15 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Haven't  wat  ched the films in a while, but p  retty sure the NCC-1701 and NCC  -1701-A a   re n  ot the same  ship  at all. 

I think he meant the classic series enterprise and the refit done for TMP and just mixed up the “A” designation.

18 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

They are the same type of ship but not the same model. Like how there were various variants of the X-Wing, or to use Gundam as an example the vast variants of the Zaku II. At least that is what I'd imagine considering they have different model numbers, one being the BTL-A4 variant and the other being a BTL-B variant. Pretty sure the ones in Rebels are even noted as being the BTL-A4 variant instead of the Clone Wars BTL-B one. Maybe a fully armored BTL-A4 had the same type armor of the BTL-B but had reduced engine nacelles for some reason.

Haven't watched the films in a while, but pretty sure the NCC-1701 and NCC-1701-A are not the same ship at all. Same class of ship yes, they were both Constitution class ships, both of which were refitted but the original Enterprise was destroyed they slapped the NCC-1701-A on another Constitution class ship and then called it day. Then 1701-B was slapped onto a Excelsior class, Kirk 'died', 1701-C on a Consular class which was destroyed by Romulans I think, 1701-D on a galaxy class that was destroyed by a bird of prey, and 1701-E on a Sovereign class and it flew off to boldly go where no one had gone before.

I think he may have mainly meant that they were both Constitution class, which is true, and at one point they were both the refit version.

Of course, this entire argument hearkens back to other similar situations we've also had in Star Wars lore. The A-Wing in the Droids cartoon later being retconned to the R-22 Spearhead, for example.

The Rebels episodes imply that these are the same Y-Wings flown by the clone trooper pilots in TCW. Was there an additional model between what we saw in TCW and Rebels? Do we have a source that states that more directly? Could the differences in length be just down to artistic licenses used in the models but then later stated in canon because we like having numbers put down in books?

Again, I'd love to see the two animated models compared. I don't have the know-how to do that myself, though, unfortunately.

On 10/15/2018 at 12:00 PM, Raithnor said:

I'd be really leery of ships with a chrome finish like the Naboo ships. If the chrome starts flaking off it could look like garbage. The N-1s could get away with it, since only the front and bottom are Chrome.

Chrome? Firefox would make a far better coating for interstellar spaceships!

22 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

They are the same type of ship but not the same model. Like how there were various variants of the X-Wing, or to use Gundam as an example the vast variants of the Zaku II. At least that is what I'd imagine considering they have different model numbers, one being the BTL-A4 variant and the other being a BTL-B variant. Pretty sure the ones in Rebels are even noted as being the BTL-A4 variant instead of the Clone Wars BTL-B one. Maybe a fully armored BTL-A4 had the same type armor of the BTL-B but had reduced engine nacelles for some reason.

This makes sense to me. A Boeing 747-8 is about 33% longer than a 747 SP, but they're both 747s.

1 hour ago, CaptainIxidor said:

The Rebels episodes imply that these are the same Y-Wings flown by the clone trooper pilots in TCW. Was there an additional model between what we saw in TCW and Rebels? Do we have a source that states that more directly? Could the differences in length be just down to artistic licenses used in the models but then later stated in canon because we like having numbers put down in books?

Again, I'd love to see the two animated models compared. I don't have the know-how to do that myself, though, unfortunately.

I was mistaken, I thought the concept art/asset image stated its designation I was wrong about that. For the most part they are both just called Y-Wings, with ancillary material stating they are different models. Rogue One's visual guide is the first in the new canon to identify the Rebel ones at BTL-A4s and strangely enough Battlefront 2 (EA) is the first to identify the Clone Wars variant as the BTL-B in the new canon.

I went around looking at the concept art for the Clone Wars and Rebels models, they are at different angle making comparing a bit well difficult to say the least. So, unless someone were to screenshot images of the show and hope for a similar position of the ship outside the image already above there is little to compare officially.

I was really excited when I saw that rebelscale.com had a page on y-wings but it ultimately doesn't say that much about the lengths and does a bit of reasonable speculation on how the ship got from one state to another.

http://www.rebelscale.com/scale-lists/star-wars-size-analyses/y-wing-variants/

8 hours ago, eMeM said:

If that was the intention someone royally srewed up.

Rebels Y-wings have different turrets and cockpits, why not engines?

Retrofitting.

