First, I'm a huge fan of L5R. I've been collecting books since 3e, and wrote up a tonne of characters for 4e (all gone now...), but unfortunately I don't actually have a group to play with, so I don't really have anyone to help me understand things if I have questions. Hence this post.

I'm having a little trouble getting my head around the dueling mechanic. For the sake of this post, let's use two different characters.

Kakita Ken (Air 3, Earth 2, Fire 2, Water 1, Void 2; Endurance 8, Composure 6, Focus 5, Vigilance 2; Martial Arts [Melee] 1, Meditation 2; Iaijutsu Cut: Rising Blade)
Hida Hiro (Air 1, Earth 3, Fire 2, Water 3, Void 1; Endurance 10, Composure 12, Focus 3, Vigilance 2; Martial Arts [Melee] 1, Mediation 1)

Both characters were partially created using the "Creating a Character" section. All rolls will be actual results from dice. The duel will be to First Strike.

Duel Attempt #1:

- Kakita Ken rolls initiative using the Air stance. He gets 1 success, 2 advantages, and no strife. He adds this to his Focus, for a total initiative of 6.
- Hida Hiro rolls initiative using the Earth stance. He gets 3 successes, 0 advantages, and 2 strife. He adds this to his Focus, for a total initiative of 6. His composure is now at 2/12.

- Round 1 starts. Both characters receive 1 strife. Neither character bid strife to increase initiative, so the tie goes to Hida Hiro, who has the lower honor.
- Hida Hiro uses the "Center" action. He picks Martial Arts [Melee], and rolls 2k1. Both dice are blank, so he doesn't put anything aside.
- Kakita Ken uses the "Strike" action while still in Air stance. He uses his "Iaijutsu Cut: Rising Blade" technique, rolling 4k3 at TN3. He misses, accumulating 1 strife.

- At the moment, Kakita Ken is at 2 strife, and Hida Hiro is at 3 strife. The "duel" devolves into a brawl to see who can inflict the first critical strike.

Duel Attempt #2:

- Kakita Ken rolls initiative using the Void Stance. He gets 3 successes, and ignores all strife from this roll. He adds this to his Focus, for a total initiative of 8.
- Hida Hiro rolls initiative using the Water Stance. He gets 2 successes, 1 advantage, and 1 strife. He adds this to his Focus, for a total initiative of 5.

- Round 1 starts. Both characters receive 1 strife, and again neither bids strife to increase initiative (I'm not even sure why they would). Both center.
- Round 2 starts. Both characters receive 2 strife. Kakita Ken is now at 3 strife (with a Composure of 6), and Hida Hiro is now at 4 strife (with a Composure of 12). Both center.
- Round 3 starts. Both characters receive 3 strife. Kakita Ken loses his composure, and Hida Hiro attempts a Finishing Blow, rolling 4k3 from Water stance versus a TN2. If he had got the two successes necessary, he would have won the duel. Instead, he gets 1 success and 1 advantage. The duel devolves into a brawl.

My misunderstandings?

Okay, I know there is something I'm missing. My two attempts boil down to:
(a) jumping the gun and forcing a skirmish instead, or
(b) waiting out to see who has the largest Composure (which will clearly be the Earth/Water build).

I know that I'm not using either character's Initiative really, nor their Focus to bid strife to increase Initiative. I know that I'm missing the majority of mechanics, because any action besides Attack/Center doesn't seem to come into play.

Also, it seems to me like the inferior duelist can just immediately attack every time, forcing a skirmish situation where they have a better chance for success.

So what am I missing?

The duel system is very tactical. That means your choices will be shaped by your opponents dessessions as much as theirs will be shaped by yours.

If someone chooses to just keep striking, you can choose to "follow suit" and strike back, or try to rock their scissors.

If someone just tried striking me, I would probably switch to water stance for the extra action. Then strike back while using predict on whatever they keep using or a good striking stance like fire.

Once they are compromised they you get the finishing blow (p.259) and probably end the duel there.

Sorry if this last the best explanation, distracted and on mobile. Basically, bonzieing your opponent is a valid stratagem but their are valled stratagem to counter that. Many fight, especially among junior Samaria who have few special techniques will devolve to spank and tank.

I'm a bit confused by dueling as well. It seems it's gone from a 3 step ritual (assessment, focus, strike) to a skirmish were both duelist are feinting/striking all the time until one deals a meaningful blow. It doesn't really fit with my vision of a traditional duel with 2 guys crossing full speed and delivering a single cut.

