1 minute ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Touchstone of Courage allows you to increase your Composure (and remove Strife if you can get the opportunities).

Better yet, if one of your friends watching the duel has Touchstone of Courage, they might be able to give you the boost and you can still use your action, presuming the judges won't object to encouraging words.

8 minutes ago, JBento said:

EDIT: I forgot to ask, did it do a full reset (to 0) in the Beta rules?

Nope. It just removes Glory Rank amount. And requires a Void Point expenditure. Not the hottest thing on the block, if you ask me.

1 minute ago, JBento said:

Better yet, if one of your friends watching the duel has Touchstone of Courage, they might be able to give you the boost and you can still use your action, presuming the judges won't object to encouraging words.

lets not get into outsiders helping the duel. need to figure out and/or fix the duel rules first

7 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

we might be onto something lads...

maybe a kakita duelist isn't so trash, by basically capitalizing on his "social skills" (and maybe add the 2opp to crit on rising cut).

but he needs ways to put strife on the striking opponent also, because don't get me wrong, that dragon niten duelist will go chop chop all day, and early, since he probably have crossing cuts.

He should be capitalising on his social skills WELL before the duel even starts. From the moment your opponent has his last downtime and the moment your duel starts, SOMEONE should be doing their best to crank up that Strife for the Finishing Blow.

EDIT: This is probably best undertaken by someone OTHER than the duelist, so they can go fresh to the duel - or, at least, as fresh as the opponent allows.

5 minutes ago, JBento said:

He should be capitalising on his social skills WELL before the duel even starts. From the moment your opponent has his last downtime and the moment your duel starts, SOMEONE should be doing their best to crank up that Strife for the Finishing Blow.

indeed. but i'm trying to figure out if there are good, low/med rank shuji that can put strife pressure on an opponent.

because i still think that striking all the time is the best option, eventually, that dude will get the lucky crit and or incapacitate you.

unless you can find a way to put strife pressure... then you reduce the amount of turn you have to deal with the onslaught.

i'm going "duels by the book" here. not the iaido duel of only one strike then its over and the jury decide. because these are not in the book. they can certainly happen if both duelists are of this style, but don't ask mirumoto musashi to do that, hes got 2 swords for a reason and nowhere it is written than you can only strike once

ps: also dont ask hisohuj hida.

"eventually" is risky business - at the start of the 3rd round, you've taken 6 Strife to the face from the Staredown alone, let alone strife from rolls, bid, and whatever the **** your opponent is doing to you.

17 minutes ago, JBento said:

"eventually" is risky business - at the start of the 3rd round, you've taken 6 Strife to the face from the Staredown alone, let alone strife from rolls, bid, and whatever the **** your opponent is doing to you.

indeed. that is why right now the best way is to iaijutsu strike right away, and strike all the time. dont predict, dont center... waste of time! unless the guy is in earth stance, then you need to predict... but vs a guy like that, i'd simply go fire and strike the hardest i can, hopefully incapacitating him before he incapacitate me.

doesnt make the duel "cool and dandy one strike duel" though. which is what many people want.

like, how many strike from a katana can you endure if you don't have an armor before you collapse ? not many rounds...

duels with an armor (clashes) are their own beast though... totally different because you have more time. so the rules as is probably make sense for those, there is a BIG chance a finishing blow will trigger before somebody falls incapacitated.

feels like they made the duel rules generic for all kinds of situations/opponents. but the big loser here, is the "dandy duel in pyjama to first blood crane style" which is easiest to win by striking all the time ?

hence why if there was a way for shujis to really be able to come into play before the opponent attack you all the time and win (lets take a mirumoto 2 sword, crossing cut guy, as our example of opponent here).

to keep on going;

center is still a huge gamble. you must be in void stance, totally open to attacks/crits. so you kind of hope you don't get one shot while you "center". not sure it is any good to be honest. not awful, but it is a gamble which i don't think i'd take, and would SURELY not take vs an opponent who have a iaijutsu technique.

predict seems like a crutch, only there to remove "earth stance" in first blood duels... otherwise, you never should predict. your opponent will make you pay in the meantime. (unless you can water stance strike + predict, don't know if its a thing really, but if it is... mmk legit).

battle in the mind kata is also very weak. i understand the designer's intention, but it simply doesn't work like how they intend in practice. battle in the mind doesn't help you win duels, you need to open up (initiative) in void stance to use it, and you need to use opportunities you could have used in much better ways with other elements. this is insane for what it can potentially give, i think.

