34 minutes ago, WHW said:

Kakita who manages to crit you into wound penalties can absolutely then proceed to bait a finishing blow by bidding a lot of strife before you have a chance to switch your stance.

I was just considering, as it was said earlier, Kakita is an Air/Fire build. If a Kakita can rely on that high focus to go first, keep their opponent out of earth stance while staying in fire stance - burn that strife for bonus success on a first round crit. Of course, starter Kakita aren't going to be that great at it - but they're just learning.

I don't think there are any ways to do turn 1 crit in a iaijutsu duel at the moment, unless your opponent is compromised. Which makes going Fire Initiative: Inflame, Fire Iaijutsu Draw: Inflame, 2h Strike: Inflame or Crit very attractive.

But so is going Initiative: Inflame, Air Iaijutsu Draw: Keep Extra Opportunity Next Roll, 2h Crit Strike.

edit

Actually you can also go Air Initiative: Keep Extra Opp Next Martial Roll, Water Free Action Draw, Water 2h Strike. This is very strong and pretty doable out of even Water 2, if you are willing to burn a Void Point and trust yourself to roll at least 2 successes and 1 opportunity.

Personally, I am not allowing 2-handed strikes in an Iaijutsu duel at my table.

2 minutes ago, Wyrmdog said:

Personally, I am not allowing 2-handed strikes in an Iaijutsu duel at my table.

I would say it depends. If you're not using Water to be able to draw and strike, but instead having to draw, wait until next turn, strike (assuming you weren't hit), then you should be able to adjust your grip from drawn-into-one-hand to now-using-both.

I haven't seen the final version of the Iaijutsu technique, but in the Beta it did require you to go one-handed.

2 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

I haven't seen the final version of the Iaijutsu technique, but in the Beta it did require you to go one-handed.

The Iaijutsu kata do indeed specify 1-handed, but the more generally available Finishing Blow in the duels makes no such requirement. Also, am I assuming too much that the Finishing Blow involves a draw and strike regardless of stance? I must be. argh

6 hours ago, Shinjo Koetsu said:

Okay, this makes sense to me what they were going for. It's still strange to me that a duel to first strike basically becomes two people swinging swords at each other, but at least the duel to first blood is thematically appropriate. It still feels kind of weird and clunky to me, however, and is better suited for a 1-on-1 fight than an honor duel.

Mechanically these both seem to work very well, but when you picture a Kakita dueling, are you envisioning them chopping at the air until they hit, or inflaming their opponent?

First stike is first to get a crit. (p 258)

First blood is a crit of severity 5+ (ibid.)

5 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

First stike is first to get a crit. (p 258)

First blood is a crit of severity 5+ (ibid.)

So if you don't roll them opportunities, then it really is just a 1v1 skirmish.

4 minutes ago, Wyrmdog said:

Also, am I assuming too much that the Finishing Blow involves a draw and strike regardless of stance? I must be. argh

Yep. Finishing Blow only allows for an off-turn Attack action. If you fail to draw a weapon before your opponent Compromises, you can only use Punches, Kicks and Bites for your Finishing Blow.

1 minute ago, Hida Jitenno said:

So if you don't roll them opportunities, then it really is just a 1v1 skirmish. 

Several techniques do auto crits. If you can hit the TN 3, Iaijutsu Cut: Rising Blade is designed for Finishing Blows. Heartpiercing Strike can also finish things on the first blow.

Rising Blade is redundant for duels as it only auto-crits when the target is compromised, which means you would be entitled to a Finishing Blow anyway.

8 minutes ago, WHW said:

Rising Blade is redundant for duels as it only auto-crits when the target is compromised, which means you would be entitled to a Finishing Blow anyway.

You are only entitled to a Finishing Blow when an opponent first becomes Compromised or unmasks. If the target comes in compromised or otherwise avoids your Finishing Blow , Rising Blade gives you another.

On 10/15/2018 at 9:38 AM, Falendor said:

If someone just tried striking me, I would probably switch to water stance for the extra action. Then strike back while using predict on whatever they keep using or a good striking stance like fire.

I don't think you can Strike and Predict in the same turn. Water gives you an extra action, which can't be the same type as your other action this turn. Predict is an Attack and Scheme, while Strike is an Attack.

6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Ouch. That's a fair point; a duellist in earth stance cannot lose a duel to first blood without being incapacitated or compromised. Worth noting.

Predict Earth, then bid enough Strife to make sure you act before he can change stances. Of course, if he's smart, he'll see this coming, switch to Fire or something, and just mess you up that way.

6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

...a duellist in earth stance cannot lose a duel to first blood without being incapacitated or compromised.

Seems like you get around that if you utilize the Finishing Blow to get your insta-crit, since you aren't spending Opportunity to activate the Crit and Earth only prevents spending Opportunity to activate a Crit or a condition. Boosting or altering is a whole other animal it would seem.

I wanted to add a few things.

It is rare, but a character can get the three successes and two opportunities needed to pull off a turn 1 Iaijutsu critical strike. You need a minimum of three ring dice and one skill die (or just two ring dice if EXTREMELY lucky on explosions!). This can be helped with a Void point expenditure.

For a Kakita a good choice for the Meditation initiative check is to do Void stance. Use the high focus and the ability to keep strife dice to get bonus success up while not gaining strife, and hopefully getting an opportunity to reduce the TN of your next (specified ring) check by one. If the opponent did not do earth, go for Fire or Air to do the Rising Cut, hopefully now at TN 2. If the opponent did earth for initiative, then Predict Water or Earth depending on what strategy you want going forward. Maybe in Air stance for the +1 TN against an attack.