So I hope they retain the optional dueling rule from the beta update (a single opposed roll) or I will houserule a custom system. The strife bid for initiative is a good idea and makes duelist with high composure better as they can bid higher and easily strike first while not risking compromise. It's something that I will try to keep.

They kept the optional rule... I don’t have my book with me to tell you if they kept it just like the Beta or if they modify it, but yes they offer you an alternative.

*Warning* I have yet to get my copy of the core rule book yet so I am going off of the updated playtest rules.

One thing to note is that readying a weapon is an action. This means that those without an Iaijutsu Cut technique cannot draw and attack with a Katana in one turn outside Water Stance. This makes Predict very good at preventing those without the techniques from getting a first strike.

You can resolve quicker with what is called a Clash in the book, used when two military leaders call each other out for example.

To be fair I don't miss the lessened relevance of one strike duels. They are fine and fun as an art form or for when two really really good masters exchange devastating blows, but for normal situations it just felt like trying to force That One Movie Finale into every. Single. Duel.
Embracing that duels can and will last a little longer opens up the endless narrative possibilities.

Oh yes... The narrative... ?

7 hours ago, Falendor said:

If someone just tried striking me, I would probably switch to water stance for the extra action. Then strike back while using predict on whatever they keep using or a good striking stance like fire.

Once they are compromised they you get the finishing blow (p.259) and probably end the duel there.

4 hours ago, Shosur0 said:

I'm a bit confused by dueling as well. It seems it's gone from a 3 step ritual (assessment, focus, strike) to a skirmish were both duelist are feinting/striking all the time until one deals a meaningful blow.

So if I understand correctly, the "dueling" rules simulate a 1-on-1 skirmish with feinting, dueling, and out-thinking your opponent. Something other than "My turn... I attack and hit. Your turn... you attack and hit. My turn..."

Okay, given that mechanic, that's actually pretty cool, and would make for some epic 1-on-1 fights. But like Shosur0 said, it isn't really my idea of what I imagine with Rokugani dueling. I think I might homebrew something more like the Assessment/Focus/Strike formula used in previous versions. I really want to keep the Strife aspect, however.

My idea so far, using Sentiment, Mediation, and Martial Arts [Melee] :
- Assessment Stage: Pick your fixed stance for the duel. Character's without an Iaijutsu technique would need to select the Water stance. Roll Sentiment . Each success gives you one piece of information, including (a) Opponent's Composure stat, (b) Opponent's current level of strife, (c) Oppenent's stance, or (d) Opponent's Meditation rank. Opponents can now forfeit the match if they wish.
- Focus Stage: In your same stance, each player simultaneously rolls Meditation . Strife generated on your rolls add to your total strife, while successes on your rolls add to your opponent's strife. Both opponents reveal their kept dice and resolve both at the same time, giving the option of both duelists exceeding their composure and having a kharmic strike occur. This mechanic gives a major advantage to anyone with the Iaijutsu technique being able to use the Void stance and not add to their own strife... or the Fire stance and generate a tonne of successes at the expense of quickly adding to their own strife.
- Strike Stage: When the first opponent exceeds their Composure , the other character gets a Finishing Blow, using their Martial Arts [Melee] skill and their current stance.

I'd have to play around with it to see if it works, and whether it balances fine between the classes. My goal is to have the Kakita remain supreme in dueling, followed by the Mirumoto.

27 minutes ago, Shinjo Koetsu said:

My idea so far, using Sentiment, Mediation, and Martial Arts [Melee] :
- Assessment Stage: Pick your fixed stance for the duel. Character's without an Iaijutsu technique would need to select the Water stance. Roll Sentiment . Each success gives you one piece of information, including (a) Opponent's Composure stat, (b) Opponent's current level of strife, (c) Oppenent's stance, or (d) Opponent's Meditation rank. Oppone  nts can now forfeit the match if they wish.
- Focus Stage: In your same stance, each player simultaneously rolls Meditation . Strife generated on your rolls add to your total strife, while successes on your rolls add to your opponent's strife. Both opponents reveal their kept dice and resolve both at the same time, giving the option of both duelists exceeding their composure and having a kharmic strike occur. This mechanic gives a major advantage to anyone with the Iaijutsu technique being able to use the Void stance and not add to their own strife... or the Fire stance and generate a tonne of successes at the expense of quickly adding to their own strife.
- Strike Stage: When the first opponent exceeds their Composure , the other character gets a Finishing Blow, using their Martial Arts [Melee] skill and their current stance.

I'd have to play around with it to see if it works, and whether it balances fine between the classes. My goal is to have the Kakita remain supreme in dueling, followed by the Mirumoto.

