18 minutes ago, JBento said:

Fantastic. But if you WAITED, then the start of your turn is gone. Wait doesn't give you an extra turn, it gives you an action outside of your turn. So that action is bupkiss.

Oh, I thought you were referring to the real turn and not the Wait action.

@JBento pelting arrow is a pain to deal with. for sure. and one of the best strife giving tool in the game i think (weirdly enough...).

again, there is counterplay, don't stand close to each others.

porbably need to equip all those mobs and enemies i put in the game with crazy **** techniques like that, because in the "monster" sections, they sure don't have that.

maybe i just have to accept the fact that this rpg is built like a card game. there is only a few majorly kick **** "action" and you have to consider they will always be there.

it really put every style/weapon into a specific super strong role.

i am really not sure how i'm liking this as a whole... but yeah, no doubt now that is how the game is built.

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

Oh, I thought you were referring to the real turn and not the Wait action.

I'm still unsure if you can Unmask at the end of the Wait-spawned action. I'm AFB until Friday, so I can't check, but I think not. The thing is apparently getting errata'd/reworded, though, so I guess I'd have to check the NEW version?

You probably can't, though.

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

@JBento pelting arrow is a pain to deal with. for sure. and one of the best strife giving tool in the game i think (weirdly enough...).

again, there is counterplay, don't stand close to each others.

But you're not splitting up decently before the opponents act because you just, you know, Waited.

9 minutes ago, JBento said:

But you're not splitting up decently before the opponents act because you just, you know, Waited.

you can move before "waiting".

the free 1 range band move that isnt an action.

but lets not argue about that.

i think i made my mind, this rpg is very "hard counter" based.

not sure how i like it... feels like a card/board game in which every abilities is game changing but then you have a counter to it.

edit: not every abilities. but a few "busted" ones...

on another subject, I haven't included shugenja in my test games yet. neither as pc, nor npc, as we just deal with the rest of the rule for now.

though, i am starting to read the chapter.

2 things, right at the beginning that confuses me a bit:

-you know the thing if you keep 3 strifes then you anger the kami etc... and there is an "effect" for all elements. I don't understand how the Air one works; "choose 2 characters within range as target" now, if I read the air invocations, I find this gets really weird... sometimes targets are "positions" or sometimes they are "yourself" I really don't feel this choose extra characters as target is applicable most of the time...

and then Fire, it simply does what Air does, but on everybody (allies and enemies). again, this is just weird. sure it does work with some invocations but for others it is hard to figure out how to make that work. the second thing on fire (inflame terrain) is cool.

water and earth are fine.

-the other thing is the "prepared invocations". are prepared invocations also Wards ? or are they 2 separate things.

if prepared invocation is its own thing, if i understand right, you basically roll composure instead of theology(which would be the invocation check). and spend what ingredient ?? same as if you do a ward ? (which seems to make sense).

anyway, just wanted to hear how people understand these few points.

Yup, the Fire backlash is simply worse than the Air backlash, most of the time. However, particularly with all the "cast on yourself" invocations I would simply have them buff any two nearby enemies. Perhaps withing Range 0-Air or so. For Fire, where it simply affects everyone in range, rather than two additional targets, I would not.

Wards are a special case of Prepared Invocations. Check the Yogo Wardmaster school - that says that they can have additional Wards as Prepared Invocations.
Actually, rather than calling them a special case, I'd call them a worked example of Prepared Invocations.

For making a Prepared Invocation as a potion, like an Agasha would, I would therefore look at wards for reference and come up with something like this:
Medicine, using a glass vial (worth 5 bu) and a medicine kit (because it contains herbs'n'stuff) rather than Composition and the calligraphy kit and parchment.

8 minutes ago, Myrion said:

Yup, the Fire backlash is simply worse than the Air backlash, most of the time. However, particularly with all the "cast on yourself" invocations I would simply have them buff any two nearby enemies. Perhaps withing Range 0-Air or so. For Fire, where it simply affects everyone in range, rather than two additional targets, I would not.

Wards are a special case of Prepared Invocations. Check the Yogo Wardmaster school - that says that they can have additional Wards as Prepared Invocations.
Actually, rather than calling them a special case, I'd call them a worked example of Prepared Invocations.

For making a Prepared Invocation as a potion, like an Agasha would, I would therefore look at wards for reference and come up with something like this:
Medicine, using a glass vial (worth 5 bu) and a medicine kit (because it contains herbs'n'stuff) rather than Composition and the calligraphy kit and parchment.

ok I see, so all this is very open to interpretation.

what you say is kinda of what I had in mind. I just wanted to make sure because i find it not very well explained. it is understandable though, just a bit weird in its current written form. basically "ward" is the example of what you could do with it.

for the backlash, worst comes to worst I would just have made everything like the earth; terrain imbalance. simpler. but yeah, sometimes the current backlash can make for fun moments i suppose. still feel like they should be more "examples" than "official backlash" and let the GM a bit more power over what happens.

