What do you reckon?

TIE/ca Punisher - •“Redline” - 61
•“Redline” - Adrenaline Junkie (44)
Advanced Sensors (8)
Proton Torpedoes (9)

TIE/ph Phantom - •“Whisper” - 66
•“Whisper” - Soft-Spoken Slayer (52)
•Darth Vader (14)

TIE Advanced v1 - •Grand Inquisitor - 70
•Grand Inquisitor - Master of the Inquisitorious (58)
Supernatural Reflexes (12)

Total: 197/200

Starting point was actually GI. He's so fun. Need some meat to take heat, so Redline. Points spare enough for another ace. I've been wanting to do Whisper + Vader, so bingo.

The minimal upgrades I wanted for each just about fit so I'm happy. But there is room for change. Could drop Vader for Juke. Could drop Supernatural.... Points could always be added to Redline... But then I'm moving away from the actual things I wanted most. Initially, I was looking at a bigger bid, mostly for GI Joe, but whatever, I'm willing to roll with it.

Just... Will it work? Could it work better?

And maybe, how the heck do I fly it?

Yes! I've been thinking about these three but am yet to try it. Here's the build I have lined up:

TIE/ph Phantom - •“Whisper” - 56
•“Whisper” - Soft-Spoken Slayer (52)
Juke (4)

TIE Advanced v1 - •Grand Inquisitor - 77
•Grand Inquisitor - Master of the Inquisitorious (58)
Proton Rockets (7)
Supernatural Reflexes (12)

TIE/ca Punisher - •“Redline” - 53
•“Redline” - Adrenaline Junkie (44)
Proton Torpedoes (9)

Total: 186/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

So - comparing ...

- You have Advanced Sensors on Redline. This is always useful. Is it 'critical' for your build? When do you think you're going to need it?

- Vader v. Juke. Vader's scary but expensive. Juke seems such a natural fit for the TIE Phantom with the evade / cloak stuff going on.

- I have proton rockets. It's a luxury I should probably ditch, 7 points is a lot for a single 5 dice shot. It's just satisfying when you use them

- Bid. It's obviously dependent on local meta, what you expect to fly against etc. I'm very conscious of how critical moving last is going to be against Guri builds that I'm likely to face.

- Love SNR on GI. He has boost / barrel roll naturally so very well placed to make the most of it.

- Love fully modded Proton Torpedoes on Redline! (what's not to love!)

- Love three I5 pilots for flexibility in activation / engagement order

I think Juke is a must.

Keeping Vader and cutting Advanced Sensors is one option. Advanced Sensors could also be replaced with Trajectory Simulator and either Proton Bombs or Seismic Charges. TrajSim/Seismic would be 6 points, so Juke could be fit in at a total of 199 points.

Dropping Vader, adding Juke, adding something like Collision Detector could also work well. I've loved it whenever I've flown it on Phantoms. Decloaking through asteroids and debris opens up a lot of options. Without Vader, you could also get Fire Control System (or even Collision Detector) for the Inquisitor. Not vital, but I think either could be quite handy. FCS is a degree of action efficiency, and ColDet can do some cool things with TGI's Supernatural Reflexes moves.

1 hour ago, eljms said:

- Love SNR on GI. He has boost / barrel roll naturally so very well placed to make the most of it.

- Love fully modded Proton Torpedoes on Redline! (what's not to love!)

- Love three I5 pilots for flexibility in activation / engagement order

All of these things!

So.

Bid wise. So far, locally, I've not seen much under 194ish. Nevertheless, I'm expecting to get beaten on it a fair bit so I'm going to go quite hard on figuring out what I can do to make the most of it. Redline as a potential blocker is big, but it may require having 1 or both aces nearby to capitalise. I'm not sure that's a great thing. I'd definitely target one of them instead of Redline and hope to wipe one out early. If I'm up against a lone Redline, late game, he dies.

Still, Whisper getting his free evade before being shot at is a thing. Throwing GI into a surprising block from out of nowhere, for Whisper/Vader is also maybe a thing.

Moving last will suit them but moving 1st might catch a few unawares.

Guri will be horrible though.

Vader/Juke. He's expensive but he's a nightmare to face. I've found Whisper can be prone to awful attack dice so some guaranteed damage is good. If they have a focus but you take it, bad dice are similarly mitigated to Juke. Plus a force token on top. Both would be awesome... Bottom line, I just really wanted Vader, but him out, Juke in is probably near equally economical for little real loss. This is the spot where my test games are really gonna be looking.