In a first strike duel, all that matter is earth stance...

It makes initiative almost futile, and the staredown too. Just earth stance it and strike all the time to get that fatigue down (bonus if you have an iaijutsu technique, you can strike first round and stay in earth stance) who in is right mind will risk getting crit with 2 opps?

I found the culprit. Earth stance makes duels devolve into a turtle up, and strike to chip away their fatigue game.

In a first to "bleed" duel, then you start to make the techniques than can apply bleeding super strong.. i wont go there yet. One thing at a time.

Mmmm. Still thinking.

If earth stance didnt have this anti-crit thing, all of a sudden initiative/staredown becomes much much more important.

and the duels more fun and risky.

center still stay a bad gamble

and predict an awful gamble

but at least.

Rising Cut's value is when you've centered in a Iaijutsu duel...

You've got the explosive or two stored, and you can then make it a strife war - if you've got a 3+ void (the ideal for a duelist), and have centered, you can potentially have all three successes in the bag, and it's a sure-fire to crit when they compromise, you interrupt, still in void, and being in void, only the round strife is accumulating.

It's a PVP/PVGM head-game, not a mechanical contest, for the Iaijutsu duel.

In round 1: No one's low enough strife to strife out as the scene switches to the duel. The lowest possible is 4, and since it's a scene switch, they are at most at 2.

For a less-structured, the strike is strictly better across the board to both iaijutsu techniques. Handling it in skirmish is better still, as it opens the rolling options a lot.

FFG expects people to actually use mechanics informed by the story, not the other way around. They seem to avoid enforced genres. And the informed genre convention is the staredown is a series of small shifts and such, then one explosive strike each, maybe a block.

41 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

Rising Cut's value is when you've centered in a Iaijutsu duel...

You've got the explosive or two stored, and you can then make it a strife war - if you've got a 3+ void (the ideal for a duelist), and have centered, you can potentially have all three successes in the bag, and it's a sure-fire to crit when they compromise, you interrupt, still in void, and being in void, only the round strife is accumulating.

It's a PVP/PVGM head-game, not a mechanical contest, for the Iaijutsu duel.

In round 1: No one's low enough strife to strife out as the scene switches to the duel. The lowest possible is 4, and since it's a scene switch, they are at most at 2.

For a less-structured, the strike is strictly better across the board to both iaijutsu techniques. Handling it in skirmish is better still, as it opens the rolling options a lot.

FFG expects people to actually use mechanics informed by the story, not the other way around. They seem to avoid enforced genres. And the informed genre convention is the staredown is a series of small shifts and such, then one explosive strike each, maybe a block.

-in the case you mention, crossing cut is better than rising cut. the TN is lower. since you still don't understand that... let me bring you other arguments;

-you are not "centering" in a first blood duel, because the other guy will strike you since you are in void stance, and if hes got like 3 ring and 3 skill (which he should as a duelist) getting the 2 opportunities to crit you and win the duel is relatively easy, a good gamble to take. remember, you also need to take that weapon out because IAIJUTSU CUTS DONT CRIT.

-and i understand they want people to do a staredown/wait game then one explosive strike each. but the FFG people totally screwed it up, because if i sit there in earth stance, there is nothing you can do. aside predict. and you are going to predict while in earth stance because you don't want the other guy to crit you. then it devolve into who can predict earth first and then strike. + they make iaijutsu cut NOT CRIT. so the definitely don't give a flying *** about "iaido". They want duels including multiple strikes.

so; you win ini? you choose earth stance and predict earth. thats your best thing to do. remember, iaijutsu cuts CANNOT CRIT so how will you win ? you need to take that weapon out too. but if you chose to take weapon out then you cannot predict.

the moment you don't take earth stance, the guy will go water and strike you fishing for a crit. if you decide to predict "water", then hes got a choice to take; does he stick around with earth and take his weapon out? or take a chance with water to strike you?

that makes Earth and Water ring the best rings for duels (one shot duels). hands down. mr. big bad hida is better than you.

you see how busted that is for a "one shot" duel ?? it works if duel is meant to be multiple strikes though, because now you are not fishing for crits necessarily, so you can decide to open with iaijutsu crossing cut in fire and go all in, if that is your thing. give strife to the opponent and/or make them to pay 2 strife to attack you.

i know what you "imagine" @AK_Aramis but because of earth stance, all that is moot.

if you remove earth stance, then its about who wins the initiative. NOW, it gets interesting. but still pretty bad because iaijutsu:rising cut cannot crit unless the opponent is compromised. so you are better to use water to unsheat and do a normal strike...

i really hope that you start to understand that what you envision in your head is totally flawed compared to how the mechanics actually work.

on a first blood/strike duel, it will always end up with earth stances all the time until somebody predict. nobody is gonna be fool enough to center. especially when you start to have duelists with Ring3 and Skill3. Which is not too late in the game.