Sounds really nice tbh. Gonna test it as soon as I get my book and make some characters. Neat!

On 10/14/2018 at 4:06 PM, Shinjo Koetsu said:

Kakita Ken (Air 3, Earth 2, Fire 2, Water 1, Void 2; Endurance 8, Composure 6, Focus 5, Vigilance 2; Martial Arts [Melee] 1, Meditation 2; Iaijutsu Cut: Rising Blade)

Hida Hiro (Air 1, Earth 3, Fire 2, Water 3, Void 1; Endurance 10, Composure 12, Focus 3, Vigilance 2; Martial Arts [Melee] 1, Mediation 1)

1 hour ago, Shinjo Koetsu said:

My idea so far, using Sentiment, Mediation, and Martial Arts [Melee] :

- Assessment Stage: Pick your fixed stance for the duel. Character's without an Iaijutsu technique would need to select the Water stance. Roll Sentiment . Each success gives you one piece of information, including (a) Opponent's Composure stat, (b) Opponent's current level of strife, (c) Oppenent's stance, or (d) Opponent's Meditation rank. Opponents can now forfeit the match if they wish.
- Focus Stage: In your same stance, each player simultaneously rolls Meditation . Strife generated on your rolls add to your total strife, while successes on your rolls add to your opponent's strife. Both opponents reveal their kept dice and resolve both at the same time, giving the option of both duelists exceeding their composure and having a kharmic strike occur. This mechanic gives a major advantage to anyone with the Iaijutsu technique being able to use the Void stance and not add to their own strife... or the Fire stance and generate a tonne of successes at the expense of quickly adding to their own strife.
- Strike Stage: When the first opponent exceeds their Composure , the other character gets a Finishing Blow, using their Martial Arts [Melee] skill and their current stance.

Okay, so I've been playing around with this idea, rolling dice using these two characters. A couple interesting things:
- Composure is INCREDIBLY important. The Kakita is getting destroyed due to his low composure.
- Void stance is useless using this idea, since a single Opportunity die can be spent to negate 1 strife on the same roll (Pg 328) in any stance
- Water stance allows you to spend opportunity to remove 2 strife, making it one of the best default stances... which is the exact opposite of what I was hoping for.
- Fire lets you spend a single Opportunity die to inflame your opponent, giving them an additional 2 strife. This is actually the Kakita's best bet for winning the duel, yet goes completely against the "flavor" of the dueling Kakita.

So I'm going to go back to the drawing board and scrap the "successes give opponents strife" concept. Not sure what I'm going to try next, but my design goals are:
- Kakita should be most effective in Air and/or Void stances.
- Mirumoto should be most effective in Fire stance.
- Water stance, which is the default for anyone without an Iaijutsu technique, should be the weakest stance.

... and this is probably what I'm going to be obsessing over when I'm at work tomorrow... =P

On ‎10‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 11:06 PM, Shinjo Koetsu said:

Okay, I know there is something I'm missing. My two attempts boil down to:
(a) jumping the gun and forcing a skirmish instead, or
(b) waiting out to see who has the largest Composure (which will clearly be the Earth/Water build).

I know that I'm not using either character's Initiative really, nor their Focus to bid strife to increase Initiative. I know that I'm missing the majority of mechanics, because any action besides Attack/Center doesn't seem to come into play.

Also, it seems to me like the inferior duelist can just immediately attack every time, forcing a skirmish situation where they have a better chance for success.

So what am I missing?

Attacking immediately does essentially turn it into a skirmish-by-another-name.

The difference is in the victory conditions.

If you're in a 'Warrior's Duel' and the aim is to incapacitate the opponent, you want to strike, strike, strike until the other guy falls over. Every 2 successes drops a load of fatigue on them and sooner or later their endurance runs out.

To First Strike, you might as well do the same, because 2 successes and 2 opportunity are not that hard to get, unless you're a courtier who's ended up in a duel despite their efforts, and need to centre to 'stack up' the rolls required.

'Duel to First Blood' is a different animal. Bleeding requires a severity 7 critical strike after your opponent's fitness check (and potential reroll for parrying). That means you needs 2 successes to hit them, 2 opportunities to get a critical and probably at least 1 further opportunity to increase the severity of the hit. Therefore void centre, void centre, water ready/strike (or ring-of-your-choice iaijutsu) makes sense.