AdvS on Redline is crazy good. Red BR into TL into blue move. Focus into TL into 4k/stop. Boost into whatever. He almost becomes an arc dodger. Not to mention the action into block. Getting him blocked and not being able to TL is horrible, and he's not hard to block. I've tried several games against AI with him just toting Pro Torps, he gets sad and useless quick in a scrum.

Funnily enough, playing against him a couple times and seeing him about, I've not seen people do much with him past launch Pro Torps and bombs. In that mode, I've found him not very scary. Could be I've not looked far

Prockets. I'd love them but they were the thing that went to get Vader in. If Vader went, munitions would be the things that came back with Juke.

Redline is the threat. I want him to survive long enough to soften/kill things before he goes. The other 2 flank, hopefully kill the opposition flanker/s and finish what Redline started. If Guri flanks alone, she might struggle with both aces.

Things will go bad if Redline dies too quick and/or I lose one of the aces before real damage is done. Redline dying too quick is probably likely.... But I'm not sure I'd want to ignore the aces.

I think the real problem to solve is how I set up the early turns and how successfully I can bait and split their forces. To that end, I'll maybe not be flanking too hard, but starting not too far apart, near centre, depending on their deployment. The many repositions available can help me open or close space as appropriate.

This is all just vague, rambling, theory craft though. Table time will screw everything up

21 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I think Juke is a must.

Keeping Vader and cutting Advanced Sensors is one option. Advanced Sensors could also be replaced with Trajectory Simulator and either Proton Bombs or Seismic Charges. TrajSim/Seismic would be 6 points, so Juke could be fit in at a total of 199 points.

Dropping Vader, adding Juke, adding something like Collision Detector could also work well. I've loved it whenever I've flown it on Phantoms. Decloaking through asteroids and debris opens up a lot of options. Without Vader, you could also get Fire Control System (or even Collision Detector) for the Inquisitor. Not vital, but I think either could be quite handy. FCS is a degree of action efficiency, and ColDet can do some cool things with TGI's Supernatural Reflexes moves.

I pretty much agree with all that, Vader is an expensive 'I WANT' luxury. Those points elsewhere likely add more.

FCS is a good shout on GI but Supernatural can see him grabbing new locks almost for fun, at R1. Col Det, I need to try.

The bombs I'm not fussed about though, but it could be because, with AS Defenders, I've not been fussed about facing them. I kind of feel that people just eat them and carry on, if necessary. 8pts is pricey for a couple random damage. Plus setting up the launch/drop, losing AS can make for a predictable and soon dead Punisher imo. I'd use them in a different set up though, where the swift loss is part of the plan.

21 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

AdvS on Redline is crazy good. Red BR into TL into blue move. Focus into TL into 4k/stop. Boost into whatever. He almost becomes an arc dodger. Not to mention the action into block. Getting him blocked and not being able to TL is horrible, and he's not hard to block. I've tried several games against AI with him just toting Pro Torps, he gets sad and useless quick in a scrum.

Nice. I want Advanced Sensors now. I've either got to drop my bid (and avoid playing my Guri loving pals), or do without prockets ...

24 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I pretty much agree with all that, Vader is an expensive 'I WANT' luxury. Those points elsewhere likely add more.

FCS is a good shout on GI but Supernatural can see him grabbing new locks almost for fun, at R1. Col Det, I need to try.

The bombs I'm not fussed about though, but it could be because, with AS Defenders, I've not been fussed about facing them. I kind of feel that people just eat them and carry on, if necessary. 8pts is pricey for a couple random damage. Plus setting up the launch/drop, losing AS can make for a predictable and soon dead Punisher imo. I'd use them in a different set up though, where the swift loss is part of the plan.

I'm mostly just running through options, in some ways learning about the list by discussing it. Juke/Vader Whisper is a pretty heavy hitter. Chucking a Seismic Charge into the middle of the right list is potentially a lot of damage. That said, I think people are probably getting more used to dealing with how bomb launching works. It was probably a bit better a month ago than it is now.

18 minutes ago, eljms said:

Nice. I want Advanced Sensors now. I've either got to drop my bid (and avoid playing my Guri loving pals), or do without prockets ...

Your bid seems pretty enormous to me, lol.

I think you'd get more out of AdvS than Prockets, but I'm not practised with them enough on a Punisher to really know. And the big hit from Prockets can be clutch.

I think it's just a local thing. This blog by a friend of mine gives some context:

https://midwestscrub.wordpress.com/2018/10/09/the-st-louis-bid-change-my-mind/

3 minutes ago, eljms said:

I think it's just a local thing. This blog by a friend of mine gives some context:

https://midwestscrub.wordpress.com/2018/10/09/the-st-louis-bid-change-my-mind/

Oh. Ouch.