Getting 2 successes + 2Opps out of 3/3 isn't all that great... around 15%? I mean, you're not really risking anything for it, I guess.

From an non-extensive analysis of the stuff, at first sight it seems to me that what you really want in a first crit duel is to out-compose him and Rising Blade their *** once they become Compromised. So... stall in Earth stance, I guess?

14 minutes ago, JBento said:

Getting 2 successes + 2Opps out of 3/3 isn't all that great... around 15%? I mean, you're not really risking anything for it, I guess.

im pretty sure its way more than 15% (just did some test rolls). but, honestly, doesnt matter much...

debate is, all you need is earth and water ring. i think (if you want those "iaido one strike duels").

the system doesnt work for the way @AK_Aramis imagine them... earth stance will always screw you up cause you can't crit. and it makes iajutsu technique totally useless because they can't crit.

obviously if the duel is a strike fiesta (as it should be by the rules) then sure, get a iaijutsu technique (crossing cut) stay in earth stance, and strike... then strike again... and again. by the time the guy is able to take his weapon out, center, predict earth stance etc... he will be long gone into the land of incapacitated or maybe already critted.

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

the system doesnt work for the way @AK_Aramis imagine them... earth stance will always screw you up cause you can't crit. and it makes iajutsu technique totally useless because they can't crit.

This isn't accurate - if your target is Compromised, then Rising Cut ALWAYS crits. Well, presuming you hit in the first place.

16 minutes ago, JBento said:

From an non-extensive analysis of the stuff, at first sight it seems to me that what you really want in a first crit duel is to out-compose him and Rising Blade their *** once they become Compromised. So... stall in Earth stance, I guess?

i'd use crossing cut, remember, rising cut is trash. but yeah.

which comes back to my big bad realisation; earth stance immune to opps crit is busted (or boring if you prefer) for iaido style duels.

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

i'd use crossing cut, remember, rising cut is trash. but yeah.

Crossing Cut won't autocrit Compromised folks in the face, though.

39 minutes ago, JBento said:

Crossing Cut won't autocrit Compromised folks in the face, though.

yes, because finishing blow auto-crit at x2 deadliness! so he become compromised; boom, crossing cut his guts with a TN2. who the **** would use rising cut ??

so rising cut is only situationally better if the duel started when the dude was already compromised... he really brave to do a duel while being compromised. so he probably unmasked first. so hes probably not starting the duel compromised!

point is; rising cut is TRASH for duels why do people dont get it ?

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

yes, because finishing blow auto-crit at x2 deadliness!

Oops, so they do. Yeaaaah, Rising Cut is not convincing me in duels, then. It might be grand in skirmish and clashes, ironically.

6 minutes ago, JBento said:

Oops, so they do. Yeaaaah, Rising Cut is not convincing me in duels, then. It might be grand in skirmish and clashes, ironically.

another one of those "busted" rules.

but this proposed change could help it a lot;

2 opp: make a critical strike = to weapon's deadliness

remove the 1 opp: unsheat a second weapon.

this way, you make it a more crane style iaijutsu technique, dangerous in duel (but hard to master, since TN 3 + 2 opps is not easy), and you remove the double unsheat. (you also keep the auto-crit compromised opponent, because that is crane-like, when you open up a skirmish after many taunts)

crossing cut becomes the more dragon style iaijutsu technique, cannot crit, but hit harder at a lower TN and allows you to unsheat a second weapon and have more reach.

but thats another subject Bento!! we still didnt fix how to make the "iaido style duels" interesting and not favoring big earth/water lads.

2 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

-in the case you mention, crossing cut is better than rising cut. the TN is lower. since you still don't understand that... let me bring you other arguments;

-you are not "centering" in a first blood duel, because the other guy will strike you since you are in void stance, and if hes got like 3 ring and 3 skill (which he should as a duelist) getting the 2 opportunities to crit you and win the duel is relatively easy, a good gamble to take. remember, you also need to take that weapon out because IAIJUTSU CUTS DONT CRIT.

