18 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

Page 268, LC, § "Defending against damage:
"When an effect deals damage to a character, the character must defend against the damage; if they cannot, they suffer a critical strike with severity based upon the damage source (the deadliness, for most weapons)."

Page 179 , RC, § Iaijutsu cut: Rising Blade. ¶3:
"If you succeed, you deal physical damage to the target equal to the weapon's deadliness. Your target cannot defend against this damage if they are Compromised."

Okay, I'm a little confused about the point you are making.
- Pg 179 says that if the target is Compromised, they cannot defend (i.e. receive fatigue equal to damage) against a Rising Blade attack. Hence they receive a critical strike (severity 5 with katana).
- Pg 259 says under Finishing Blow that if a target is Compromised, the character executes an interrupting attack that does a special critical (severity 10 with a katana).

So in a duel, the Rising Blade technique seems like a weaker version of the already present Finishing Blow rule governing duels. It really only has utility outside a duel, where the Finishing Blow rules don't apply, and a free critical strike is actually important.

Where I'm confused is that it looks like everyone is arguing something about this topic, but it looks like you are all agreeing with each other... I'm lost...

8 minutes ago, Shinjo Koetsu said:

Okay, I'm a little confused about the point you are making.
- Pg 179 says that if the target is Compromised, they cannot defend (i.e. receive fatigue equal to damage) against a Rising Blade attack. Hence they receive a critical strike (severity 5 with katana).
- Pg 259 says under Finishing Blow that if a target is Compromised, the character executes an interrupting attack that does a special critical (severity 10 with a katana).

So in a duel, the Rising Blade technique seems like a weaker version of the already present Finishing Blow rule governing duels. It really only has utility outside a duel, where the Finishing Blow rules don't apply, and a free critical strike is actually important.

Where I'm confused is that it looks like everyone is arguing something about this topic, but it looks like you are all agreeing with each other... I'm lost...

nah, @AK_Aramis is honestly thinking rising blade is good. he doesnt know. he doesn't want to (or cannot) understand...

what you can also mention is that since rising blade is tn3, and crossing cut tn2, then to do that finishing blow, you'd rather take crossing cut. making rising blade totally useless for duels IF you have crossing cut, if you don't have crossing cut, sure.. use the weaker rising blade...

3 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

nah, @AK_Aramis is honestly thinking rising blade is good.

It is great... as a Scorpion assassination kata. Rile someone up in a private conversation, cause them to become compromised, then critical strike them. It just doesn't seem to add anything to a duel.

59 minutes ago, Shinjo Koetsu said:

It is great... as a Scorpion assassination kata. Rile someone up in a private conversation, cause them to become compromised, then critical strike them. It just doesn't seem to add anything to a duel.

The ignonomy of capture... Capture is far better... you humiliate the captive, their spouse and children, their lord, and their fellows. You destroy them socially. At least if your Rokugan has the same view of captives as historical Japan, or even of Pillowbook versions of Japan.

And the security of NOT killing someone - see below.

1 hour ago, Shinjo Koetsu said:

Okay, I'm a little confused about the point you are making.
- Pg 179 says that if the target is Compromised, they cannot defend (i.e. receive fatigue equal to damage) against a Rising Blade attack. Hence they receive a critical strike (severity 5 with katana).
- Pg 259 says under Finishing Blow that if a target is Compromised, the character executes an interrupting attack that does a special critical (severity 10 with a katana).

So in a duel, the Rising Blade technique seems like a weaker version of the already present Finishing Blow rule governing duels. It really only has utility outside a duel, where the Finishing Blow rules don't apply, and a free critical strike is actually important.

Where I'm confused is that it looks like everyone is arguing something about this topic, but it looks like you are all agreeing with each other... I'm lost...

One issue you are having is misreading the text on 259. It doesn't say strike, it says "Attack action"; nor does it say it's it's own action.. As a Strike requires a ready weapon, and in a duel you are unready unless you draw as an action, so your finishing blow is a punch if you don't use Iaijutsu or lose a prior turn to draw (and telegraph that you don't know how to Iaijutsu - for some clans, that's going to be a glory hit, for others, a point of pride... and the opp spend for a minor preparatory action is not going to cut it for having it out in a duel...).