3 minutes ago, Wyrmdog said:

Seems like you get around that if you utilize the Finishing Blow to get your insta-crit, since you aren't spending Opportunity to activate the Crit and Earth only prevents spending Opportunity to activate a Crit or a condition. Boosting or altering is a whole other animal it would seem.

That is correct. Finishing Blow bypasses earth stance protection since it doesn't require spending opportunities. Though it still prevents spending more opportunities.

5 minutes ago, GM81 Protocol Droid said:

I wanted to add a few things.

It is rare, but a character can get the three successes and two opportunities needed to pull off a turn 1 Iaijutsu critical strike. You need a minimum of three ring dice and one skill die (or just two ring dice if EXTREMELY lucky on explosions!). This can be helped with a Void point expenditure.

For a Kakita a good choice for the Meditation initiative check is to do Void stance. Use the high focus and the ability to keep strife dice to get bonus success up while not gaining strife, and hopefully getting an opportunity to reduce the TN of your next (specified ring) check by one. If the opponent did not do earth, go for Fire or Air to do the Rising Cut, hopefully now at TN 2. If the opponent did earth for initiative, then Predict Water or Earth depending on what strategy you want going forward. Maybe in Air stance for the +1 TN against an attack.

My book is about to come in 2-3 days, but I was under an impression that you can only spend Opportunities to crit on basic, naked Strike - so no critting from Iaijutsu Cuts? The only way for Crit turn 1 in a scenario where your weapon is sheated is to use Water Stance to draw it, at least from my limited exposure to full corebook.

9 minutes ago, WHW said:

I was under an impression that you can only spend Opportunities to crit on basic, naked Strike - so no critting from Iaijutsu Cuts?

I figured that an Iaijutsu Cut Kata counts as a Strike and can thus spend Opportunity like one.

It doesn't say Strike (rather it says Attack and Movement ) so perhaps not by the most literal reading of the rules, but...

Strike is a specific Attack action. Unless a lot changed, Strike is it's own beast with unique opportunities that don't apply to other Attack actions.

Neither iai cut lets you crit. But I think they do work well with finishing blows, as you can use either to get the free draw you need.

2 minutes ago, WHW said:

Strike is a specific Attack action. Unless a lot changed, Strike is it's own beast with unique opportunities that don't apply to other Attack actions.

You are likely right. I tend to read some of these things very loosely and it's becoming clearer that I can't do that.

5 hours ago, WHW said:

Strike is a specific Attack action. Unless a lot changed, Strike is it's own beast with unique opportunities that don't apply to other Attack actions.

You are exactly correct. I had that wrong in my head that you could do it with any attack. Oops!

7 hours ago, WHW said:

My book is about to come in 2-3 days, but I was under an impression that you can only spend Opportunities to crit on basic, naked Strike - so no critting from Iaijutsu Cuts? The only way for Crit turn 1 in a scenario where your weapon is sheated is to use Water Stance to draw it, at least from my limited exposure to full corebook.

Correct. Even if you incapacitate someone, you need to hit them again for a critical strike.

Water does also have the advantage that you can draw in a 2-handed grip, and that it allows you (if you know it) to use the awesome-for-duels-to-first-blood Flowing Water Strike technique, which changes things to "3 successes and you're done".

On 10/16/2018 at 1:01 PM, The Grand Falloon said:

I don't think you can Strike and Predict in the same turn. Water gives you an extra action, which can't be the same type as your other action this turn. Predict is an Attack and Scheme, while Strike is an Attack.

Yes, you can - but only if that strike is a finishing blow.

See, if they become compromised, finishing blow interrupts EVERYTHING (including another finishing blow), and gets resolved during their turn.

The only potential exception is when both become compromised at start of round, during the staredown — as that's when the round number of the duel is added to each participant's strife — which isn't clear how to handle. Me, I'm going to make that simultaneous strikes. I know others will probably suggest initiative order or highest strife.

On 10/16/2018 at 1:40 PM, llamaman88 said:

Neither iai cut lets you crit. But I think they do work well with finishing blows, as you can use either to get the free draw you need.

Not so. Rising blade prevents defense if compromised. Which means the hit on someone compromised is AUTOMATICALLY a crit if the damage is greater than armor. See page 179, «Iaijutsu Cut: Rising Blade» para 3, last sentence.

As a finishing blow, it's a guaranteed crit unless you fail to get 3 successes.

as i understand duels, the designers seem to think that if you strike first it should be disadvantageous. but i don't really get it. i feel like you should always strike to eventually overcome their fatigue and get a crit, or get the 2 opportunity on a strike action and get the crit.

if you start to center, sure you might end up with a few good dice rolls when you finally decide to strike, but by that time the other character will have probably strike you twice already and chances are he will have a crit by then.

so basically, by doing all the shaenigans of "centering" etc you are gambling that the other character cannot crit you or incapacitate you until you start to strike, and at that point your strike kind of need to be a good one (and a crit) otherwise you just lost.

i feel the overall mechanic is very advantageous to someone who just strike all the time.

Just now, Avatar111 said:

as i understand duels, the designers seem to think that if you strike first it should be disadvantageous. but i don't really get it. i feel like you should always strike to eventually overcome their fatigue and get a crit, or get the 2 opportunity on a strike action and get the crit.

if you start to center, sure you might end up with a few good dice rolls when you finally decide to strike, but by that time the other character will have probably strike you twice already and chances are he will have a crit by then.

so basically, by doing all the shaenigans of "centering" etc you are gambling that the other character cannot crit you or incapacitate you until you start to strike, and at that point your strike kind of need to be a good one (and a crit) otherwise you just lost.

i feel the overall mechanic is very advantageous to someone who just strike all the time.

You need to math the scoring...