. So you can't use Swarm Tactics to chain everything from Roark. It's worth noting that the wording on the cards is different from 1e, where this trick used to work.* It does not work in 2e.
1.b. Likewise, if you Torkil Mux an opponent's ship and they have Swarm Tactics, they'll share their printed initiative, but still engage at 0. The other ships won't be impacted by Torkil's 0.
1.c. Even if 0 or 7 could be shared, you wouldn't automatically 0 out your opponent's entire squad. They could simply choose not to share initiative with Swarm Tactics.
2. Whether Roark Garnet's 7 or Torkil Mux's 0 will prevail is down to first player. The first player uses their ability, then the second player can use theirs. If you had a larger bid and defer first player to your opponent, they will use their ability (lets say they Roark to 7) before you Torkil yours (and then they have to engage at 0).
//
* I had a friend who wanted to so some of this in Epic back in 1e, but was blocked by the errata to the Epic Tournament Regulations which limited you to 4 of any particular Elite upgrade or Secondary Weapon. His plan was to use Carlist Rieekan to have all his ships activate at PS 12, then have a eight A-Wings get TLs since they're moving last, then use Roark Garnet and Swarm Tactics to raise them all to PS 12 for the combat phase. And then open fire with moves-last, shoots-first 5-dice Cruise Missiles with Focus and TL. It would have been glorious.
But that's all 1e and doesn't work in 2e.
Edited by theBitterFig8 hours ago, theBitterFig said:A few things here.
1. Roark Garnet doesn't change a ship's initiative to 7, it only lets them engage as if their initiative was 7. So you can't use Swarm Tactics to chain everything from Roark. It's worth noting that the wording on the cards is different from 1e, where this trick used to work.* It does not work in 2e.
1.b. Likewise, if you Torkil Mux an opponent's ship and they have Swarm Tactics, they'll share their printed initiative, but still engage at 0. The other ships won't be impacted by Torkil's 0.
1.c. Even if 0 or 7 could be shared, you wouldn't automatically 0 out your opponent's entire squad. They could simply choose not to share initiative with Swarm Tactics.
2. Whether Roark Garnet's 7 or Torkil Mux's 0 will prevail is down to first player. The first player uses their ability, then the second player can use theirs. If you had a larger bid and defer first player to your opponent, they will use their ability (lets say they Roark to 7) before you Torkil yours (and then they have to engage at 0).
//
* I had a friend who wanted to so some of this in Epic back in 1e, but was blocked by the errata to the Epic Tournament Regulations which limited you to 4 of any particular Elite upgrade or Secondary Weapon. His plan was to use Carlist Rieekan to have all his ships activate at PS 12, then have a eight A-Wings get TLs since they're moving last, then use Roark Garnet and Swarm Tactics to raise them all to PS 12 for the combat phase. And then open fire with moves-last, shoots-first 5-dice Cruise Missiles with Focus and TL. It would have been glorious.
But that's all 1e and doesn't work in 2e.
Thanks for the information
On 10/18/2018 at 11:34 AM, nexttwelveexits said:That HWK daisy chain doesn't work, as the pilot ability in question doesn't actually change anyone's Initiative score, it simply tells them to engage at 7:
While Swarm Tactics specifically copies the Initiative score, which Roark's ability does not change:
So last night I went to a game store and saw the guy playing with the Hawk in the 3Y wings I told them Hey guess what that doesn't really work you can't do that tooth and nail fought me. I definitely see what you guys see but you know how some people are. Is there any place on the forum where there was official ruling on this. I would appreciate it if I'm directed There.
39 minutes ago, badgerclaw171 said:So last night I went to a game store and saw the guy playing with the Hawk in the 3Y wings I told them Hey guess what that doesn't really work you can't do that tooth and nail fought me. I definitely see what you guys see but you know how some people are. Is there any place on the forum where there was official ruling on this. I would appreciate it if I'm directed There.
No, this hasn't been addressed, because I'm pretty sure there isn't really a question there. At least, not one that isn't being asked by someone who is stubbornly trying to do something that isn't written on the cards.