In duels to first strike or first blood, the bypass of doing damage - if target is compromised, it doesn't do damage - so the double of the finishing blow is never triggered. In other words, you get 5+BS instead of 10+(2*BS). Crossing is almost always lethal levels in the finishing blow, as it does damage and only damage.... so the severity is 10+2*BS, and 12+ is lethal. By not doing damage, Rising allows a less lethal strike - 5+BS severity - which is practically impossible to be lethal unless they're already injured (and that's only likely on the battlefield clash, so is a non-issue, anyway.

If the duel was over a niggling little issue, and you kill someone of lower status over it, welcome to HR honor loss (see, and a glory loss for being out of control. See 303, LC § "Breaches of Honor", and 304, § "Forfeiting Glory" subsection major...

7 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

In duels to first strike or first blood, the bypass of doing damage - if target is compromised, it doesn't do damage - so the double of the finishing blow is never triggered. In other words, you get 5+BS instead of 10+(2*BS).

Okay, I'm really confused by what you mean here. On Pg 258, it states that Iaijutsu Duel to first strike is to first critical strike. Iaijutsu duel to first blood is to first critical strike of severity 5 or higher. Basically, with a katana, they are both the same. A critical strike is required to win.

12 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

In other words, you get 5+BS instead of 10+(2*BS). Crossing is almost always lethal levels in the finishing blow, as it does damage and only damage.... so the severity is 10+2*BS, and 12+ is lethal. By not doing damage, Rising allows a less lethal strike - 5+BS severity - which is practically impossible to be lethal unless they're already injured (and that's only likely on the battlefield clash, so is a non-issue, anyway.

If the duel was over a niggling little issue, and you kill someone of lower status over it, welcome to HR honor loss (see, and a glory loss for being out of control. See 303, LC § "Breaches of Honor", and 304, § "Forfeiting Glory" subsection major...

Okay, let's see if I am interpreting you correctly.

Pg 259: "The first time their opponent becomes Compromised or unmasks during a duel, a character may immediately execute a finishing blow." (Emphasis is mine).

Are you suggesting that with Rising Cut, you can opt to not use the Finishing Blow (at TN2), and instead use the Rising Cut kata (at TN3) to inflict a less severe critical strike? That the "power" of this kata is the demonstration of self-control?

I'm also confused by what you mean with:

15 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

By not doing damage, Rising allows a less lethal strike...

The attack is either defended against (blocked, dodged, etc) using Fatigue, and officially "misses", or it hits with a critical strike. I don't understand what you mean by Rising Cut not doing damage.

Ok, I think I figured out what @AK_Aramis is trying to say. I think he's wrong, though. In a finishing blow, because it's a critical hit instead of dealing damage, there's no functional difference between the Iaijutsus (except one has a higher TN). Here's how the Iaijutsus go in a finishing blow:

Crossing Cut: "If you succeed, you deal physical damage equal to the weapon's deadliness". Except you don't, because it's a finishing blow, so you deal a crit with severity equal to 2*DLS

Rising Blade: "If you succeed, [yadda yadda]. Your target can't defend against this damage if he is Compromised." But this last sentence doesn't matter in a Finishing Blow, because you never deal damage in a Finishing Blow anyway, so it's just 2*DLS again.

BOTH techniques deal a 10+bonus successes strength crit in Finishing Blows.

The only use for Rising Blade in one-strike duels seems to be if the target starts the duel already compromised (and he doesn't Unmask right before it starts), because then you can't Finishing Blow him. Of course, then that's just sad, because compromised people aren't really succeeding at checks, seeing as about half the successes have Strife attached.

...

I agree with JBento's interpretation, but I think that there are more ways to get use out of the 'softer' rising cut than it first seems.

The first use of Rising Cut is something that AK brought up. It lets you draw and attack in a single action. Granted, in a finishing blow, it has no particular advantage over Crossing Blade in this regard (Other than the slightly useful fact that two schools can have it earlier).

