Thanks in advance for your input. I am just trying to figure out how to use initiative.

PART ONE . Some general questions about initiative.

1) What squads need initiative most? For example... Do ace style lists want the highest initiative bid?

2) If my highest initiative pilot has the SAME initiative (Pilot Skill or PS in the old 1.0 game) as my opponents best pilot, and I have the better initiative bid, do I keep initiative or pass initiative to my opponent?

3) This question is probably matchup dependent but when should I GIVE AWAY initiative to my opponent and let them move first and fire first?

PART TWO . An Initiative example.

My squad has Boba Fett, 4-LOM and Palob with pilot initiative scores of 5, 3, 3. I am currently at 189pts (11pts for possible initiative bid). I know I want my bid to be at least 6pts, maybe even as hig as 10pts if im expecting to face lots of other Initiative 5 pilots.

1) What would be a good/strong initiative bid you would suggest?

2) When would you ever GIVE AWAY initiative?

39 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Thanks in advance for your input. I am just trying to figure out how to use initiative.

PART ONE . Some general questions about initiative.

1) What squads need initiative most? For example... Do ace style lists want the highest initiative bid?

2) If my highest initiative pilot has the SAME initiative (Pilot Skill or PS in the old 1.0 game) as my opponents best pilot, and I have the better initiative bid, do I keep initiative or pass initiative to my opponent?

3) This question is probably matchup dependent but when should I GIVE AWAY initiative to my opponent and let them move first and fire first?

3. If your list is dependant on a pilot ability or upgrade that overrides something that your opponents pilots or upgrades do and activates in the same phase step as their's, you want to go second. Their's gets applied first then yours if they are first player. I.E. Mux vs Roark trying to affect the same target. Which ever one is in your list, if your opponent has the other you want/need to be second to make sure the ability sticks. Same with Mux vs Heightened Perception force users (not popular currently, but something to keep in mind). If Mux's player is second player then he can override Heightened Perception, and vice versa if the player order is swapped.

Your opponent moving first can be a benefit to you normally since you can tailor your actions with better info than they had when they moved.

1) Right now mostly Initiative 5 aces that are getting a lot of their value from being able to reposition themselves either to dodge firing arcs (Luke, Guri, etc.) or Initiative 5 ships that are very expensive and can't afford to have their arcs getting dodged by other I5 aces (Dash, Lando, Boba, Chiraneau) OR I5 ordnance carriers that need a lock to fire their weapons and want to move after their I5 opponents so that they are within range during their perform action step on the first approach (Redline, Norra, Airen Cracken, some Lukes, etc).

2) If you win the bid and your best initiative ties with their highest initiative, you want to give them first player 95% of the time so that your opponent's best ship has to make their decisions about actions before your best ships reveals its maneuver dial. When you are moving last, you have perfect information about what the battlefield will look like during the engagement phase while you are choosing your actions, so you can barrel roll or boost and know that your opponent can't do anything about it, or you can lock a ship and know that it isn't going to move out of your firing arc when it reveals its maneuver dial.

3) The only time you really want to give up initiative is when you're both playing a high number of low maneuverability ships that are mostly just going to be jousting (so that you can move first and try to block them to deny their dice) or because you and your opponent have abilities that trigger at the same time and you want their ability to trigger first. A classic example that I know off the top of my head is if you have Guri and they have Vader crew. You want Guri to trigger first so that if she has to use her action on something other than calculate, she'll have a green token to give to Vader instead of always taking a damage. Though if they have an initiative 5 ships in their squad, it's probably better to just give them first player anyway so you can arc-dodge them with Guri.

So I have an example to go over the possibilities and reasons with the same list.

My list:

Priority Targeting

(52) "Whisper"
(5) Director Krennic
(4) Juke
(3) Fire-Control System
Points 64

(50) "Echo"
(4) Juke
(14) Darth Vader
(5) Collision Detector
Points 73

(52) Soontir Fel
(6) Outmaneuver
Points 58

Total points: 195

so I’ve got a 4,5, and 6. Soontir really loves moving last. Honestly Whisper doesn’t hate it either. Yet in all but one match I took initiative (at 5 points I always had the choice). Why?

Well my first two matches had 4-lom and Palob, then 4-Lom and Boba. My next two had Redline and Whisper, one with two bombers, the other Rexler.

