1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

you can strike with earth too. and maybe crit him and win one shot.

Maybe you can. And if you know that you are facing a fire bushi who is going to rely on whittling through your health, that is a good tactic.

It is almost as though predicting what you opponent is going to do is an advantage in duels. And like acting in one predictable manner with no back up is a disadvantage.

13 minutes ago, Amanda the Panda said:

Maybe you can. And if you know that you are facing a fire bushi who is going to rely on whittling through your health, that is a good tactic.

It is almost as though predicting what you opponent is going to do is an advantage in duels. And like acting in one predictable manner with no back up is a disadvantage.

the point system is your answer to the dueling rules. basically, you are saying "doesnt matter if i don't crit, i'm going to strike first, whittle you down, lower your fatigue, and win by points. even if you ended maiming my arm at the end".

and you know what? as per the rule. that works. i am not contradicting that at all! thats how i see it too (even if not my prefered/imagined way for it to work).

but when earlier in this thread we mentioned that duels are about strike-strike-strike, we got HATE. from other people, saying that duels should be one strike, clean, iaido etc.

because "its Avatar who said it", it was "wrong"...

so if i find somebody agreeing with your conclusion, that gave us heat because we mentioned duels are about "mini skirmishes" (which in fact is the ORIGINAL POST on this thread) I feel a lot of hypocrisy.

I said previously that strike-strike-strike is a valid option, and probly the way a Hida or Daidoji will want to approach a match - they don't practice Iaido or care about ceremony, why would they wait? Those strikes are gonna generate strife for the Hida/Daidoji though. It's in the interest of a Kakita or Bayushi to play the composure game, don't roll dice - bump your TN or defenses - lock the opponent out of their best rings - use Schemes or Shuji to cause/manage strife - and, specifically for Kakita, score your points for the highest severity crit strike. Mirumoto duelists could go either way.

I don't believe one tactic being valid wholly invalidates the other.

Just now, Avatar111 said:

the point system is your answer to the dueling rules. basically, you are saying "doesnt matter if i don't crit, i'm going to strike first, whittle you down, lower your fatigue, and win by points. even if i finishing the duel with a maimed arm".

and you know what? as per the rule. that works.

but when earlier in this thread we mentioned that duels are about strike-strike-strike, we got HATE. from other people, saying that duels should be one strike, clean, iaido etc.

because "its Avatar who said it", it was "wrong".

i feel a bunch of hypocrites in here if they agree with your point of view.

If they tell you that you are wrong, just because you said it, then they are wrong. You are not wrong for wanting things a certain way. No body is wrong for being dissatisfied with what we have been presented, or wanting to write a different system for use in their games.

I prefer the one strike approach, because that is what l5r has always been about. These rules seem to be written more with a view that multiple strikes are legitimate, if imperfect. Narratively, I would describe fire bushi as making a series of aggressive stances that wear down the opponent physically. Just as I would describe the draw action as preparing to draw rather than actually puling out the blade. I am aware that I am pulling things out of my *** there to make the mechanics fit with the setting I want, but that seems to be what this edition is about.

I don't really like the points system myself. Iaijutsu has always been a decisive art mechanically in the past. I see them as a concession to the duel ending the round the objective takes place, rather than the moment, and assume that the ending at the end of the round is supposed to represent a Mirumoto/Kakita situation where the strikes are milliseconds apart. Doing the maths, most of the time, the winner will be the one who achieves the objective first, but it still doesn't sit right with me.

I would also love to see some rules for tournament dueling, where a flag is cut, rather than an opponent. One could represent this with a duel to first strike, but as there is no way to lessen the severity of a crit (unless you are a kakita) it is poorly represented when the most likely option in a duel is losing an arm.