The other concern is striking before the target unmasks. In this scenario, we have to assume that rising blade is being used for its control relative to a finishing blow, which will land a more permanent injury.

A target an unmask at the beginning or end of their turn, so if they become compromised on their own turn, Rising Blade is of limited use. By the time you get to use it the target will no longer be compromised. If you are able to bait your opponent into compromising with predict though (or maybe even with initiative) or they compromise because of strife from the turn number, then not taking the finishing blow for the softer crit from Rising Blade might be a tempting option.

Another use for Rising Blade is socially. Unmasking in a duel is probably more humiliating than in many other places. If your opponent knows that you can attain a relatively easy win they will be forced to unmask at the end of their turn. A potentially embarrassing scenario, and making your TN for your next action easier, regardless of its ability to auto crit. Against an opponent without Rising Blade, one might consider remaining compromised themselves, waiting for their opponent to join them in that state, and risking a finishing blow that would be more deadly to your character than a more traditional strike might.

So whilst Rising Blade is of limited use in a duel, it is certainly an interesting thing for a duelist to have in their toolkit. As it is also an excellent way for duelists to use their skills in a skirmish, it is 3 xp I would always be happy to spend.

Note that you can ALSO Finishing Blow people when they first become Compromised, not just when they Unmask. Rising Cut seems to be useless in duels unless you're expecting to a) deal AT LEAST 1.5 times your opponent's Composure in Strife during the duel AND b) miss the Finishing Blow.

It's useful in Skirmishes, though.

You can finishing blow when someone becomes compromised, for a severity 10 minimum crit. In limited situations, I concede incredibly limited situations, a duelist who is able to might forgo taking that finishing blow to strike with Rising Cut instead.

Finishing blows remove arms as standard, in a duel to the first strike, that might seem an over reaction.

4 minutes ago, Amanda the Panda said:

You can finishing blow when someone becomes compromised, for a severity 10 minimum crit. In limited situations, I concede incredibly limited situations, a duelist who is able to might forgo taking that finishing blow to strike with Rising Cut instead.

Finishing blows remove arms as standard, in a duel to the first strike, that might seem an over reaction.

Narratively, you could be right.

You could refuse to take the finishing blow, and let the opponent unmask.

But if he doesnt unmask on your next turn you could force him, socially, to unmask or then use rising blade.

Not absolutely wrong.

But that really doesnt save rising blade from being a poor man's crossing cut for duels.

Some of the people around these forums have suggested great ways to make rising cut its own entity, in a good thematic and mechanic way.

Just now, Avatar111 said:

Narratively, you could be right.

You could refuse to take the finishing blow, and let the opponent unmask.

But if he doesnt unmask on your next turn you could force him, socially, to unmask or then use rising blade.

Not absolutely wrong.

But that really doesnt save rising blade from being a poor man's crossing cut for duels.

Some of the people around these forums have suggested great ways to make rising cut its own entity, in a good thematic and mechanic way.

This is absolutely all factually correct. I would argue though, that crossing cut (outside of a finishing blow) is inferior to a regular strike. Only the regular strike has the chance to crit from spending opportunity.

I don't think that the techniques are supposed to replace the traditional strike, rather give situational use. The situational use of Rising Blade seems to be for when someone compromises in a skirmish, or as a narrative choice in duels.

Of course whilst I am okay with that, others don't have to be. I am not looking to argue, just point out things as I see them.

Crossing Cut (well, either Iaijutsu) is superior to Strike if a fight starts with your weapons sheathed and you don't want to be in Water stance, or want to use the Water bonus action for other purposes (like closing in on the enemy).

I'm not sure WHY your opponent wouldn't unmask, because Compromised is bad. Like, really, really bad. To the point where, if you're Compromised your options are reduced to lowering your Strife by a BUNCH or leaving the encounter and THEN lowering your Strife by a bunch.

Here's something that might make Rising Cut SLIIIIIIGHLTY better - if you don't win a duel via Finishing Blow, you get extra Glory and Honour because you've decided against taking advantage of your opponent's moment of vulnerability and have instead defeated them at their best. Of course, if you DON'T take advantage of the Finishing Blow and LOSE, then you take a extra G/H hit, because you're a dumbass who can't fight tactically and make use of your opponent's weakness to see the day.