So why give initiative? Because abilities triggering. Soontir always had last move. So no problem. But lots of I5’s. With that I could block often, Vader before Palob could steal or 0-0-0 gives a token. I also could Juke freely. And that was key later. With Whisper on Whisper, both with Juke, shooting first is a benefit. Because then I know I have my Evade, get to shoot with full mods, and then my opponent often has to decide to remove their Evade or take an extra damage. Meanwhile I usually get a second Evade token. It makes it much more likely to push damage, and frees me to spend my Evade on defense.

Because once you spend it on defense, your offense suffers.

So shooting first, despite the more possibility of being arc dodged, was to my advantage. I got to guarantee my modifiers would fire. And a Juke Defender is a lot less scary with no tokens. Even if I don’t do damage, it is enough.

Admittedly this is a weird case, whether I want initiative or want second player, will vary from match to match with this list. It all depends on what systems and engagement phase abilities everyone has. And if there are any I6’s.

12 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Because abilities triggering.

Just beat me to this

The ships I like to use often receive advantages from shooting 1st. Moving last will often offer bigger advantages but I think it helps to really be prepared to move 1st and make use of the different edge it can give you. Someone is always going to outbid you at some point.

Not to mention the blocking potential ofc.

I like to practice moving 1st against higher I, working out where I can best put my ships according to their available moves. If you can move so that their only move to get you in arc is red, you can give yourself an edge in the following phases.

1 hour ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

1) What squads need initiative most? For example... Do ace style lists want the highest initiative bid?

...Having the initiative means moving first and shooting first.

Moving last and shooting last is good because:

• You get to lock onto a target which has already moved (meaning it has (a) already moved into range 1-3 and (b) you know it'll be in your arc of fire.
• You get to use boost or barrel roll to 'shimmy' out of an attackers arc of fire or line up a shot, or rotate/reinforce an appropriate arc against a known final position.
• Because your opponent has already attacked, if you still have a token left you know you can spend it freely without worrying about rolling (for example) three eyeballs on a defence roll afterwards.
• Your abilities trigger last (good for Old Teroch, who wipes the board of all green tokens assigned to a ship)

Moving first and shooting first is good because:

• Blocking - you're moving with a known board state, so you should (in theory) never collide with anything.
• Because you shoot first, you know you'll have your focus token available when you shoot, and your attack may force your opponent to spend their token on defence rather than attacking you.
• Any "when you attack" triggers go off before your opponent can do anything (jamming beam, hotshot gunner, Turr Phennir's post-attack-boost
• Your abilities trigger first (good for stealing tokens before your opponent can do anything with them)

In terms of 'lower initiative' squads - as in a mass of generics, then you're basically buying:

• Weight of numbers - never underestimate how nasty an extra attack after your opponent has used up their once-per-turn defence tricks is.
• Blocking - a death trap for action-dependent ships
• Positioning - no matter how high initiative a pilot is, they can only be in one place and only cover one area with their arc of fire. Having two ships instead lets you create mutually supporting kill zones where there's nowhere to hide.
• Expendability - ultimately, you can trade a non-ace ship for an ace (or even just a large chunk of an ace) and come out on top, and they're often no easier to kill in terms of raw agility or hit points.
• Avoiding chasing the elusive 'best' initiative - because 'better' or 'worse' initiative is a binary thing, there's nothing worse than spending a lot of points on an I5 ace and a sizeable initiative bid and then seeing Vader and Fel set up opposite you. Accepting you're going last and spending the points on hardware can't be 'wasted' in the same way.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Avoiding chasing the elusive 'best' initiative - because 'better' or 'worse' initiative is a binary thing, there's nothing worse than spending a lot of points on an I5 ace and a sizeable initiative bid and then seeing Vader and Fel set up opposite you. Accepting you're going last and spending the points on hardware can't be 'wasted' in the same way.

This is a huge point imo. The list I'm thinking of moving to is 3 I5 ships, 2 of which probably benefit a lot more from moving last than shooting 1st.

The 3rd is Redline, who has the possibility of benefiting from both situations. He can load up on tools and block very effectively OR reactively reposition and grab locks easier.

Either way, I'm not experienced enough to really understand and maximise one way or the other but it is a big factor in how I consider my squad composition. Personally, I lean towards extra tools, but I couldn't say whether that's going to be better over multiple games or not.

The only universally correct answer is "It depends."

At Crossroads, I knew that there would be double digit bids and I6's everywhere: in fact, only one list I faced contained no I6, as well as no bid. Knowing that I would lose the bid war, I leaned into it. Soontir is an amazing blocker against Soontir, and double juke adds extra value to evade tokens, especially when Rexlar is giving other I5's conditions. My opponents would always give me init (Yes, please!), and the only person it would not bite back was Alex Skittle.