8 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

They are the same type of ship but not the same model. Like how there were various variants of the X-Wing, or to use Gundam as an example the vast variants of the Zaku II. At least that is what I'd imagine considering they have different model numbers, one being the BTL-A4 variant and the other being a BTL-B variant. Pretty sure the ones in Rebels are even noted as being the BTL-A4 variant instead of the Clone Wars BTL-B one. Maybe a fully armored BTL-A4 had the same type armor of the BTL-B but had reduced engine nacelles for some reason.

Haven't watched the films in a while, but pretty sure the NCC-1701 and NCC-1701-A are not the same ship at all. Same class of ship yes, they were both Constitution class ships, both of which were refitted but the original Enterprise was destroyed they slapped the NCC-1701-A on another Constitution class ship and then called it day. Then 1701-B was slapped onto a Excelsior class, Kirk 'died', 1701-C on a Consular class which was destroyed by Romulans I think, 1701-D on a galaxy class that was destroyed by a bird of prey, and 1701-E on a Sovereign class and it flew off to boldly go where no one had gone before.

okay if I'm throwing out the A and such chances are I know each Enterprise and know those aren't all the same ship, but the A is a refit. Pretty sure it's supposed to be the same ship. You'd have to be really stupid to think the E was ever the original Enterprise. Like for real.

8 hours ago, Forgottenlore said:

I think he meant the classic series enterprise and the refit done for TMP and just mixed up the “A” designation.

Yeah that.

8 hours ago, CaptainIxidor said:

I think he may have mainly meant that they were both Constitution class, which is true, and at one point they were both the refit version.

Of course, this entire argument hearkens back to other similar situations we've also had in Star Wars lore. The A-Wing in the Droids cartoon later being retconned to the R-22 Spearhead, for example.

The Rebels episodes imply that these are the same Y-Wings flown by the clone trooper pilots in TCW. Was there an additional model between what we saw in TCW and Rebels? Do we have a source that states that more directly? Could the differences in length be just down to artistic licenses used in the models but then later stated in canon because we like having numbers put down in books?

Again, I'd love to see the two animated models compared. I don't have the know-how to do that myself, though, unfortunately.

Thanks for this one, good to see somebody else paying attention to the shows.

They really are supposed to be the same ships.

The classic trek series and the refit from films 1-3. Then it was self destructed in 3 and they introduced the “A” at the very tail end of 4, which was an entirely new ship. That’s what the “A” was meant to indicate.

Interestingly, while the refit was nominally the same ship, I have always heard that the refit was so extensive, they designated it as a new ship class. So the classic series enterprise was a constitution class and the film version an Enterprise class, despite being the same ship, technically.

Perhaps they should have designated it the Thesius class.

18 hours ago, eMeM said:

I don’t see how this is so confusing, i thought this picture really cleared things up.

The middle of the nacelles in the OT is the source of the glow. It looks like it’s coming from the back of the nacelle when there’s plating covering the middle, because, uh, the middle is covered.

2 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

okay if I'm throwing out the A and such chances are I know each Enterprise and know those aren't all the same ship, but the A is a refit. Pretty sure it's supposed to be the same ship. You'd have to be really stupid to think the E was ever the original Enterprise. Like for real.

I didn't say they were the same ship, just said what ships they slapped the names onto. As ForgottenLore said the ship from TOS, the animated series (if that is canon), and films 1-3 is a Constitution Class with it getting a refit for the films as a Constitution Class Refit, then after being destroyed they gave the NCC-1701 name to another Constitution Class Refit to continue on the legacy of the Enterprise.

22 hours ago, eMeM said:

I'd say those aren't even the same engines judging by the size and the way they look with the glow at the end and not in the middle. Based on this and Rebels I think there was a late war or post war model with less armour, different engines, and remote controlled turret, and this is the one Rebels stripped down, not BTL-B.

Wookiee size for the LAAT/i is really strange and very likely wrong, this is one of the few ships that are constantly shown next to standing men of known height so calculating length should be easy, and just looking at pictures the old size, medium base, appears more close to "reality".

I wish eta-clas shuttle could fit on small base so it could be an agile arcdodging Jedi shuttle, length-wise it's okay but it might be too wide.

I always said those Y-wing were given the extra plating because it simply was easier to make in CGI than the Kitbashed Y-wings which were a whole mess of modeling parts.

That being said and puting bakc on Topic, I don't expect Republic Y-wings to be on a larger base or anything. A different model yes, a different designation and dial, IE Y-wing Armored Bomber, sure that is what they did with the YT-1300s why not. But still a small base ship much like Alliance and Scum Y-wings.

5 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

I don’t see how this is so confusing, i thought this picture really cleared things up.

