I've been going over the new uber-psychic powers and other issues brought up by Ascension and it struck me that a lot of the potential imbalance comes from the way unnatural characteristics operate.

The existing stat of a player buying an unnatural characteristic does not influence the cost he or she pays but has a profound effect on the end product. This is not a situation unique to Ascension and came to the fore recently in a Rogue Trader game when the horribly mutated hulking arch militant with Strength 75 got best quality muscle grafts to give him unnatural strength (x2). He now basically one-shots anything with his chainaxe (crushing blow plus arch-militant melee mastery gives him d10+22 pen 2 tearing and when he eventually gets around to picking up a power fist he will be putting out 2d10+32 pen 9 three times per round).

Now this is an extreme example but my suggested fix for unnatural stats is that each level of unnatural increases the associated bonus by 3 rather than doubling the existing bonus. This reflects the increase that an average joe would get from the (x2) and keeps the increased bonuses from breaking the system when a PC has a massive stat.

Any thoughts or suggestions on this?

My take is and will remain to never allow Unnatural Characteristics for human PCs and to disregard any rule that grants them.

That is my take as well, Unnatural Characteristics just seem to make things so much worse. I will never use them in my games regardless of what supplements may say.

rolls_badly said:

You do know that the Arch-Militant mastery covers a specified aspect of one of the weapons types (such as Bolt or Las with ranged weapons, and Chain or Power with melee weapons), and not a whole type of weapons (such as Melee, Basic, etc), right? So if his speciality is in Chain weapons, he won't be getting his damage bonus applied to a power fist.

MILLANDSON said:

Going by the example Arch-Militant in Forsaken Bounty I believe that it applies as the rolls_badly interprets it. She gets the bonuses to all Basic Weapons she wields, whether they be boltgun, long-las or plasma gun.

Snidesworth said:

Except that it specifically states "Bolt", not "Basic". Why would it state that if they didn't mean it?

For a moment I thought they'd changed it and that my copy of Forsaken Bounty was out of date. I checked the one on the Rogue Trader support page and it reads "Lorayne possesses the Weapon Master special ability. With any Basic-class weapon (such as her Locke-pattern Boltgun) she gains a +10% bonus to hit, +2 to Damage(already added in) and +2 initiative."

The only mention of "bolt" in there is for the weapon she's armed with which, as a Basic weapon, receives the bonus.

I don't find unnatural to be an issue(with the exception of the psyker), especially not for the bonus it grants to things like melee damage. I mean, sure you may get 2d10 plus some crazy amount each turn with unnatural strength, that being said, our storm troopers can both beat that damage with a gun(Autocannon anyone?) and can do so at a much more extreme range. For most of them you're not even using them as a bonus, but rather for that plus 10 they give on all rolls related to skills from that.

Personally, I think it's just too simplistic a mechanism and therein lies the problem.

It's too big a single jump. Staggering Unnatural into being a +X to the bonus (or +X DoS) with X being the Unnatural quantifier. Why? Well, simply put, even a geometric progression rapidly escalates. An arithmetic progression, as I suggest, is simply 'more controllable' than as it stands now.

So neuter the 'skill' on its own (i.e. it's quite a weak talent singly, like 'Sound Constitution'), but permit it to be taken more'n a few times. Tailor it, basically.

Excepting for simplicity and, I suspect, that the developers didn't imagine it to become as 'widely available' as it is now, the mechanism itself is a bit ill-thought out originally. I just doubt it was supposed to 'proliferate'. But I could be wrong.

For my part, if I cared deeply enough to create my own 'house rules patch' for the system (will require a few more games first, I think), I'd do the above at the of a hat. I call it like I sees it.

I'm thoroughly unimpressed. Like Bombernoy said, it's the Heavy Weapons, particularly the Autocannon (and Assault Cannon) you should fear. Case in point, the Arch Militant in one of the games I play in:

Twin-Linked Best Quality Autocannon, with Suspensors, Targeter, Motion Predictor, BS 73, Weapon Mastery, Mighty Shot

4d10+5 (Base) + 4 Damage (Mighty Shot/Mastery) * 1.3439 (Probability of RF with 4 dice) = 41.66 Average Damage per hit. 4 Pen

His effective BS?

73 (Base) + 10 (Targeter) + 10 (Motion Predictor) + 10 (Mastery) + 10 (Short Range, almost all of the time) + 20 (Twin Linked) + 20 (Full Auto) = 153

His Autocannon is Best Quality so it can never Jam, and he will always get tons of degrees of success. Average roll is 50, so let's look at how this works out:

153 - 50 = 103

103 / 10 = 10.3 (10)

Add that to the hit for a basic success, and the additional hit due Twin-Linked = 12 hits. Sadly we only get 10. This is possible because the Twin-Linked Quality discharges twice as much ammo (but we can also make the assumption that this doesn't count towards the maximum possible hits if you like).

so 10 * 41.66 = 416.6, and we ignore up to 4 AP from each hit.

If we assume that Twin-Linked doesn't allow us to hit up to 10 times, counting only one bonus hit:

6 * 41.66 = 249.66

Not Twin-Linked? We still hit with all 5 shots:

208.3

Suddenly the Power Fist ain't looking so powerful.

Note that with a BS this high, he could do EVEN BETTER with a Best Quality Assault Cannon (though his ability to penetrate armour/high toughness would be lessened).