My first loss on Stream was where I won the init roll and decided to pass it, fearing the boost out of arc at R1 and murder with the marauder Han shot. As one can tell, it was a poor decision with his calculates and Hans added to my fear of getting blocked. In the rematch on Day 2, with the initiative that would trigger before Han as well as the ability to block, I tabled him.

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Avoiding chasing the elusive 'best' initiative - because 'better' or 'worse' initiative is a binary thing, there's nothing worse than spending a lot of points on an I5 ace and a sizeable initiative bid and then seeing Vader and Fel set up opposite you. Accepting you're going last and spending the points on hardware can't be 'wasted' in the same way.

This has been my philosophy so far in 2.0. I've seen players depend entire on not going first just lose because a) they ran Boba with an 10 point bid and faced Vader, og b) they ran Boba and a 10 point bid and faced Boba with an 11 point bid. I prefer to spend all 200 points, and build and practice as if I am the first player (which I usually am). I think 2.0, in general, is less initiative dependent (meaning PS in 1.0 terms) than the previous, and pilots such as Whisper, Rexler, Redline, Thane, Ketsu, Teroch and to a lesser extent Luke and Soontir don't mind moving first all that much. Been running 200 point squads with combinations of Whisper, Redline and Rexler for a month now, going 4-0 in one tournament and 3-1 in another, and really, going first is no problem if you're prepared for it, both in squad building and tactics.

I6 pilots are fairly rare, so if you're mainly running those and I1-3 wingmen, wouldn't bother with a bid at all. Vader really likes going first, but he also hates being blocked, and with his hit > crit targeting computer, he doesn't strictly have to go after other I6 pilots. Just point him at that Y-Wing and hit it with a bunch of crits before it shoots. Your Lambda and Bombers should herd Wedge and Fenn, make sure that if they can sneak up on Vader, then they'll be hit in the flank with a barrage of, well, Barrage Missiles.

I'm getting to think Boba + Guri is less of an ideal matchup than Boba + Teroch. With the former, versus a list featuring Luke, Thane, Whisper or Rexler, you need your opponent to move first unless you are absolutely amazing at predicting dials. With Teroch in there, you don't mind as much, since blocking aces, stripping tokens and firing on lower I wingmen works just as well when you go first.

15 minutes ago, Okapi said:

I'm getting to think Boba + Guri is less of an ideal matchup than Boba + Teroch. With the former, versus a list featuring Luke, Thane, Whisper or Rexler, you need your opponent to move first unless you are absolutely amazing at predicting dials.

Guri is one of the ships I actually fear most when it comes to moving 1st against them. Lots of others, less so. She has that ability to turn on a sixpence in several directions, with her reposition. Thing is, knowing that, you give her room and hope your opponent leans into her linked focus. Does that sound about right?

Kinda makes my Boba/Guri plan boil down to 'Run Away'

2 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Guri is one of the ships I actually fear most when it comes to moving 1st against them. Lots of others, less so. She has that ability to turn on a sixpence in several directions, with her reposition. Thing is, knowing that, you give her room and hope your opponent leans into her linked focus. Does that sound about right?

Kinda makes my Boba/Guri plan boil down to 'Run Away'

She's good but not as good as she was.

Her initiative has gone right up (which is amazing if you're chasing the "I move last and dodge your shot" technique), but whilst the microthrusters barrel roll makes her hellishly manoeuvrable, the Continuously Pinwheeling Cybernetic Ninja doesn't actually move that far. Because autothrusters (as was) is no longer a thing, engaging her from range 3 actually works, and if you can aim to put her at the edge of range 2-3, she's too deep in an arc of fire to easily dodge it.

4 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

She's good but not as good as she was.

Her initiative has gone right up (which is amazing if you're chasing the "I move last and dodge your shot" technique), but whilst the microthrusters barrel roll makes her hellishly manoeuvrable, the Continuously Pinwheeling Cybernetic Ninja doesn't actually move that far. Because autothrusters (as was) is no longer a thing, engaging her from range 3 actually works, and if you can aim to put her at the edge of range 2-3, she's too deep in an arc of fire to easily dodge it.

Absolutely. Same goes for Boba, who is also a) an amazing knife fighter, b) really really wants to move last, and c) kind of mediocre at range 2-3. When playing against that list, especially if you move first, hit them with ordnance at long range, then dial in 5-straights and 3-turns, boost & roll away and disengage. It's a good list, to be sure, but if facing something like protorp Wedge + Dutch or 3+ TIE Bombers, they have their work cut out for them.