4 minutes ago, Amanda the Panda said:

This is absolutely all factually correct. I would argue though, that crossing cut (outside of a finishing blow) is inferior to a regular strike. Only the regular strike has the chance to crit from spending opportunity.

I don't think that the techniques are supposed to replace the traditional strike, rather give situational use. The situational use of Rising Blade seems to be for when someone compromises in a skirmish, or as a narrative choice in duels.

Of course whilst I am okay with that, others don't have to be. I am not looking to argue, just point out things as I see them.

Both iaijutsu cuts allows you to draw your weapon also, which is good for a duel.

Right now, the way the duels are designed is not about the fantasy of the "one strike" that we have in our mind. At least not until rank 3 or 4.

Duels as is, even the one to first blood, are probably often won using the "attack early and a lot" option.

In that case, crossing cut allows a dragon samurai to draw and attack (with bonus dmg) in one round. Probably get 1 opportunity and get his second weapon out too! He will be a menace next round. Is aim is to make you incapacitated to win or get a lucky crit.

But there are a lot of other things that we need to factor in. Especially if you've read this thread from the beginning.

Earth Stance is a bit OP because you cannot be crit with opps, and you probably have a high composure.

There is another debate here, which is much deeper than just duels;

The composure. As is, the clans with most composures are probably crabs, unicorns ans lions. And the people who blow a fuse all time are crane, scorpion.. Which to me is very counter intuitive to what it should be, thematically, for l5r.

You have guys like Kakita Duelist who have ton of air (a dump stat in this game, really, aside if you are shinobi). Super low composure. And then big guy hida or matsu berserker have ton of composure...

Rising blade clearly being a design mistake. (Yes we can salvage it, but it was intended for duels. And right now it is less good than the iaijutsu attack that seems intended for skirmishes (more reach etc)

This game rule system is broken in many many ways.

Its hard to swallow, but for some people, it is clear that it needs a reprint, with HEAVY corrections.

I think that's what we are trying to figure out. Is it salvageable?

I don't think it needs a reprint. I DEFINITELY think there's like half a dozen places where it needs an added sentence or two.

And for the record, MY Crane has 12 Composure at the start. Also, Air is MOST DEFINIITELY not a dump stat if you're a Bushi, because it seems to have the only AoE they can get (Hiiiii, Thunderclap Strike) which lets you apply conditions and effects via Opps with other techniques to multiple opponents.

Honestly, my only problem there is that you are assuming it is a design mistake, rather than that you are wrong about the intent. Mechanically, the game plays just fine. The only thing that could be gained from a reprint would be renaming Iaijutsu: Rising Blade to Iaijutsu: Skirmish Cut.

EDIT: This is obviously an exaggeration. There are one or two things that desperately need an errata. I just don't think that the Iaijutsu kata are one of them.

The fantasy of the single strike is represented by the finishing blow. Two duelists take each others measure, waiting for one to have a crack in their composure.

The problem isn't that dueling is bad. The problem is that dueling is different from what people imagined.

3 minutes ago, Amanda the Panda said:

Honestly, my only problem there is that you are assuming it is a design mistake, rather than that you are wrong about the intent. Mechanically, the game plays just fine. The only thing that could be gained from a reprint would be renaming Iaijutsu: Rising Blade to Iaijutsu: Skirmish Cut.

EDIT: This is obviously an exaggeration. There are one or two things that desperately need an errata. I just don't think that the Iaijutsu kata are one of them.

The fantasy of the single strike is represented by the finishing blow. Two duelists take each others measure, waiting for one to have a crack in their composure.

The problem isn't that dueling is bad. The problem is that dueling is different from what people imagined.

I know this is not a strong argument, but you have crossing cut that is like a zoning strike with more reach.

And then rising cut, that is more personal and have the fantasy attached to finishing blow to it.

Its hard not to raise an eyebrow. But you could be right.

Duels are.. well.. the best duelist is a earth/water stance character. I think. At least until higher ranks.

