Actually, thinking about it. The biggest problem as some people already have pointed out is Earth Stance (which is also a very dominant stance in Intrigues as my table already caught on, but that is for another topic). Earth is just the "No Fun Allowed" Stance. No easy way to fix it though except for allowing a predict before people roll initiative or after initiative both players assume stances (can be different from whatever Initiative was rolled) and whoever won gains a free Predict. This can block people who only trusts their Earth to outlast their faster opponents to actually have plan B and C on their dueling strategies, even if such plan B is to simply trade their Composure advantage to catch up to the higher Focus opponent.

32 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

They start with one of the good strategies, an Iai cut and a high Air, TN3 does limit opportunity spending substantially for base beginner characters, but that's their one trick. They need to develop other tricks with xp.

still going to be extremely hard for you to win over an earth opponent with your starting composure since you can't crit him unless you spend a round to predict, and that rising blade doesnt crit.

so you need to: take your sword out, and predict earth.

only in water stance you can do that.

so your best bet against Hida is to water stance, take sword out and predict earth.

to bug you, he takes air stance and take his weapon out.

its your turn, you can strike him with your best ring on his air stance.... because after that, hes goign to pick earth again and smack you like basic joe.

and your composure is probably out...

5 minutes ago, omnicrone said:

Actually, thinking about it. The biggest problem as some people already have pointed out is Earth Stance (which is also a very dominant stance in Intrigues as my table already caught on, but that is for another topic). Earth is just the "No Fun Allowed" Stance. No easy way to fix it though except for allowing a predict before people roll initiative or after initiative both players assume stances (can be different from whatever Initiative was rolled) and whoever won gains a free Predict. This can block people who only trusts their Earth to outlast their faster opponents to actually have plan B and C on their dueling strategies, even if such plan B is to simply trade their Composure advantage to catch up to the higher Focus opponent.

agreed. the "cannot crit using opportunities" is making a lot of things, unfun.

earth stance is the culprit... like some of us also mentioned in earlier posts.

meh. I like it. In the case of a very early game duel to first strike - no more than rank one.

Say I'm playing someone with no Iai techs and my opponent does, but my good composure is an advantage. I roll initiative in earth stance and my opponent choses earth as well

I buy my way up to top initiative cause I know I have the composure advantage, and start by predicting earth.

My opponent probly suspects I've predicted earth, because I want that crit, and shifts to air. They might then activate a shuji, try to manage strife to gain a composure lead on me. Next round, I don't want to bid again, because I don't want to lose the strife game. They go first now. They might predict water.

I'm faced with a decision now. Did they predict earth, because they're gambling I can't hit AND crit while they're in air, or did they predict water so I can't hit at all?

Next round the strife creep is massive. Both of us are going to be close to compromised. This decision is very important to the duels outcome. I find that fun.

You assume that anyone that isn't a Hida has a low composure, but in practice that just isn't true. A starting Mirumoto has Composure ten quite easily, with 12 endurance, and a Starting Kakita is looking at eight and ten respectively.

If you can't last two turns with eight composure, look at the dice you are keeping to be honest

5 minutes ago, Amanda the Panda said:

You assume that anyone that isn't a Hida has a low composure, but in practice that just isn't true. A starting Mirumoto has Composure ten quite easily, with 12 endurance, and a Starting Kakita is looking at eight and ten respectively.

If you can't last two turns with eight composure, look at the dice you are keeping to be honest

kakita

crane +1 air

kakita +1 fire or + 1 air

kakita duelist +1 air and + 1 earth

question #4, your choice

that's a max of composure 8 at start. but probably 6 only if you don't take water or earth in question 4.

i could be mistaken in my calculation though... but that is what i get.

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

kakita

crane +1 air

kakita +1 fire or + 1 air

kakita duelist +1 air and + 1 earth

question #4, your choice

that's a max of composure 8 at start. but probably 6 only if you don't take water or earth in question 4.

i could be mistaken in my calculation though... but that is what i get.