6 hours ago, millertime059 said:

So I have an example to go over the possibilities and reasons with the same list.

My list:

Priority Targeting

(52) "Whisper"
(5) Director Krennic
(4) Juke
(3) Fire-Control System
Points 64

(50) "Echo"
(4) Juke
(14) Darth Vader
(5) Collision Detector
Points 73

(52) Soontir Fel
(6) Outmaneuver
Points 58

Total points: 195

so I’ve got a 4,5, and 6. Soontir really loves moving last. Honestly Whisper doesn’t hate it either. Yet in all but one match I took initiative (at 5 points I always had the choice). Why?

Well my first two matches had 4-lom and Palob, then 4-Lom and Boba. My next two had Redline and Whisper, one with two bombers, the other Rexler.

So why give initiative? Because abilities triggering. Soontir always had last move. So no problem. But lots of I5’s. With that I could block often, Vader before Palob could steal or 0-0-0 gives a token. I also could Juke freely. And that was key later. With Whisper on Whisper, both with Juke, shooting first is a benefit. Because then I know I have my Evade, get to shoot with full mods, and then my opponent often has to decide to remove their Evade or take an extra damage. Meanwhile I usually get a second Evade token. It makes it much more likely to push damage, and frees me to spend my Evade on defense.

Because once you spend it on defense, your offense suffers.

So shooting first, despite the more possibility of being arc dodged, was to my advantage. I got to guarantee my modifiers would fire. And a Juke Defender is a lot less scary with no tokens. Even if I don’t do damage, it is enough.

Admittedly this is a weird case, whether I want initiative or want second player, will vary from match to match with this list. It all depends on what systems and engagement phase abilities everyone has. And if there are any I6’s.

I like this list. I'm stealing it. ?

3 hours ago, Okapi said:

Absolutely. Same goes for Boba, who is also a) an amazing knife fighter, b) really really wants to move last, and c) kind of mediocre at range 2-3. When playing against that list, especially if you move first, hit them with ordnance at long range, then dial in 5-straights and 3-turns, boost & roll away and disengage. It's a good list, to be sure, but if facing something like protorp Wedge + Dutch or 3+ TIE Bombers, they have their work cut out for them.

As I thought. Which is kind of a conundrum for me as I mostly look to get in close against high initiative (or ordnance) and be awkward to target. I favour highly manoeuverable ships myself.

Works well against lots of things but lots of Scum kind of welcome that approach so I need to learn there.

3 hours ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

I like this list. I'm stealing it. ?

Good luck. It’s a fun, and very effective, list. I won a tournament yesterday with it, and in each game at least one ship had never taken damage.

But be warned, it is not a particularly forgiving list if you screw up. Get bumped, get stressed (by 4-lom for example), get inside range 1 of Boba (it lives for range 2)? Those will likely lose you ships.

But if you can control range, set positions, and force your opponent to scatter guns? It has the tools and ability to beat anything. Boba 4-lom, or 4-lom Palob _should_ be bad matchups for it, but I was able to beat both, against players whose only loss in the tournament was to me. So try it, but be warned, it doesn’t fly like anything else I’ve used. Try spacing your ships evenly across the front edge, and delay and weave, force your opponent to commit one way or the other, using rocks to break their formations.

And remember just because you can decloak, doesn’t mean you must.

1 hour ago, millertime059 said:

Good luck. It’s a fun, and very effective, list. I won a tournament yesterday with it, and in each game at least one ship had never taken damage.

But be warned, it is not a particularly forgiving list if you screw up. Get bumped, get stressed (by 4-lom for example), get inside range 1 of Boba (it lives for range 2)? Those will likely lose you ships.

But if you can control range, set positions, and force your opponent to scatter guns? It has the tools and ability to beat anything. Boba 4-lom, or 4-lom Palob _should_ be bad matchups for it, but I was able to beat both, against players whose only loss in the tournament was to me. So try it, but be warned, it doesn’t fly like anything else I’ve used. Try spacing your ships evenly across the front edge, and delay and weave, force your opponent to commit one way or the other, using rocks to break their formations.

And remember just because you can decloak, doesn’t mean you must.

I've yet to try any Phantoms, ever - lol, so this will be a challenge, but that's why I like it. Playing in your comfort zone just gets boring. I'm a big fan of delay tactics and forcing the opponent to make moves they don't want to make, creating openings for other ships. It really does look like a fun list - will report back once I give it a go. And thanks for the tips!