10 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

I said previously that strike-strike-strike is a valid option, and probly the way a Hida or Daidoji will want to approach a match - they don't practice Iaido or care about ceremony, why would they wait? Those strikes are gonna generate strife for the Hida/Daidoji though. It's in the interest of a Kakita or Bayushi to play the composure game, don't roll dice - bump your TN or defenses - lock the opponent out of their best rings - use Schemes or Shuji to cause/manage strife - and, specifically for Kakita, score your points for the highest severity crit strike. Mirumoto duelists could go either way.

I don't believe one tactic being valid wholly invalidates the other.

all legit.

doesn't make kakita or mirumoto "good duelists" though. they are same as other (if not worst in case of a lower rank Kakita that doesnt have heartpiercing strike yet).

remember, your Kakita have probably 6 or 8 composure... he can't stay in there for too long (because you lose strife at beginning of duel rounds, and it is exponential). he basically can't roll anything aside one strike. and he needs to do it early enough before he lose composure.

while earth dude, is gaining point for hitting you first, and gaining point for hitting you again, and you know what? you wont crit him because he is in earth stance, so you need to spend one round on predicting also.

so how do you win again ?

you are hoping that you can do:

first round (-1 strife): air-center

second round(-2 strife): air-predict earth

third round(-3 strife): best ring- iaijutsu cut. (at this point the opponent probably took air because you have no choice but to strike and he cannot take earth so you have +1TN, or if hes smart, hes got lot more composure than you, so he bid to win that initiative, took fire, gave you a small taunt and made you lose 2 strife..)

and remember, if you accumulate strife on your strike (very likely at this point) and you go over your composure, he interrupt your blow with a finishing blow. ooooof.

9 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

all legit.

doesn't make kakita or mirumoto "good duelists" though. they are same as other (if not worst in case of a lower rank Kakita that doesnt have heartpiercing strike yet).

remember, your Kakita have probably 6 or 8 composure... he can't stay in there for too long (because you lose strife at beginning of duel rounds, and it is exponential). he basically can't roll anything aside one strike. and he needs to do it early enough before he lose composure.

while earth dude, is gaining point for hitting you first, and gaining point for hitting you again, and you know what? you wont crit him because he is in earth stance, so you need to spend one round on predicting also.

so how do you win again ?

Well, if I am a Kakita, I am Earth 3 anyhow (I could be Fire 3 I guess, but why would I not be super traditional?) so I might well be the Earth dude. A Mirumoto Can start at Earth 3 and Water 2 very easily, and still be the king of keeping their cool.

I would disagree that there is no autowin duel strategy. The Heartpiercing Alpha Nuke is essentially undefeatable unless someone brings a maxed-out Hida ÜberTank into the fight who can reliably soak 6+ severity or the nuker botches the Initiative Check.

Heartpiercing Strike is the real reason to fear Kakita and Mirumoto, since I believe both are encouraged to buy it.

edit: I don't think characters who build to be good at duels should be significantly worse than the "Duelist" schools, but the "Duelist" schools are actively encouraged to buy the things that make them better in duels, and other schools just aren't.

The nuker needs to get their sword out first.

Just now, WHW said:

The nuker needs to get their sword out first.

Water stance for the win!

Heartpiercing Strike works only out of Fire stance.

1 minute ago, WHW said:

Heartpiercing Strike works only out of Fire stance.

Oh, well then - you are screwed. Predict Fire shuts you right down

There are only following ways to get first turn crits:

- Water Stance Crit. available since rank one
- Finishing Blow/Rising Cut
- Iaijutsu Cut --> Breath of the Wind Style --> Veiled Menace Style. Minimum rank: four.

9 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I would disagree that there is no autowin duel strategy. The Heartpiercing Alpha Nuke is essentially undefeatable unless someone brings a maxed-out Hida ÜberTank into the fight who can reliably soak 6+ severity or the nuker botches the Initiative Check.

yes, already mentioned that earlier, at higher rank, Heartpiercing, Lady's Doji Decree, make a kakita, good.

11 minutes ago, WHW said:

The nuker needs to get their sword out first.