7 minutes ago, JBento said:

I don't think it needs a reprint. I DEFINITELY think there's like half a dozen places where it needs an added sentence or two.

And for the record, MY Crane has 12 Composure at the start. Also, Air is MOST DEFINIITELY not a dump stat if you're a Bushi, because it seems to have the only AoE they can get (Hiiiii, Thunderclap Strike) which lets you apply conditions and effects via Opps with other techniques to multiple opponents.

Air is the weakest ring. By far.

Because composure is that good.

You took Daidoji with Daidoji school, good for you! The best crane.

But try to make an Air/Fire/Void courtier or shugenja. The thing is absurd. You have like 6 or 8 composure. Which is what doji courtier kakita duelist and friends get.

And in l5r (i know, not a valid argument) but thematically, samurai with higher honor have more composure than mr.hida or miss.matsu

I just think they got everything all wrong.

Im still on board for a "big rework", but i could very much drop the towel soon. Because i cannot shake that feeling out of my head that this game is anything good past a "beta" state.

Yes, please drop the towel and go somewhere else! That would improve things all around.

8 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

One issue you are having is misreading the text on 259. It doesn't say strike, it says "Attack action"; nor does it say it's it's own action..

This is all I really needed to know - Rising Cut IS supposed to be used as a finishing blow. The technique now makes sense. I missed that finishing blow was an "Attack Action" and not "As an Attack Action", so I assume rules as intended is that you have a valid Attack Action readied when the trigger happens.

Just now, Avatar111 said:

I know this is not a strong argument, but you have crossing cut that is like a zoning strike with more reach.

And then rising cut, that is more personal and have the fantasy attached to finishing blow to it.

Its hard not to raise an eyebrow. But you could be right.

Duels are.. well.. the best duelist is a earth/water stance character. I think. At least until higher ranks.

Reach is not a factor in duels. All abilities are specifically stated to work regardless of range.

I absolutely see what you mean though. I absolutely understand why some people are confused, and why some people that are not confused still don't like it.

I really like fire for dueling, but only on builds with good strife management. Water really is the king of duel stats though. (Predict: Earth on turn one, followed up by draw and strike is a strong combo)

Dueling is... Well, it is special to a lot of players, and is the one thing that I have seen argued about the most in every edition of the game. Every designer seems to have a different image of how it should be, and every time they seem to erk a lot of people with it.

I think this edition, more than any other (and not just in dueling) needs the GM and the player to work together to fit their vision. That is good for me, I like that kind of game. Others do not, and that is fine too. I just hope that we can all come together and continue to have friendly discussion about what we want and how we see things.

3 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

This is all I really needed to know - Rising Cut IS supposed to be used as a finishing blow. The technique now makes sense. I missed that finishing blow was an "Attack Action" and not "As an Attack Action", so I assume rules as intended is that you have a valid Attack Action readied when the trigger happens.

Read it carefully. It allows you to take an attack action.

Strike is the same think as Rising Cut, they both are attack actions.

3 minutes ago, Amanda the Panda said:

Reach is not a factor in duels. All abilities are specifically stated to work regardless of range.

(Predict: Earth on turn one, followed up by draw and strike is a strong combo)

One more reason why a iaijutsu technique with more reach, seems more intended for skirmishes.

Predict Earth is necessary because Earth stance is absurdely good and totally break the duel to first critical strike. Until higher ranks when you have heartpiercing strike.

All this is not good design.

If you turtle in earth though, you are going to get beaten down. It is going to be embarrassing if that fire based bushi hammers away your 14 fatigue and compromises. You can end the duel but still lose on points.

5 minutes ago, Amanda the Panda said:

If you turtle in earth though, you are going to get beaten down. It is going to be embarrassing if that fire based bushi hammers away your 14 fatigue and compromises. You can end the duel but still lose on points.

you can strike with earth too. and maybe crit him and win one shot.

edit: yes, you could still lose on points. your way is valid. not sure i like the fantasy of that (and many other lost souls here also), but sure. and hopefully that fire bushi doesn't compromise because, he then probably just lost.