I mean, the rules are always malleable and up to the GM. There are few things that are set in stone and not to be changed if it suits the plot.

However, if you want a simple one, I'd go for something that might knock everyone down. Basically a strong blast of wind around the caster. Much more fun than Elemental Imbalance.

23 minutes ago, Myrion said:

I mean, the rules are always malleable and up to the GM. There are few things that are set in stone and not to be changed if it suits the plot.

However, if you want a simple one, I'd go for something that might knock everyone down. Basically a strong blast of wind around the caster. Much more fun than Elemental Imbalance.

im cool with the effect as written, will keep it as is. but yeah, i'd wish it was more "examples" than "that IS the effect" though like you said.. you certainly can GM it as such, if you advise the players.

4 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

you can move before "waiting".

the free 1 range band move that isnt an action.

but lets not argue about that.

i think i made my mind, this rpg is very "hard counter" based.

not sure how i like it... feels like a card/board game in which every abilities is game changing but then you have a counter to it.

edit: not every abilities. but a few "busted" ones...

If you move before waiting, don't expect to get much done with your first of the two back-to-back actions as a melee character. Unless your opponents are confident they can do enough to you to be worth it, they'll make sure you need to move in order to attack them.

17 hours ago, Myrion said:

Yup, the Fire backlash is simply worse than the Air backlash, most of the time. However, particularly with all the "cast on yourself" invocations I would simply have them buff any two nearby enemies. Perhaps withing Range 0-Air or so. For Fire, where it simply affects everyone in range, rather than two additional targets, I would not.

Wards are a special case of Prepared Invocations. Check the Yogo Wardmaster school - that says that they can have additional Wards as Prepared Invocations.
Actually, rather than calling them a special case, I'd call them a worked example of Prepared Invocations.

For making a Prepared Invocation as a potion, like an Agasha would, I would therefore look at wards for reference and come up with something like this:
Medicine, using a glass vial (worth 5 bu) and a medicine kit (because it contains herbs'n'stuff) rather than Composition and the calligraphy kit and parchment.

This. It's an open-ended way to create healing/skill/flashbomb "potions" and "Scrolls" from invocations you know.

Added to the importune invocations (which is actually a way for a shujenga to use invocations they don't know, at a price) it makes even a low level shujenga very flexible in the hands of a creative player.

If you're prepared to sacrifice appropriate things to offerings, you can have some scary stuff up your sleeve at critical moments.

I'm a tad disappointed that a Shugenja can only have one prepared invocation, with only the Wardmasters getting a few more. The Agasha f.ex. should be able to have quite a few potions on them, I think.

7 minutes ago, Myrion said:

I'm a tad disappointed that a Shugenja can only have one prepared invocation, with only the Wardmasters getting a few more. The Agasha f.ex. should be able to have quite a few potions on them, I think.

they could also give 2 or 3 potions to each of their friends!

the rule is strict, indeed. but probably for the better...

Yes, that would be half the point.

I might try to allow school rank * PIs for all Shugenja and the Yogo just get another school rank worth of wards.

2 hours ago, Myrion said:

I'm a tad disappointed that a Shugenja can only have one prepared invocation, with only the Wardmasters getting a few more. The Agasha f.ex. should be able to have quite a few potions on them, I think.

I trade Agasha not having many potions for them having a better version of Transmute as a school skill. I always liked that aspect of the Dragon shugenja much more than the "they make potions and fireworks" part.

I really like their school ability too!

I just also like the idea of them making fireworks and potions.

2 minutes ago, Myrion said:

I really like their school ability too!

I just also like the idea of them making fireworks and potions.

well they can make 1 magic potion (the kami are not that generous!)

they can make as may "non-magic" as they want, if you want to include some alchemy rules with some effects etc. with plant ingredients or what not.

On 10/28/2018 at 8:31 AM, Myrion said:

Yup, the Fire backlash is simply worse than the Air backlash, most of the time. However, particularly with all the "cast on yourself" invocations I would simply have them buff any two nearby enemies. Perhaps withing Range 0-Air or so. For Fire, where it simply affects everyone in range, rather than two additional targets, I would not.

Wards are a special case of Prepared Invocations. Check the Yogo Wardmaster school - that says that they can have additional Wards as Prepared Invocations.
Actually, rather than calling them a special case, I'd call them a worked example of Prepared Invocations.