...and thank God for that!

Of course, some might allow them to do it by virtue of Fast Reflexes [i know its uick, but my button is dead] narrative perk advantage.

But yeah, most of the strategies come online turn 2 or later.

22 minutes ago, WHW said:

Of course, some might allow them to do it by virtue of Fast Reflexes [i know its uick, but my button is dead] narrative perk advantage.

But yeah, most of the strategies come online turn 2 or later.

there is just no valid strategy to win a duel with Air Stance. plus, it have a low composure. and it is a starting Kakita Highest ring.

sure it makes you harder to hit... but thats it, doesn't help you win.

unless you are a ninjutsu duelist... then there are options ?

for kakita though, its a bit weird he have high air ring... considering he wants; Fire/Void/Earth, mostly.

Sure there are not, other than the ability to stick crits on everything once you get Breath of the Wind Style (this includes double crits, too), the ability to add kept Opportunity to your rolls basically increasing your Ring by one, getting high Focus so you can save Strife on Initiative rolls, generating passive Strife by virtue of making opponents actions one or two TN harder, and so on. and of course the fact that rank 3 kakita is always going to do a minimum Severity 3 crit to you by applying their ability *after you rolled to reduce it*, thus being able to always apply at least Wounded crit result, even with gentle unarmed taps or spitting. Which can get you out of the Earth Stance by rank two by virtue of Open Hand Style.

I'd probly build a Kakita as Air, Fire, Water. With Earth and Void not forgotten in order to avoid a glairing weakness. I feel dueling is more like ensuring you have several strategies to pull out, so you're never easily predicted. Kakita is an Air/Fire build out the gates, but that's not static. They start with one of the good strategies, an Iai cut and a high Air, TN3 does limit opportunity spending substantially for base beginner characters, but that's their one trick. They need to develop other tricks with xp.

10 minutes ago, WHW said:

thus being able to always apply at least Wounded crit result, even with gentle unarmed taps or spitting. Which can get you out of the Earth Stance by rank two by virtue of Open Hand Style.

that. is gold.

here is how you win a iaijutsu duel to first strike! punch him with open hand style. you dont even need to draw your weapon!

6 minutes ago, WHW said:

applying their ability *after you rolled to reduce it*

I don't think that you can do that because the ability specifically affects the severity of the critical strike itself and not the result.

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

I don't think that you can do that because the ability specifically affects the severity of the critical strike itself and not the result.

Yeah, you can't do that. It increases severity before the Fitness check at least as I interpret it. But that accidentally created a quick fix for Kakita to become a REALLY good school at dueling to first strike or first blood as they can just win initiative, cut you up and even good Fitness or being a Hida will not save you.

1 minute ago, omnicrone said:

Yeah, you can't do that. It increases severity before the Fitness check at least as I interpret it. But that accidentally created a quick fix for Kakita to become a REALLY good school at dueling to first strike or first blood as they can just win initiative, cut you up and even good Fitness or being a Hida will not save you.

how will you crit him first turn? hes in earth stance...

3 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

how will you crit him first turn? hes in earth stance...

yeah, I forgot about that. Well, dueling rules in 5e is like an hydra.

9 minutes ago, omnicrone said:

yeah, I forgot about that. Well, dueling rules in 5e is like an hydra.

its just very narrow. complex, yet limited...

we've been debating for days now, and the results we are at is that there are only a few ways to win. all very tied to "how to win over somebody in earth stance". seems like its about making it a mini-skirmish by striking like a madman (winning by points and/or incapacitating the opponent) or, having a specific technique (heartpiercing strike, breath of wind / veiled menace combo or the shinobi rank 4 technique) which there aren't many...

it is a strange game indeed. a game of extremes, hard counters, and a few openers.

it all boils down to a few key things. a bit like the card game. you play this card ? well hopefully i have this card to counter ! there are specific stuff to have to do specific things, and you need to be aware of that as a player.