-and i understand they want people to do a staredown/wait game then one explosive strike each. but the FFG people totally screwed it up, because if i sit there in earth stance, there is nothing you can do. aside predict. and you are going to predict while in earth stance because you don't want the other guy to crit you. then it devolve into who can predict earth first and then strike. + they make iaijutsu cut NOT CRIT. so the definitely don't give a flying *** about "iaido". They want duels including multiple strikes.

so; you win ini? you choose earth stance and predict earth. thats your best thing to do. remember, iaijutsu cuts CANNOT CRIT so how will you win ? you need to take that weapon out too. but if you chose to take weapon out then you cannot predict.

the moment you don't take earth stance, the guy will go water and strike you fishing for a crit. if you decide to predict "water", then hes got a choice to take; does he stick around with earth and take his weapon out? or take a chance with water to strike you?

that makes Earth and Water ring the best rings for duels (one shot duels). hands down. mr. big bad hida is better than you.

you see how busted that is for a "one shot" duel ?? it works if duel is meant to be multiple strikes though, because now you are not fishing for crits necessarily, so you can decide to open with iaijutsu crossing cut in fire and go all in, if that is your thing. give strife to the opponent and/or make them to pay 2 strife to attack you.

i know what you "imagine" @AK_Aramis but because of earth stance, all that is moot.

if you remove earth stance, then its about who wins the initiative. NOW, it gets interesting. but still pretty bad because iaijutsu:rising cut cannot crit unless the opponent is compromised. so you are better to use water to unsheat and do a normal strike...

i really hope that you start to understand that what you envision in your head is totally flawed compared to how the mechanics actually work.

on a first blood/strike duel, it will always end up with earth stances all the time until somebody predict. nobody is gonna be fool enough to center. especially when you start to have duelists with Ring3 and Skill3. Which is not too late in the game.

Go reread Rising Cut - you cannot defend against it if compromised.

Now, go reread defending against damage. Hint: Not defending is 100% identical to "takes a crit."

I am expecting an apology. I doubt I'll get one.

Crazy good Shujis for Duels that may save the savy duelists;

Fanning the Flame ; Rank 2 Fire: when you make a social check, you can spend fire opp+: one target gets the dazed condition (+2 tn to attacks and scheme) ok.... + if you have more opps (and to be honest here you don't even care about succeeding your social check, you are fishing for opps, you can give 2 strife to the opponent also! and if you get 4opps, jeez, hes dazed, took 2 strife, and he cannot attack/scheme you unless he takes 2 more strife. this looks good on paper, but is easily countered by somebody just retaliating to that by doing a random water ring action and healing 2 strifes. so basically, you will lose the long run because you accumulate more strife than him because he needs to only keep 1 dice (to get that 1opp, he doesnt care about succeeding his random perfomance roll, thats how stupid the l5r system is)

Sear the wound ; Rank 5 Fire: is good, basically he needs to reroll 2 dices all the time until end of scene. but its rank 5, and at this point, re-rolling 2 dices is not the end of the world.

All arts are one ; Rank 3 Void: again, no need to succeed so failing the check doesnt matter, you take it for the opp usage! void opp: choose a ring, reduce the TN of you next check using that ring by 1 (until end of your next turn). STRANGELY, this is the exact same thing as the regular generic void opp spending... except now, you can take it twice if you got 2opps... making it a -2 to your TN. imo, this is almost better than centering. and since it is a support action, any opps you get over 2 you can spend in the conflict void spending: void opp+ increase your initiative value by one... not bad. not bad.

Courtier's Resolve; Rank 1 Void: good. one void point, heal Strife. and the GREAT thing about it ? you don't need to be in void stance to do it.

Lady's Doji Decree: (Crane) Rank 2 Void: wow... ok, this is once per session; but basically, you make a courtesy void check against the target vigilance, and he cannot attack you for one round + one more round per bonus successes WOW. TAKE. IT.

Lord Akodo's Roar: (Lion) Rank 2 Void: ok i guess. once per game session.. but it is a tn1 and daze the opponent. allowing you to daze him and take the void generic opp -1 tn to your next check. decent for duels.

Lord's Togashi Insight: (Dragon) Rank 2: risky, because you are stuck in void stance, but quite hot. you basically reduce your next check's TN by your school rank for 1opp! addto that another -1TN if you get 1 more opp (generic void opp usage).