The middle of the nacelles in the OT is the source of the glow. It looks like it’s coming from the back of the nacelle when there’s plating covering the middle, because, uh, the middle is covered.

I'm afraid that's not how light works, unless they installed a giant optical fiber cable.

5 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Retrofitting.

Rebels Y-wing, as in Republic/Imperial Y-wings in Rebels season 3 episode 1.

5 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

I didn't say they were the same ship, just said what ships they slapped the names onto. As ForgottenLore said the ship from TOS, the animated series (if that is canon), and films 1-3 is a Constitution Class with it getting a refit for the films as a Constitution Class Refit, then after being destroyed they gave the NCC-1701 name to another Constitution Class Refit to continue on the legacy of the Enterprise.

I know all that.

2 hours ago, eMeM said:

Rebels Y-wing, as in Republic/Imperial Y-wings in Rebels season 3 episode 1.

Hello, I'm Captain Lackwit, the officiate of the Star Wars Rebels thread.

I probably know.

19 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

They're definitely the same ship. You can see a lot of the ones from Rebels in its first appearance having many of the same lines on the primary hull, but lots removed. I'm pretty sure the long engines were mostly just cowls and armor, but for what precise purpose I can't be sure. But they're definitely the same model. They're intended to be, at least. If we were gonna' argue about this to the bitter end, I'm gonna' cite that somehow the NCC-1701 and the NCC-1701-A are the same ship. Mull over that.

I'm not actually sure this is a valid comparison.

Granted, there's going to be an element of Trigger's broom with it, but we know that the refit was laid down on the same keel as the original Enterprise. The refit may have new nacelles, a new deflector, new engine room and bridge interior but the engineering section and saucer sections are, outwardly, effectively identical to the original Enterprise. We know it is the same ship, despite all the changes.

But we don't actually know that it's the same 'model' anymore. It's still called the Constitution-class, but no one ever mentions that without immediately specifying that it's the refit version. The Yorktown (which becomes the Enterprise-A) was apparently built from the ground up, rather than refit from an earlier TOS style Constitution-class, so arguably the Constitution refit represents a new 'intermediate' class of its own.

While I see your point that Rebels appears to demonstrate that the Rebellion era Y-Wings are the same physical ships as the Clone Wars era Y-Wings, the extent of the modifications done to them could arguably be enough to shift them into a new 'class'.

Alternatively, the BTL-A4 represents a factory built class distinction (more like the F/A-18A vs the F/A-18B or even the F/A-18E) that is still based on essentially the same chassis and the modifications the Rebels do to the Clone Wars era Y-Wings are procedural to bring them in line with the BTL-A4 model, just as the refit Enterprise was basically to bring it in line with the newer generation 'Yorktown-class' Constitution ships. The Rebels could therefore have sourced their Y-Wings from converted BTL-Bs and factory built A4s (which makes more sense than the numbers we see in Rebels).

The thing that bugs me about the Clone Wars Y-Wing is not the length, or the engines or the armour but the turret . It's too different in construction and too differently placed to be a 'modification' on the part of the Rebels. It can only be a factory configured element - it requires basically swapping out the entire cockpit.

In Legends, the BTL-S3 and A4 were considered different models because one had a gunner seat, and even they were identical from the outside. The BTL-B's turret is more different even that. That's enough to give it a separate designation, IMO, even if actual hulls the Rebels used were converted.

6 hours ago, eMeM said:

I'm afraid that's not how light works, unless they installed a giant optical fiber cable.

I’m afraid that’s not how space science works.

7 hours ago, eMeM said:

I'm afraid that's not how light works, unless they installed a giant optical fiber cable.

Do you know that they didn't?

3 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

In Legends, the BTL-S3 and A4 were considered different models because one had a gunner seat, and even they were identical from the outside. The BTL-B's turret is more different even that. That's enough to give it a separate designation, IMO, even if actual hulls the Rebels used were converted.

Which one could detach the cockpit to use as a boat?

46 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Do you know that they didn't?

Which one could detach the cockpit to use as a boat?

It's clearly an A4, the turret is pointed backwards. S3's have them statically forward.

That seems like exactly the sort of thing Kenner would have put into one of their toys as well, or released on it's on as one of those micro-whatsits.

19 minutes ago, CaptainIxidor said:

It's clearly an A4, the turret is pointed backwards. S3's have them statically forward.

Other way around.

The A4 is the fixed version, the S3 is the two seater with the moveable turret.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Which one could detach the cockpit to use as a boat?