The Boba/Guri thing does mess with the bid. Guri is so manoeurable and loves going last. The list itself gains little extra efficiency past about 185 too.

Interesting thread on Initiative over on the main board too, which tied very much into my thinking with this list. I really feel that learning how to maximise moving 1st is a necessary thing in 2.0 atm and I've sort of thrown myself into attempting that with this build, (which did in fact start out at 192). Parts of it really want to go last.... I'm hoping I can find ways to make it hurt less if I don't.

Like kill Guri ASAP!

48 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

That said, I think people are probably getting more used to dealing with how bomb launching works. It was probably a bit better a month ago than it is now.

Sounds plausible. I did see some very nice work done with Proxies at the wknd. They can be quite cruel. Aaand I did die to a launched Seismic, but only because I forgot it was there

Coming back to this after a little practice.

Turns out, Redline is not so much the threat as slightly ignorable if you open too obviously with him and make him temporarily avoidable. This puts Whisper and GI in uncomfortable places. Does, or should, leave Redline room to do serious damage but if he's the only one left alive, either at R1 or Torps spent, things do not go well.

Also, GI moving last is so stupendous I do actually want to go for more bid.

So, it pains me but Vader is going in reserve for the next run. Juke and Col Det will go on Whisper to make his trajectory less obvious and make up for the loss of the Force. Then I'm going to shadow Redline with him somewhat, hedging on the edge of R3, with open decloak options for repositioning. Should buy easy space for GI to flank and hit R1.

Not an easy list for me to fly at all but it does seem to have some potency.

Once I get the hang of Whispers role and perhaps don't need Col Det so much, Vader may return!

Or I might go Prockets on GI after all. He's very mean with them....

I finally flew a version of this today. I went with:

Whisper with Juke

GI with Supernatural Reflexes and Prockets

Redline with Proton Torpedoes

... and a bid

As per others comments, I don't think I can afford to not take advanced sensors on Redline, he spent a couple of rounds getting blocked. I also don't think I can afford to drop the bid much, going last is too important for GI. Next time out I'm going to drop Prockets and take Advanced Sensors with a slightly smaller (but hopefully still significant) bid.

On 10/15/2018 at 6:29 PM, Cuz05 said:

TIE/ca Punisher - •“Redline” - 61
•“Redline” - Adrenaline Junkie (44)
Advanced Sensors (8)
Proton Torpedoes (9)

TIE/ph Phantom - •“Whisper” - 66
•“Whisper” - Soft-Spoken Slayer (52)
•juke (4)

TIE Advanced v1 - •Grand Inquisitor - 70
•Grand Inquisitor - Master of the Inquisitorious (58)
Supernatural Reflexes (12)

Total 187 poins (with a good bid)

If you want you can add concussin missiles for 6 points on inquiaitor to have 3 attack dices at range 2-3 without using his ability (saving force). So you can so you can boost/barrel in red focus (with supernatural), make a blue manouver and then t.l. and shoot always 3 dices fully modded. But you reach 193 points and reduce the bid could be very bad for tgis list

On 10/15/2018 at 6:29 PM, Cuz05 said:

Just... Will it work? Could it work better?

I was thinking along similar lines, and IMO you should remove SNR.

The reason is that Inq will use his ability every turn. Maybe he uses the emergency force-focus if needed, but then he's out of tokens. So he has simply no resources for SNR. So I'd kick it out and do either this:

“Whisper” (52) Juke (4) Collision Detector (5) Darth Vader (14)

“Redline” (44) Advanced Sensors (8) Proton Torpedoes (9)

Grand Inquisitor (58) Fire-Control System (3)

Total: 197

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Or move the AdvS from Redline to Inq for 3more points to bid.

47 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The reason is that Inq will use his ability every turn. Maybe he uses the emergency force-focus if needed, but then he's out of tokens. So he has simply no resources for SNR. So I'd kick it out and do either this:

The good thing of this list is that inquisitor is cheap and it in not a tragedy if you lose it. But i think that you need more bid to use inquisitor

55 minutes ago, Manolox said:

i think that you need more bid to use inquisitor

Agreed. Which is kinda why I've moved away from him a little. Every list I come up with for him (that I actually want to use) has too little bid or not enough beef. I'm trying to stay out of bid wars atm, so GI, obviously benefitting so hugely from moving last, has gone a bit backburner.