Touchstone of courage: Rank 3 Earth: good, because it is earth stance. but the roll is hard. it is a TN 4, and to maximize its usage you basically need 2opps also, making it a crazy high TN4 2OPP roll... but hey, you are in earth stance, so depending on the duel or your stat, ... it can be great for earth users.

so there we go, here are the STRONGEST shuji for duels (imo);

Lady's Doji Decree and Courtier's resolve. Lady's Doji Decree being the only GOD TIER ability here. thank GOD it is once per session.

for KATAS, the best ones are:

there's a lot of stuff that is decent, but only TWO that are a must have for most duelists. and... TWO very good ones for those ninja duelists...

heartpiercing strike Rank3 Fire. TN4 fire martial = crit.

boom. ez. a must have.

Iaijutsu cut Crossing Blade . Rank2. it is the best of iaijutsu cuts, and iaijutsu cuts are good.

the one we should not name: Coiled Serpent Style . if you duel with a snaring weapon (if allowed in the context etc.) this is simply busted.

Silencing Stroke Rank 4 Air SHINOBI: basically heartpiercing strike, shinobi version. really really good.

Deadly Sting Rank 2 Air SHINOBI: that poison is gooood for duels... if it goes unoticed

there you go guys, be a Kakita Duelist with: Lady's Doji Decree (combo it with All Arts are One and/or Courtier's Resolve ), Heartpiercing strike, and Crossing Cut. 3 out of 5 are in your curriculum also! Striking as Void that you get at rank 4 is also cool for you, allows you to change stance after doing Lady's Doji Decree or All Arts are One.

great duelist. but very Ring Hungry because your dump stat, AIR, is the stat you start with the highest in.... (composure is too OP and yours is awful)

Crane: +1 air (trash)

Kakita: +1 fire or +1 air (take fire)

Kakita Duelist School: +1 air + 1 earth (not so good, because air is trash).

question 4 in character creation: get void, or maybe fire if you feel like it.

crank up that fire ring to 4 minimum for rank 3, Void ring should be at 3 also for a decent Lady Doji's decree.

Air is already at 3, but really, its a dump stat...

you don't have a lot of composure, which is a BIG DEAL. so you have to boost that earth or water ring also, I say to 3 each... It really sucks that Crane/Kakita Duelist gives you +2 air when it is such a DUMP STAT in duels for non-shinobis. Probably a design mistake, they must have thought Air was good for duelists to first strike/blood when it is basically the worst ring. But overall, in this game Air is weak aside for ninjas.

good skills to have; Melee, Courtesy, Meditation, Fitness

10 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

Go reread Rising Cut - you cannot defend against it if compromised.

Now, go reread defending against damage. Hint: Not defending is 100% identical to "takes a crit."

I am expecting an apology. I doubt I'll get one.

ok at this point you are just not listening right, go read FINISHING BLOW in duels. the moment someone is compromised you get an AUTOMATIC, INTERRUPT, OUT OF TURN, ATTACK ACTION OF YOUR CHOICE AGAINST THEM, THAT CRITS AUTOMATICALLY INSTEAD OF DOING DMG, AT WEAPON'S DEADLINESS X2 +BONUS SUCCESSES ON YOUR CHECK.. so you'd rather use crossing cut because the TN is 2 (and rising cut is 3). the fact that rising cut crits on compromised opponent CHANGES NOTHING in a duel when someone becomes compromised.

knock knock, who's there ? we've been talking about in in every page of this forum !!!!!! ok, you are just not super aware dude.

8 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

ok at this point you are just not listening right, go read FINISHING BLOW in duels. the moment someone is compromised you get an AUTOMATIC, INTERRUPT, ATTACK AGAINST THEM, THAT CRITS AUTOMATICALLY AT WEAPON'S DEADLINESS X2. so you'd rather use crossing cut because the TN is 2 (and rising cut is 3). the fact that rising cut crits on compromised opponent CHANGES NOTHING in a duel when someone becomes compromised.

knock knock, who's there ?

Page 268, LC, § "Defending against damage:
"When an effect deals damage to a character, the character must defend aginst the damage; if they cannot, they suffer a critical strike with severity based upon the damage source (the deadliness, for most weapons)."

Page 197, RC, § Iaijutsu cut: Rising Blade. ¶3:
"If you succeed, you deal physical damage to the target equal to the weapon's deadliness. Your target cannot defend against this damage if they are Compromised."

Big enough letters for you to maybe be able to read it:

Last sentence of Rising Cut: "Your target cannot defend against this damage if they are Compromised."

lol...

dude... you are getting pathetic, someone, please, help me tell him he's wrong.

go read finishing blow... it is an automatic crit if the guy gets compromised. go read it, p.259.

PLEASE go read it...

please...

and edit your big comment that just makes you more dumb.