For making a Prepared Invocation as a potion, like an Agasha would, I would therefore look at wards for reference and come up with something like this:
Medicine, using a glass vial (worth 5 bu) and a medicine kit (because it contains herbs'n'stuff) rather than Composition and the calligraphy kit and parchment.

Had a phoenix player use the backlash for good effect... told his allies to stay away from the cluster of baddies, taunted them (to draw them in) then on his next turn, kept 7 strife (4 ring, +1 from void, 3 explosives, total of 6 Success 4 oppand 7 $trife... on Fires from Within 4+3+7 base for ranges 0-3...

Another point (earlier), he intentionally kept for backlash to hit the entire party with biting steel for the scene... Kept 2 Explosive+Strife, 1 Opp + Strife, and rolled another 2 opp... adding 3 to damage for the scene. Sure, he couldn't fire-___ anyone else for the scene, but a party of 7 PC's all doing 3 extra for the scene adds up fast.

Only water is problematic - unless you restrict yourself to spells where 2 extra targets is useful and only allies are in range... Which same said player also has done.

You can always cook up a title "Agasha Potionmaster" and slap something similar to wardmasters on it.

11 minutes ago, Myrion said:

I really like their school ability too!

I just also like the idea of them making fireworks and potions.

Yeah, though the family that really doubled down on the "fireworks and potions" were the Tamori. The Agasha were always all about transmuting the elements.

You can actually create your character in 5E named Agasha Tamori and eventually get a ninjo about founding a school about more practical applications in alchemy lol

3 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

Had a phoenix player use the backlash for good effect... told his allies to stay away from the cluster of baddies, taunted them (to draw them in) then on his next turn, kept 7 strife (4 ring, +1 from void, 3 explosives, total of 6 Success 4 oppand 7 $trife... on Fires from Within 4+3+7 base for ranges 0-3...

Another point (earlier), he intentionally kept for backlash to hit the entire party with biting steel for the scene... Kept 2 Explosive+Strife, 1 Opp + Strife, and rolled another 2 opp... adding 3 to damage for the scene. Sure, he couldn't fire-___ anyone else for the scene, but a party of 7 PC's all doing 3 extra for the scene adds up fast.

Only water is problematic - unless you restrict yourself to spells where 2 extra targets is useful and only allies are in range... Which same said player also has done.

yeah, backlash rules are a bit weird.. they can be "good" for you. I don't really like it. I always thought they should only be examples and that the DM chose the effect; more surprise!

the player should not be able to "know" what the kami's backlash will be... thats just wrong.

anyway, i'm letting my shugenja players know that "the GM chose the backlash". if it is an NPC that created the backlash, i'm letting them choose (within the examples available in the book, or similar power level).

@sndwurks

we should ditch that thread/topic in the new rule section too..

these subforums when you have like 50 people participating on the forums lol.. overkill !

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

yeah, backlash rules are a bit weird.. they can be "good" for you. I don't really like it. I always though they should only be example and that the DM chose the effect; more surprise!

the player should not be able to "know" what the kami's backlash will be.

its a bit of weak part of the system imo.

Might I suggest, since you clearly dislike so much in this edition, you play an older edition? After all, they're almost entirely up in legit PDF...

Or even just port the dice mechanic over - one opp becomes one raise, one success per 5 TN.

It's a fine mechanic, because the functional backlash is universally "Kami of (ring used) stop listening to you for a while"... Which may be beneficial if prepared for, sacrificial if not, and because of the dice mechanic, entirely avoidable, albeit at the cost of not casting... tho' it is possible to be forced to take a strife. (you are required to keep 1 die; you can always keep just 1, higher ring and void and help allow keeping more, but don't require doing so.

Just now, AK_Aramis said:

Might I suggest, since you clearly dislike so much in this edition, you play an older edition? After all, they're almost entirely up in legit PDF...

Or even just port the dice mechanic over - one opp becomes one raise, one success per 5 TN.

It's a fine mechanic, because the functional backlash is universally "Kami of (ring used) stop listening to you for a while"... Which may be beneficial if prepared for, sacrificial if not, and because of the dice mechanic, entirely avoidable, albeit at the cost of not casting... tho' it is possible to be forced to take a strife. (you are required to keep 1 die; you can always keep just 1, higher ring and void and help allow keeping more, but don't require doing so.

they definitely made a lot of weird decisions with this edition, and mistakes, and lack of judgement when it came down to details. it is after all more similar to a 1st/ edition, new game, than a fifth edition, since it reboots all the rules.

but i still believe the underlying system is super interesting. and i mean it.

in the case of backlashes, i simply found that the "functional/always the same" backlashes a bit more boring than... unexpected ones. but they definitely are not game breaking...

and since you clearly dislike me and my heavy critical outlook, might I suggest you put me on "ignore" ?