@GreenDragoon Having played with him a few times now, SNR is just amazing at R1. You largely save the force for his ability at R2/3. At R1 with SNR, you don't often need it. If you can arrange it so you get there fully charged, even better. I don't really consider him without it tbh, he becomes a different ship. But it does need the bid to work well that way, I think.

Which is really my problem now, at 70pt, you have to build differently. I wish I could fit him in with Rex and Echo.... I may revisit this list in the next couple weeks, with Echo in for Whisper. I am very much loving Echo atm.

Honestly, Redline being so popular has sort of put me off him

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

Having played with him a few times now, SNR is just amazing at R1. You largely save the force for his ability at R2/3. At R1 with SNR, you don't often need it. If you can arrange it so you get there fully charged, even better. I don't really consider him without it tbh, he becomes a different ship. But it does need the bid to work well that way, I think.

Ah, got it. To me, 12points that are only used if you messed up and are at R1 is a bit much. I would prefer to simply run away in that situation and reengage later

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Ah, got it. To me, 12points that are only used if you messed up and are at R1 is a bit much. I would prefer to simply run away in that situation and reengage later

Yeah, fair point. I do like him at R1 with it, that's where I want him. It's just so entertaining. If I'm sniping from distance, I'm probably looking at other ships.

Tbf though, using him as a sniper sounds like it would have benefits to the squad, I'll look at it on the table.

He would fit with Juked up Rex and Echo then. With no upgrades. At 200pts

How about Duchess instead of GI? Still IN5 and relatively cheap too. I've run mine with just Predator to good effect, but you could afford to go for a Juke and Fifth Brother Duchess in this list and still have a 6-point bid.

49 minutes ago, Jike said:

How about Duchess instead of GI? Still IN5 and relatively cheap too. I've run mine with just Predator to good effect, but you could afford to go for a Juke and Fifth Brother Duchess in this list and still have a 6-point bid.

Its a good shout. I need to get a Striker. Resisted so far because 1 is never enough of anything

On 10/19/2018 at 11:44 AM, Cuz05 said:

Coming back to this after a little practice.

Turns out, Redline is not so much the threat as slightly ignorable if you open too obviously with him and make him temporarily avoidable. This puts Whisper and GI in uncomfortable places. Does, or should, leave Redline room to do serious damage but if he's the only one left alive, either at R1 or Torps spent, things do not go well.

So, it pains me but Vader is going in reserve for the next run. Juke and Col Det will go on Whisper to make his trajectory less obvious and make up for the loss of the Force.

Don’t give up so quickly on (“Cloak & Choke”) Whisper or the better option when repositioning after declaring in my opinion Echo. As to Redline I slow move him into position usually immediately; making his Proton Torpedoes and Proton Bombs almost unavoidable. Take away arcs, outflanked and overwhelm with target priority.

Here is a list that is very efficient I run a lot it sits at 194; but admittedly I use Dearhfire for the extra kill shot which puts the total at 198 for a 2 point bid which is nice if needed. In this list don’t downplay Seyn’s effectiveness.

TIE/ca Punisher - •“Redline” - 61
•“Redline” - Adrenaline Junkie (44)
Trajectory Simulator (3)
Proton Torpedoes (9)
Proton Bombs (5)

TIE/ph Phantom - •“Echo” - 68
•“Echo” - Slippery Trickster (50)
Juke (4)
•Darth Vader (14)

TIE/ln Fighter - •Seyn Marana - 31
•Seyn Marana - Inferno Four (30)
Marksmanship (1)

TIE/sa Bomber - Scimitar Squadron Pilot - 34
Scimitar Squadron Pilot - (28)
Barrage Rockets (6)

Total: 194/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

So which ship you going after first? Remember “Deathfire” is my normal bomber play for the kill shot attack at death if needed.

3 hours ago, Cgriffith said:

So which ship you going after first? Remember “Deathfire” is my normal bomber play for the kill shot attack at death if needed.

That's a nice list!

It depends where you put Echo and Seyn, but one of them is probably my 1st shot. If you gave me any

I've actually been moving away from a lot of this list. Redline is just because he's popular really. It's hard to resist... But he'll likely go up in points, I don't want to plan around him.

The Phantoms though, I've been trying to get into them. They're tough. Echo has turned the corner a bit for me, if I only have 1, it's him.

Playing both named pilots with Rex atm. Because I love Rex forever now.

I've still not really got Whisper right. Would love to get Super GI in for him

There is a 56pt hole there that I could put a lot of things in. If it's a 42pt thing, Echo gets Vader. But I'm preferring to try a bit harder with Whisper atm. Don't want to give up on it just yet.