Your calculation is right, but I don't know why you wouldn't take Earth or Water. ****, I would be a Daidoji family for the Earth 3 Water 2 combo

9 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

meh. I like it. In the case of a very early game duel to first strike - no more than rank one.

Say I'm playing someone with no Iai techs and my opponent does, but my good composure is an advantage. I roll initiative in earth stance and my opponent choses earth as well

I buy my way up to top initiative cause I know I have the composure advantage, and start by predicting earth.

My opponent probly suspects I've predicted earth, because I want that crit, and shifts to air. They might then activate a shuji, try to manage strife to gain a composure lead on me. Next round, I don't want to bid again, because I don't want to lose the strife game. They go first now. They might predict water.

I'm faced with a decision now. Did they predict earth, because they're gambling I can't hit AND crit while they're in air, or did they predict water so I can't hit at all?

Next round the strife creep is massive. Both of us are going to be close to compromised. This decision is very important to the duels outcome. I find that fun.

"I buy my way up to top initiative cause I know I have the composure advantage, and start by predicting earth." ? just stay in earth and get that weapon out.

forcing HIM to predict earth and losing his turn not taking his weapon out.

now, he needs to be in earth too, otherwise you could crit him next turn...

you see how that goes ? its all about trying to go around earth stance...

1 minute ago, Amanda the Panda said:

Your calculation is right, but I don't know why you wouldn't take Earth or Water

Because Void 1 sucks BIG time.

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

kakita

crane +1 air

kakita +1 fire or + 1 air

kakita duelist +1 air and + 1 earth

question #4, your choice

that's a max of composure 8 at start. but probably 6 only if you don't take water or earth in question 4.

i could be mistaken in my calculation though... but that is what i get.

If a Kakita picks air for his family bonus, he can increase any ring instead of Air from his school bonus since he can't go over Air 3. So a Kakita can end up with 3 Earth, 2 Water or 3 Water, 2 Earth, albeit with a clear deficiency in Void (as most starting characters) and, ironically, Fire.

1 minute ago, Amanda the Panda said:

Your calculation is right, but I don't know why you wouldn't take Earth or Water. ****, I would be a Daidoji family for the Earth 3 Water 2 combo

yup, choosing daidoji (or any crane family with either water or earth as choice) and choosing earth or water in the question 4 is the way to go.

makes sense for a Kakita Duelist, right ?

3 minutes ago, omnicrone said:

If a Kakita picks air for his family bonus, he can increase any ring instead of Air from his school bonus since he can't go over Air 3. So a Kakita can end up with 3 Earth, 2 Water or 3 Water, 2 Earth, albeit with a clear deficiency in Void (as most starting characters) and, ironically, Fire.

good point.

but isn't it weird that we are fishing for earth and water here ??

Any Crane makes sense to be trained as a Kakita duelist. And Earth is the ring of tradition and patience. I think it is very fitting for the Kakita school, which is why it is one of the ring they get increased I imagine

1 minute ago, Amanda the Panda said:

Any Crane makes sense to be trained as a Kakita duelist. And Earth is the ring of tradition and patience. I think it is very fitting for the Kakita school, which is why it is one of the ring they get increased I imagine

yup, thats why savy air courtiers are just useless. they blow a fuse all the time.

rather be a Hida, Matsu, Moto and screw that useless air ring! high composure ftw. these are the guys that can hold themselves well and not lose face, crane courtiers ? scorpion manipulators ? nope, these guys are unmasking pros.

Just now, Avatar111 said:

yup, thats why savy air courtiers are just useless. they blow a fuse all the time.

rather be a Hida, Matsu, Moto and screw that useless air ring! high composure ftw.