I mean, to be frank, he's just plain wrong. All he has to do is read the cards. Swarm Tactics copies the initiative value; Roark does not change the initiative value.
If, for some reason, there's still doubt, compare 2.0 Roark's wording to 1.0 Roark. The swarm tactics Roark combo did work in first edition, because 1.0 Roark's ability said "treat that ship's pilot skill value as 12," which functionally changes the PS to 12 for the duration of the phase. But 2.0 Roark does not interact with a ship's initiative at all. He simply tells the ship it's allowed to engage during the I7 window instead of when it would normally engage.
Sounds to me like someone who was frustrated that a favored 1.0 mechanic didn't survive the transition to 2.0, but wanting something to work isn't the same as something actually working. Just ask my first car
Lett me paint you a picture what I'm dealing with. So the kid is like 16 years old and he likes to do these type of things especially ln old edition. When I told him about it he pulled out the rules and Started to pretend to read that it was OK to do it. When I asked him show me the paragraph he froze I told him that's really low. Now I know there's always someone like that in each gaming which is why I have a hard time playing these games. But then other started to chime in and agree with him so now I'm looking for an official ruling which I think is a pain in the a**.
they should accept it the way it is.
Obviously they're trying to get away from this type of play style with tricks to win games apparently they didn't get the memo.
Thanks
Edited by badgerclaw17117 minutes ago, badgerclaw171 said:So last night I went to a game store and saw the guy playing with the Hawk in the 3Y wings I told them Hey guess what that doesn't really work you can't do that tooth and nail fought me. I definitely see what you guys see but you know how some people are. Is there any place on the forum where there was official ruling on this. I would appreciate it if I'm directed There.
You won't get an official ruling on this probably as it's worded fairly clearly on the cards.
10 minutes ago, badgerclaw171 said:Lett me paint you a picture what I'm dealing with. So the kid is like 16 years old and he likes to do these type of things especially me old edition. When I told him about it he pulled out the rules and Started to pretend to read that it was OK to do it. When I asked him show me the paragraph he froze I told him that's really low. Now I know there's always someone like that in each gaming which is why I have a hard time playing these games. But then other started to chime in and agree with him so now I'm looking for an official ruling which I think is a pain the a** they should accept it the way it is.
Obviously they're trying to get away from this type of play style with tricks to win games apparently they didn't get the memo.
Thanks
I guess it wouldn't be the first time a whole bunch of people convinced themselves that they were right in the face of all evidence to the contrary.
Tell him the swarm Roark combo has zero chance of being accepted at any official 2e event, and that if he really wants to fly it in casual play you'd be happy to fly against it with harpoon missiles and guidance chips.
38 minutes ago, badgerclaw171 said:Lett me paint you a picture what I'm dealing with. So the kid is like 16 years old and he likes to do these type of things especially me old edition. When I told him about it he pulled out the rules and Started to pretend to read that it was OK to do it. When I asked him show me the paragraph he froze I told him that's really low. Now I know there's always someone like that in each gaming which is why I have a hard time playing these games. But then other started to chime in and agree with him so now I'm looking for an official ruling which I think is a pain the a** they should accept it the way it is.
I think this is the point where you say "Being confused about a rule is one thing. Lying about the what you're reading in the rulebook is another. Find another opponent if you'd like to continue cheating."
Sometimes, I find, when dealing with someone that stubborn on an issue this clear, its best just to shake their hand and call it a game and then find a different opponent. If it is a tournament, then go through the TO process. If the TO sides with the ridiculous, then find a new store to play at.
Fly Casual, this game, at its heart, is super fun. Lets keep it that way. :-)
3 hours ago, drazen90909 said:Sometimes, I find, when dealing with someone that stubborn on an issue this clear, its best just to shake their hand and call it a game and then find a different opponent. If it is a tournament, then go through the TO process. If the TO sides with the ridiculous, then find a new store to play at.
Fly Casual, this game, at its heart, is super fun. Lets keep it that way. ?
Yeah unfortunately this is a league and the guy who's running it agrees with him.
I'll just have to refuse to play him.
10 minutes ago, badgerclaw171 said:Yeah unfortunately this is a league and the guy who's running it agrees with him.
