ST321 and Jendon

By thespaceinvader, in X-Wing Rules Questions

At the start of the Activation Phase, you may spend 1 . If you do, while friendly ships acquire locks this round, they must acquire locks beyond range 3 instead of at range 0-3.

After you perform a action, you may choose an enemy ship at range 0-3 of the ship you coordinated. If you do, acquire a lock on that enemy ship, ignoring range restrictions.

Combo or nonbo?

I want to say Jendon's ability affects the r0-3 in ST321 as well but that doesn't seem quite right.

Nonbo.

ST-321 has you choose a ship at range 0-3 of your coordinate target first, then acquire a lock on that chosen ship. Jendon's ability has no effect on that initial selection.

The only effect he might have is to make it impossible to acquire the lock at all if the chosen target is within range 0-3 of the shuttle...

EDIT: Below posters have convinced me this would not be the case.

Edited by DR4CO

Yah, thought not, just needed a second opinion. Kind of a shame, because it makes the krennic/tarkin/jendon thing even less useful.

This one is an interesting piece. As both are card-printed abilities, they are applied equally to the state of the game. Then, we are given conflict resolution rules for can and cannot - cannot is never overridden by an equally important can. How does must interact with may though?

EDIT: I like @Icelom 's simple response much better than what I've given below, so please go for that. But if you're really curious about my complex delusions, find them below.

What I'm about to do is hardly going to be a definitive explanation, but still - let's try to translate both effects so that they use the well-defined terms.

Quote

(...) while friendly ships acquire locks this round, they must acquire locks beyond range 3 instead of at range 0-3.

So, if a lock is to be acquired, the target must be beyond range 3. It may not be in range 0-3. So, trying to modify that using only a can will not describe the same effect:

Quote

while friendly ships acquire locks this round, they can acquire locks beyond range 3 instead of at range 0-3.

As it would allow acquiring locks both in 0-3 and beyond it. To have the same effect as initially, I'll use a combination of both terms:

Quote

while friendly ships acquire locks this round, they can acquire locks beyond range 3 and cannot acquire locks at range 0-3.

That's for the Jendon's ability. Now, to the title:

Quote

(...) If you do, acquire a lock on that enemy ship, ignoring range restrictions. 

So, while some restrictions are in place, we are free to ignore them? This means that:

Quote

(...) If you do, acquire a lock on that enemy ship. While doing so, you can ignore range restrictions. 

The normal restriction is that locks can only be acquired in range 0-3. So if we include the most basic restriction in the text and reduce it a bit for readability, we end up with:

Quote

(...) If you do, acquire a lock on that enemy ship, you can do so ignoring the 0-3 range restriction.

But just because we can doesn't mean we lose the ability to respect the restriction, so the full statement would be:

Quote

(...) If you do, acquire a lock on that enemy ship, you can do so in the 0-3 range and can do so beyond range 3.

So, all in all, I have ended up with:

  • two "can" statements allowing me to lock out of 0-3 range,
  • one " can" statement allowing me to lock in the 0-3 range,
  • one "cannot" statement preventing me from locking inside of the 0-3 range.
We've got a conflict, but the winner is clear and it's cannot - in this interaction, locks can only be acquired at beyond 3 range. As I said though, the whole reasoning is just wishful bending of the written card-rules to so it uses terms we know how to compare for priority.
Edited by ryfterek

While Jendon's ability is active and " while friendly ships acquire locks this round, they must acquire locks beyond range 3 instead of at range 0-3 ". Then, separately, ST-321 allows you to "choose an enemy ship at range 0-3 of the ship you coordinated . If you do, acquire a lock on that enemy ship, ignoring range restrictions  ." 

As already established, there's no reason that Jendon would effect the range at which you select the ship, as that is not "while acquiring locks". It's a separate step from a unique ability. Then, after having selected the ship, you acquire a lock on it.

So, which effect takes precedence? Jendon's or ST-321's? I would argue that the answer lies in the phrase "
ignoring range restrictions ". One of two things happens:
- If you're acquiring the lock beyond range 3 already, because you're ignoring range restrictions, Jendon's ability doesn't trigger at all.
- If you're acquiring the lock at range 0-3, then maybe* Jendon's ability does trigger. However, that, in itself, is a range restriction. Therefore you ignore it.

Either way, you're free to acquire the lock at any range, regardless of Jendon's ability. That'd be my interpretation.

*Footnote: I say "maybe" because there's an argument to be made that Jendon's ability doesn't trigger at any range, having already ignored the range 0-3 requirement that his acts "instead of". However, I think that argument is confusing, so I'm going to ignore it and just assume that it still counts. Ultimately, the end result is the same anyway.

st-321 ignores range restrictions.

Jendon changes the range restrictions

St-321 does not give a rats *** that jendon changed something that does not apply to his ability, target lock range restrictions mean nothing to the title.

For the record, the question here was whether you can use Jendon to alter the range of the free lock given by the title. (You can't.)

The other interactions are really quite straightforward, as the title ignores range restrictions when acquiring its lock, including those imposed upon it by Jendon.

9 minutes ago, Icelom said:

st-321 ignores range restrictions.

Jendon changes the range restrictions

St-321 does not give a rats *** that jendon changed something that does not apply to his ability, target lock range restrictions mean nothing to the title.

Yeah, that's probably the natural and correct interpretation. I like it better than the one I overengineer, even if RAW squad probably chew on it unsatisfied for a while.

3 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

For the record, the question here was whether you can use Jendon to alter the range of the free lock given by the title. (You can't.)

The other interactions are really quite straightforward, as the title ignores range restrictions when acquiring its lock, including those imposed upon it by Jendon.

Oh well, seemed so unnatural to question that I haven't give it a second thought. Obviously, Jendon only applies to picking the lock action's target, not to picking Shuttle's custom effect's target. Case closed, g'night!

Edited by ryfterek
On 10/14/2018 at 8:42 AM, thespaceinvader said:

Yah, thought not, just needed a second opinion. Kind of a shame, because it makes the krennic/tarkin/jendon thing even less useful.

Tarkin/Jendon are already kind of not a combo... Tarkin is done in the system phase, Jendon in the activation phase, so when you activate Tarkin you can't activate Jendon, so everyone is limited to range 0-3 anyway... Tarkin is not that great, yes you can use Jendon on the first turn, get your Lock, then when everyone is inside range 3 you activate Tarkin, then everyone move and you are not in Ordnance range or in arc.

In fact, if the goal is alpha strike, Jendon alone is good enough

Card_Pilot_143.png

Card_Upgrade_124.png

It's a bit of a confusing bundle of rules all in. As far as I can see Jendon alters the range restriction on Acquiring a Target Lock. So you perform the co-ord, choose an enemy within 0-3 of that ship and Acquire a lock on it ignoring the range. The only reason I go for that is that Jendon says 'instead', so he seems to be explicitly changing the range restriction, which you then ignore.

Edited by AramoroA

I think you're right. The text "While friendly ships acquire locks this round, they must acquire locks beyond range 3 instead of at range 0-3." is setting alternate range restrictions which the title then ignores.