Or you could use the air opportunity to reduce the strife you take from your own actions. Or not focus on one ring, that is a good idea too (I do think that Composure probably should have been based on Air and Water though)

6 minutes ago, Amanda the Panda said:

Or you could use the air opportunity to reduce the strife you take from your own actions. Or not focus on one ring, that is a good idea too (I do think that Composure probably should have been based on Air and Water though)

air opportunity doesnt reduce strife you take from action, thats "any" opportunity. water is the one that helps you manage strife.

and yeah, air should be in composure. i agree 100% with you here! I tried to play around see what would be best for rings/stats. but it isnt easy to figure out nicely.

the best way i found without changing things "too much".

endurance: earth water

composure: air earth

focus: fire air

vigilance: water fire

Fire becomes the guy who blow a fuse often (water too, but he can often spend opportunity to reduce his strife by 2, making it better than fire).

this is my favorite setup, I like that water is represented as very emotional (not a lot of composure, but regains it easily) and it buffs air a bit (which is super weak vs composure in the current rule).

Fire stays super weak vs composure. but i feel that is "fine" as fire creates strife and are the guys who will probably not care about unmasking and creating a situation (aka: miss matsu)



15 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

good point.

but  isn't it weird that we are fishing for earth and water here ??  

Yes. The duelist rings in previous editions was all about Void and either Fire or Air (or both). 4E was skewed towards Void/Air exclusively, at least until both duelists stroke and then we had a skirmish (where Agility/Reflexes, ie. Fire and Air, was everything).

This system actually makes all rings kind of relevant since both Focus and Composure are important. Though it is undeniable duels are centered around the Earth stance (instead of Void) in 5e.

Also, starting characters are really newbs in this system. They are clearly made for fresh from genpukku kids, that are amateur level on most skills and still haven't developed well in some approaches in life. This makes a lot of sense as a Kakita starting out is still honing his duelist skills and need to cover holes on his curriculum. He learned the basics: strike fast, learn how to draw your blade and cut someone up in the same stroke and try to read people. In the later ranks Kakita seems really dangerous in duels, with increased deadliness, Heartpiercing Strike, access to some strong Shuji (like Lady Doji's Decree) and whatnots.

Meanwhile a Hida is just accidentally a great martial duelist starting out, but that is just collateral on his training to actually soak Ogres trying to bash his face on a rock.

5 minutes ago, omnicrone said:



Yes. The duelist rings in previous editions was all about Void and either Fire or Air (or both). 4E was skewed towards Void/Air exclusively, at least until both duelists stroke and then we had a skirmish (where Agility/Reflexes, ie. Fire and Air, was everything).

This system actually makes all rings kind of relevant since both Focus and Composure are important. Though it is undeniable duels are centered around the Earth stance (instead of Void) in 5e.

Also, starting characters are really newbs in this system. They are clearly made for fresh from genpukku kids, that are amateur level on most skills and still haven't developed well in some approaches in life. This makes a lot of sense as a Kakita starting out is still honing his duelist skills and need to cover holes on his curriculum. He learned the basics: strike fast, learn how to draw your blade and cut someone up in the same stroke and try to read people. In the later ranks Kakita seems really dangerous in duels, with increased deadliness, Heartpiercing Strike, access to some strong Shuji (like Lady Doji's Decree) and whatnots.

Meanwhile a Hida is just accidentally a great martial duelist starting out, but that is just collateral on his training to actually soak Ogres trying to bashing his face on a rock.

well a rank 6 Kakita simply "wins" duel with his mastery ability...

at rank 3-4 he can do good with; Heartpiercing Strike, Lady Doji's Decree (this thing man... is like...that good), Striking as Void (so he can draw his sword after doing Lady's Doji's Decree).

thing is.. it makes those "iaijutsu cuts" techniques, so, useless for "clean duels".

thats why i find giving iaijutsu cut rising blade the buff: 2opp critical strike = to weapon deadliness, a nice way to make it useful/dangerous. still is a TN3 to hit, TN3 + 2opp isn't easy to achieve in early ranks so its not like "busted".

57 minutes ago, omnicrone said:

Actually, thinking about it. The biggest problem as some people already have pointed out is Earth Stance (which is also a very dominant stance in Intrigues as my table already caught on, but that is for another topic)

i'm curious whats the issue with earth stance in intrigues ?

i know in duels and skirmish since you cannot crit and inflict condition on them its like OP and nerfs half the katas that are condition based and all critical strike oriented characters.

but it applies to intrigue also ? because i guess you want to inflict conditions ?