Equally, Predict is key for dealing with a non-iaijutsu-trained, not especially skilled opponent. If you predict water, they cannot draw their blade and attack - because if they do, they'll take 4 strife (added to the 'turn number' strife) and be forced to pick another stance, which means they have to spend their action readying their weapon. Equally, once their weapon is out, predict Void basically locks out the centre action meaning that if you can't roll the hit off unmodified dice you're basically stuck waiting for a finishing blow. Added to that, because predict (unlike centre) isn't ring-locked, it means you can do it in air stance where you're harder than normal to hit.

Also, don't forget other opportunities; for example, Ken rolled two advantages on his air meditation check. That's enough to (for example) spend as a fire opportunity and put a point of strife on Hiro.

On ‎10‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 11:06 PM, Shinjo Koetsu said:

- Kakita Ken uses the "Strike" action while still in Air stance. He uses his "Iaijutsu Cut: Rising Blade" technique, rolling 4k3 at TN3. He misses, accumulating 1 strife.

Nitpick - no he doesn't. The Kakita is using an Iaijutsu Cut: Rising Blade action. Strike is the name of the basic attack action.

I agree composure is critical. That's one thing I'm disappointed - looking at the character sheet - to see. I'd been lead to believe that Air now helped with composure. Without it, you need to either win quickly (composure 6 is catastrophically low for a duellist) or else spend a lot of opportunities (or calming breaths) bleeding off strife.

Bleeding requires only 3 severity crit if you are criting with Razor Edged weapon. And you probably are.
There is a reason why one of Rings you can get for being a Kakita is fire ;). Fire/Air is really good for aggressive dueling, and I imagine this combo would be "Lightning".
Kakita are great at dueling from Air because they can start with Opp: "Add 1 Kept Ring Dice Showing OPP to my next martial check" in initiative and then just start throwing them strikes, fishing not for a hand that keeps 2 success 2 opps, but just 2 success and 1 opp (as they get the 1 opp for free from that opportunity).
Similarly, you can strife bomb your opponent for 4 strife before their turn even starts using Fire, simply by going Opp: Inflame on Initiative, and then Opp: Inflame on your first action. Honestly, if Im a kakita, I wouldnt mind missing with my initial iaijutsu draw if it would mean keeping 3 opp - 1 for inflame, 2 for "anyone trying to attack or scheme me gets 2 strife". Thats usually enough to strife out an opponent. It also requires very little Strife of your own, as unless you are going for the "dont touch me" option, all you need is to keep 2 opportunity (hopefully from a skill) dice. Naturally high Focus also means you can relatively safely ignore the need to keep actual successes on the initiative

19 minutes ago, WHW said:

Naturally high Focus also means you can relatively safely ignore the need to keep actual successes on the initiative

That's a very good point.

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Attacking immediately does essentially turn it into a skirmish-by-another-name.

The difference is in the victory conditions.

If you're in a 'Warrior's Duel' and the aim is to incapacitate the opponent, you want to strike, strike, strike until the other guy falls over. Every 2 successes drops a load of fatigue on them and sooner or later their endurance runs out.

To First Strike, you might as well do the same, because 2 successes and 2 opportunity are not that hard to get, unless you're a courtier who's ended up in a duel despite their efforts, and need to centre to 'stack up' the rolls required.

'Duel to First Blood' is a different animal. Bleeding requires a severity 7 critical strike after your opponent's fitness check (and potential reroll for parrying). That means you needs 2 successes to hit them, 2 opportunities to get a critical and probably at least 1 further opportunity to increase the severity of the hit. Therefore void centre, void centre, water ready/strike (or ring-of-your-choice iaijutsu) makes sense.

Okay, this makes sense to me what they were going for. It's still strange to me that a duel to first strike basically becomes two people swinging swords at each other, but at least the duel to first blood is thematically appropriate. It still feels kind of weird and clunky to me, however, and is better suited for a 1-on-1 fight than an honor duel.

1 hour ago, WHW said:

Kakita are great at dueling from Air because they can start with Opp: "Add 1 Kept Ring Dice Showing OPP to my next martial check" in initiative and then just start throwing them strikes...
Similarly, you can strife bomb your opponent for 4 strife before their turn even starts using Fire, simply by going Opp: Inflame on Initiative...

Mechanically these both seem to work very well, but when you picture a Kakita dueling, are you envisioning them chopping at the air until they hit, or inflaming their opponent?

Feinting can be, well, Feinting. Narrate it approprietly. An Attack action != a single chop. It can be variety of things
And Kakita destroying their enemies with the mere presence and strength of their ki isn't something new. Kenshinzen even had a technique about it, which paralyzed opponents. You keep calm, and it makes people start sweating and make errors .