I'll just have to refuse to play him.
The guy who's running the league agrees with blatantly incorrect rules?
Bro, I hate to say this, but you gotta find yourself a new league.
1 hour ago, jftanner said:The guy who's running the league agrees with blatantly incorrect rules?
Bro, I hate to say this, but you gotta find yourself a new league.
Yeah I would love to but I have limited nights to play and they are the only ones with night and in Proximity I can play.
well, should be easy enough to explain how swarm tactics work and how roark works. roark doesn't change the initiative value of a given pilot, he lets the given pilot engage at initiative seven. swarm tactics doesn't care at what initiative you engage at, it simply gives a given pilot the same initiative value you have.
thus, a pilot with initiative (insert any number here) equipped with swarm tactics can give his initiative to another pilot. that pilot can also be equipped with swarm tactics and give his initiative of (insert the same number as previously here) to another pilot. that pilot can then give its initiative to another pilot through swarm tactics, and so on and so forth.
roark garnet does not change anyones initiative at all. he lets a given pilot engage at a different initiative, even though that pilot still has its own initiative value.
those are simply how the rules work. sure, you can argue against it all you want, but its whats printed on the cards. do you really think your local TO would like to encourage people to play their pilots and upgrades any way they prefer rather than how they're designed to function?
if that's the case, why don't you just add double turret arc indicators to all your ships and start shooting in any direction you like? or keep focus tokens while changing all your focus results? or perform actions while stressed? or equip your ships with 1.0-upgrades? sounds fair enough.
you could always refer them to this thread as well. may the force be with you.
On 10/23/2018 at 8:25 PM, meffo said:well, should be easy enough to explain how swarm tactics work and how roark works. roark doesn't change the initiative value of a given pilot, he lets the given pilot engage at initiative seven. swarm tactics doesn't care at what initiative you engage at, it simply gives a given pilot the same initiative value you have.
thus, a pilot with initiative (insert any number here) equipped with swarm tactics can give his initiative to another pilot. that pilot can also be equipped with swarm tactics and give his initiative of (insert the same number as previously here) to another pilot. that pilot can then give its initiative to another pilot through swarm tactics, and so on and so forth.
roark garnet does not change anyones initiative at all. he lets a given pilot engage at a different initiative, even though that pilot still has its own initiative value.
those are simply how the rules work. sure, you can argue against it all you want, but its whats printed on the cards. do you really think your local TO would like to encourage people to play their pilots and upgrades any way they prefer rather than how they're designed to function?
if that's the case, why don't you just add double turret arc indicators to all your ships and start shooting in any direction you like? or keep focus tokens while changing all your focus results? or perform actions while stressed? or equip your ships with 1.0-upgrades? sounds fair enough.
you could always refer them to this thread as well. may the force be with you.
So the drama continues so I played last night and when I saw the guy running the league I handed him a print out of this threat or post whatever you care to call it. So he can see how you guys explained it on why it doesn't work he went straight to is this official It's not official I don't care. So he cut me down right there without even looking at it.
So like other people have said I'm may be looking for a new gaming group This guy have no respect for now. Hes gonna run the league with whatever rules he feels fit for the time I think is not only problematic but just disrespectful to all players.
This put to bed taste my mouth about playing these types of games you always run into these type of people.
Very disappointed gamer.
12 minutes ago, badgerclaw171 said:So the drama continues so I played last night and when I saw the guy running the league I handed him a print out of this threat or post whatever you care to call it. So he can see how you guys explained it on why it doesn't work he went straight to is this official It's not official I don't care. So he cut me down right there without even looking at it.
So like other people have said I'm may be looking for a new gaming group This guy have no respect for now. Hes gonna run the league with whatever rules he feels fit for the time I think is not only problematic but just disrespectful to all players.
This put to bed taste my mouth about playing these types of games you always run into these type of people.
Very disappointed gamer.
He's wrong, but sometimes you can't argue with wrong.
Just submit the question to the official rules questions line and hope they answer it.
And don't use Swarm Tactics with the intention of it working that way.
Or don't play.
Those are your options, really.