I mean, I doubt the animators on the holiday special where thinking of designation variants when they drew this, given that the first stats weren't given until the WEG games a decade later.

But it was retconned as being the S3, I believe, as it has two seats .

5 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Other way around.

The A4 is the fixed version, the S3 is the two seater with the moveable turret.

I mean, I doubt the animators on the holiday special where thinking of designation variants when they drew this, given that the first stats weren't given until the WEG games a decade later.

But it was retconned as being the S3, I believe, as it has two seats .

Actually, in legends I think A4 could lock it to one of the 4 main positions, so it could have faced backwards.

But yeah, it's probably S3. I got it flipped.

12 minutes ago, CaptainIxidor said:

Actually, in legends I think A4 could lock it to one of the 4 main positions, so it could have faced backwards.

But yeah, it's probably S3. I got it flipped.

S3 was 1.0, while A4 was 2.0?

yeah actually can we frakking talk about that? The A4 can't fit another mcdude in it, so why the **** do Rebels get a gunner slot? Should've been saved for clones.

Honestly I'd LIKE if that were changed later, even if gunners are nice to have on Y-Wings. They aren't exactly mandatory.

20 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

yeah actually can we frakking talk about that? The A4 can't fit another mcdude in it, so why the **** do Rebels get a gunner slot? Should've been saved for clones.

Honestly I'd LIKE if that were changed later, even if gunners are nice to have on Y-Wings. They aren't exactly mandatory.

Surely the Gunner just sits in the pilot's lap. The fact that the Gunner is probably a wookie just makes it that much cozier

On 10/16/2018 at 3:14 AM, Tvboy said:

I wonder if Republic is actually going to be synergy based though. I don't see why they would, I feel like the Republic hews closer to the Empire than the Rebellion in terms of faction identity, maintaining the focus on shields and survivability while maintaining a structured formalized military doctrine, with ace heroes (mostly Jedi) scattered about here and there.

It would make sense for the clones to have synergies to play on how tight they were as units. It feels like the perfect place for identical generics to gain bonuses when flying together. Maybe having the command designation clones being the named pilots acting as the leader of the squad.

IIRC, outwardly the A4 and S3 models looked the same, so presumably the single seater replaced the gunner's seat with some other system(s).

in rebels we saw two versions of the Y-wing..

the version obtained from Reklam Station, and which are said to be clone wars era fighters.

from the looks of it, these are a transitional variant between the BTL-B and the Original Trilogy models.

this is also one of the types apparently used by the Clones during the Ryloth Campaign, given that the one C1-10P was in when it was shot down still exists in the courtyards of hera's Hometown.

this version is also the type used in "The Antilles Extraction" in the simulator, which Sabine and Wedge take down before being ordered to destroy a transport, and blown up by a simulated version of the Ghost.

later we see Gold and Blue Squadrons in "Secret Cargo' and "Zero Hour" respectively using the Original Trilogy versions: (this is the Zero Hour version)

my guess is that the first version was a refit of the BTL-B, shortening its engines as well as giving it a different turret gun system. whether this was a factory level redesign or a field refit isn't possible to tell. personally i'd be inclined to say field refit. it still has a lot of the BTL-B's features, just with some extra paneling cleared away. the turret mount especially suggests field refit, since a factory level redesign would certainly have redone the canopy rather than leave the old turret ring intact. given that we're told in "The Forgotten Droid" (rebels season 2) that Y-wings are "twitchy" in atmospheric combat, i could see this hypothetical field refit being something done to help offset some of the BTL-B's flaws.. shorter engine sheaths (which in service would have full covers and not the partial plating seen in Rebels) would in theory make it less vulnerable to crosswinds and more responsive to the thrust vectoring vanes at the back of the engine nacelle, both of which could make it perform better in atmosphere, and the turret change would make the fighter better suited to ground strike mission, since the old ball turret couldn't easily be pointed at the same target as the nose guns.

the Original Trilogy versions are probably a dedicated build, perhaps based off such field refits. though the Rebellion obviously doesn't bother to put the cosmetic paneling on.

27 minutes ago, BVRCH said:

It would make sense for the clones to have synergies to play on how tight they were as units. It feels like the perfect place for identical generics to gain bonuses when flying together. Maybe having the command designation clones being the named pilots acting as the leader of the squad.

That or even have it so that the Republic's unique Talent is something like Brotherhood and is focused around clones and the like since the Jedi will have the Force slot instead so no weird issue of a Jedi flying with the talent.