#screwearthstance

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

i'm curious whats the issue with earth stance in intrigues ?

i know in duels and skirmish since you cannot crit and inflict condition on them its like OP.

but it applies to intrigue also ? because i guess you want to inflict conditions ?

#screwearthstance

The Bushi stays on Earth stance, immune to opp conditions (which blocks some of the nastiness from a couple of Shuji), while reassuring the Courtier (and reducing their strife) every turn while they do their thing. At least this gives the dedicated, gruff Bushi something to do in an Intrigue, but it is something so boring...

1 minute ago, omnicrone said:

The Bushi stays on Earth stance, immune to opp conditions (which blocks some of the nastiness from a couple of Shuji), while reassuring the Courtier (and reducing their strife) every turn while they do their thing. At least this gives the dedicated, gruff Bushi something to do in an Intrigue, but it is something so boring...

yup, screw earth stance for real. i'm ok it can help others regain their strife.

but the no opp spending for conditions or crit ? that literally cookblock a lot of the the techniques. and the fun of trying to roll opportunities to activate them.

4 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

yup, screw earth stance for real. i'm ok it can help others regain their strife.

but the no opp spending for conditions or crit ? that literally cookblock a lot of the the techniques. and the fun of trying to roll opportunities to activate them.

I'm thinking Earth stance dudes forcing people to get Strife in order to spend opportunities to affect them, instead of being a full denial. I'm just not a great fan of "Perfect Effects" on games and this one is full of ones like it (Earth Stance, Coiling Serpent Strike and the like), which is exactly the stuff we are complaining about in these threads.

Just now, omnicrone said:

I'm thinking Earth stance dudes forcing people to get Strife in order to spend opportunities to affect them, instead of being a full denial. I'm just not a great fan of "Perfect Effects" on games and this one is full of ones like it (Earth Stance, Coiling Serpent Strike and the like), which is exactly the stuff we are complaining about in these threads.

yeah, seems like a few "perfect effects" are in this game (like Coiling Serpent Style)..

anyway, I like the concept of this game a lot, but it is unplayable for our group right now. I will play a "somewhat heavily modified" version of it, later this year, probably after Emeral Empire and the first few errata releases. So I can see what tweaks I need to include.

Earth Stance giving strife for people trying to crit/cond you, i like that!

Or, maybe simply "need to spend 1opp extra when you want to crit or apply cond with opps" Which makes it a bit like air stance ? but for opportunities ?

or mix it ? need to pay 1opp+1strife when they want to use opps to crit/cond you ?

anyway, good talk mate. i appreciate that.

1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

"I buy my way up to top initiative cause I know I have the composure advantage, and start by predicting earth." ? just stay in earth and get that weapon out.

forcing HIM to predict earth and losing his turn not taking his weapon out.

now, he needs to be in earth too, otherwise you could crit him next turn...

you see how that goes ? its all about trying to go around earth stance...

Its about trying to go around all the stances. No one wants a non-duelist to get into water stance safely in the first turn. No one wants someone with high air to be able to hang around in their best stat with a defensive advantage. You really don't want people to corner you and take fire stance, since it contains most the really dangerous techs.

Earth doesn't win by default, its a safety net that your opponent can exploit. Catching someone out of Earth isn't an auto-crit, its an opportunity that's challenging to capitalize on in early game.

Never mind the fact that a lot of other families don't want to be in earth just for the protection, they want to be there cause it's often tied for best ring. If you can't stay in a ring that keeps three dice, good luck reliably hitting an Air based build with opportunity left over. I really just don't care if Earth sounds pivotal in one situation, because all rings are pivotal in one situation.

4 hours ago, JBento said:

Crossing Cut (well, either Iaijutsu) is superior to Strike if a fight starts with your weapons sheathed and you don't want to be in Water stance, or want to use the Water bonus action for other purposes (like closing in on the enemy).

Hmm... they seem to have dropped the draw on initiative roll.

Non duel use, Rising is range 0-1, crossing range 1-2. That's a big difference in practice. Rising can hit the guy who grabs you. Crossing can hit the guy across the table...