Personally, I would make it so that any Iaijutsu Duel that is not to the death? You lose "duel points" for scoring on a missed Strike. Meaning that if you are fighting to the first strike or the first blood? You need to make your Attacks count or you are just helping your opponent win. I think that this help discourage the "Draw your sword and flail wildly until you land a hit" style of dueling.

24 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

Personally, I would make it so that any Iaijutsu Duel that is not to the death? You lose "duel points" for scoring on a missed Strike. Meaning that if you are fighting to the first strike or the first blood? You need to make your Attacks count or you are just helping your opponent win. I think that this help discourage the "Draw your sword and flail wildly until you land a hit" style of dueling.

Indeed. Adding a negative points value to "attack actions which do not cause a critical strike" seems sensible.

Kakita should always be going for the opportunity based crit strike, since they can jack up the severity by their school rank. That means it's in their best interest to lock their opponent out of earth stance almost as much as water.

54 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

Kakita should always be going for the opportunity based crit strike, since they can jack up the severity by their school rank. That means it's in their best interest to lock their opponent out of earth stance almost as much as water.

Ouch. That's a fair point; a duellist in earth stance cannot lose a duel to first blood without being incapacitated or compromised. Worth noting.

1 minute ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Ouch. That's a fair point; a duellist in earth stance cannot lose a duel to first blood without being incapacitated or compromised. Worth noting.

HIDA!

18 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

HIDA!

It's a workable strategy; Earth Stance, hunker down and use predict to try and push your opponent over their composure.

It's not great at winning but it's good at not losing.

Just now, Magnus Grendel said:

It's a workable strategy; Earth Stance, hunker down and use predict to try and push your opponent over their composure.

It's not great at winning but it's good at not losing.

Again, pretty much Hida. We don't have to win the war against the Shadowlands (as great as that would be), but we dang sure have to not lose it.

Even in previous editions the problem of what to do if both contestants missed the first strike was also an issue. There were a few different suggestions depending on the edition, but even in duels to first strike or to first blood the usual result was "switch to skirmish until someone wins."

The one roll dueling rules is the closest to previous editions in my opinion. Using that resolution method even favors Air, Fire, Void over Earth and Water. Earth and Water basically do not get their stance benefits in one roll duels. Air still works because the roll is explicitly an attack action, Fire is probably the strongest since bonus successes in the name of the game, and Void sort of middling since the result of ignoring strife doesn't help the duel directly but lets you remain composed into whatever else is going on around you.

Using the duel conflict rules really does come down to tactics and understanding your opponent. Even in a duel to first strike you still need a critical strike, as regular damage isn't a solid hit but glancing blows and wearing down your opponent. Water is very favored for those who don't have the proper Iaijutsu techniques, but that also means they are easier to Predict. That really comes down to Initiative however. Among newer characters a Kakita Duelist wants to go first, and their high Focus value helps with that. If the opponent did not use Earth for Initiative, go for the highest ring and try hard for those three success and two opportunities with Rising Cut. That can be hard though. If you are worried about getting that hit off, go Predict Water from either Air or Earth stance. Either they screw up and choose water (sufffering the 4 strife and still not being able to draw and strike), or they just draw/Center/Predict. Remember also you cannot Predict Void stance, so if your opponent goes for Predict, try to follow it up with a Center action if you are willing to take the lengthened duel and more Strife or a Void strike/Iaijustsu action if ready to end it. This can give Void a big advantage in duels.

The big weakness for Kakita is their low Composure early on, so they definitely want to go forward with strikes quickly before the Staredown provokes a Finishing Blow. Though they might take their chances in Air stance against a Finishing Blow. Young Kakita do tend to be cocky, so I'm good with this setup. They also do have some advantage in having Rising Cut. Since a Finishing Blow allows choosing an Attack action but doesn't necessarily include a draw, during an Iaijustu duel if the Kakita provokes a Finishing Blow before their opponent draw and that opponent doesn't have an Iaijutstu technique... well they missed their chance. Unless that opponent gives up on honor and just slugs their opponent! Win the physical aspect, but very dishonorable . However Iaijutsu techniques can be used as Finishing Blows, so that gets the weapon draw.

Yeah, as often only or close to only bushi in my groups, my primary way of getting some sword-action are duels. I'm super happy that it gives me now an opportunity to flex some tactics and generally go beyond % to see if I won Focus and then % to see if I struck my opponent, which after a certain point we just wrote a macro to do in one click instead of wasting time rolling it out, as there very little to no decision points involved.

Kakita who manages to crit you into wound penalties can absolutely then proceed to bait a finishing blow by bidding a lot of strife before you have a chance to switch your stance.

Also don't disrespect the Finishing Blow using Bite.