I, as a GM, don't really have a problem with unnatural characteristics. Do they create EXTREMELY powerful characters with the potential to wreak massive amounts of havoc? Sure. That's what there designed to do, and that's why getting them isn't always easy and frequently comes with a price. Is it plausible for normal human PC's to achieve this level of power? (And this is where, I suspect, I differ from many people.) Sure. They're unnatural, not inhuman, and in every instance I can find of an opportunity to get an unnatural characteristic, they are represented either by intense training and augmentation to push the bounds of their abilities beyond normal limits, or by some technology or force that reconfigures the recipients body or mind.

So, yes, its extremely powerful, perhaps even unbalanced. But, for reasons that have been explored in many other threads, that is not necessarily a reason to bar something from a game. Furthermore, I have yet to see a ridiculous combat monster that cannot be taken down a peg or two relatively easily. In the above examples, Conan could be taken down by a few guys with webbers and flamers, by virtue of his likely abysmal agility, and Rambo could be dealt with four or five decently equipped guyswho can spread out, since he has to spend at least half his time in combat reloading.

The question for me was more a matter of wether or not it represents a level of ability that PC's could actually reach, and I think it does.

Sane Man said:

The same with me. I can understand why aliens, such as Orks and Eldar can get it, I don't see why humans should (cybernetics and mutations aside).

"Rambo could be dealt with four or five decently equipped guyswho can spread out, since he has to spend at least half his time in combat reloading."

Ammo backpacks. Also Assault Cannons.

I find it amusing that on the same forum where people are constantly begging for more Tyranid/Necron stats that people are getting so bent out of shape about ASCENTION level games having some player access to unnatural attributes. Eldar from the most elite to the most ghetto already have unnatural agility and my group kicked the hell out of 25 of them in a single fight, and that was a few ranks ago... If you as a GM are wringing your hands with glee at the prospect of inflicting 3 lictors, 7 tyranid warriors and a pair of carnifex on your unsuspecting players while they are at the Governor's social dance then maybe your players should be allowed to dip their food in the awesome-sauce. It has already been announced that a starting Deathwatch character is going to be roughly equal in power level to a rank 9 DH character, so we are talking about characters who should be awesome enough to stand on roughly equal footing to a moderately talented Space Marine.

My principle is that "normal" humans should not get Unnatural Traits, barring some very specific exceptions. Mutations and cybernetics mainly. With mutations you get social pressure for being a "mutie" ( if the mutations is obvious ). Cybernetics require money and connections to get.

With Ascension things get complicated. Certain classes clearly should get acces to them ( OA Assassins ) but I have serious doubts about the rest. While I understand the principle of giving Unnat. WP to Inquisitors or Psykers I am not entirely comfortable with the implications. And the possible Unnat. Agility*4 for the Death Cult Assassins just defies words. No. Just no.

What purpose do unnatural traits serve?

ZillaPrime said:

Fundamentally, it comes down to two different camps disagreeing on a fundamental issue. In this case: should Dark Heresy characters, even so-called Ascension level characters, have unnatural characteristics?

Obviously, I'm in the "no" camp... for the simple reason that I don't believe Inquisitors and Throne Agents ought to be superheros. Heroic, yes. Impressive, yes. Amazingly skilled, yes. Superhuman, no. IMO, Unnatural Characteristics are unnecessary and only serve to detract from the character's essential humanity.

Part of the fun of Dark Heresy, for me, is that you have human beings going up against the horrors of the galaxy. Part of what separates the humans fro the horrors is that the horrors are tougher, meaner and more deadly than a human could ever be. It's a desperate battle against something unspeakable. That's the whole point. If you make the humans superhuman, for me that point is lost.

That's why I won't allow human PCs to have Unnatural Characteristics in my campaigns and that's why I have not plans to buy or use Ascension. I am personally fairly disappointed by that, because I wanted Ascension. I want my PCs to be Inquisitors and Throne Agents. Unfortunately, my vision of what Inquisitors and Throne Agents are is very different from FFGs vision. Your millage may vary.

LuciusT said:

It should not noted that not every Ascended career comes with a selection of Unnatural Characteristics available; only the Death Cult Assassin (Unnatural Agility x2, x3, x4), Magos (who requires an implant-related paragon talent as prerequisites for Unnatural Strength x2 and Unnatural Toughness x2, so it makes sense from that perspective, and also has access to Unnatural Intelligence x2), Primaris Psyker (Unnatural Willpower x2 and x3), Sage, (Unnatural Intelligence x2, x3 and x4; they're also the main option for Adepts, some of whom get access to Unnatural Intelligence x2 at rank 8), Vindicare Assassin (Unnatural Strength x2, Unnatural Agility x2, Unnatural Toughness x2; then again, their depiction in every edition of the wargame they've appeared in supports them being beyond human in their abilities) and Inquisitor (Unnatural Willpower x2 and x3).

Additionally, they're hardly compulsory upgrades or automatic improvements - they have to be bought with xp (often as much as 2,000 xp) like any other advance, and it's well within a GM's power to demand justification for an advance or disallow them entirely. They make up a distinct minority of the advances available, and I think that a lot of attention is being given to a small selection of powerful-yet expensive advances at the expense of the rest of the material there.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Bombernoy said:

But there are already talents that represnt the hardened will of Throne Agents and Inquisitors. And we already have characteristic advances, up to +30. I overall have no major issue against Unnatural Characteristics, but some of these are cheaper then buying your last two +5 increments to the same stat. As has been mentioned already, with special "mystical" training, cybernetics, drug therapy, mutation there are plenty of fluff based examples to support gaining them.

It just seems some means of gaining a unnatural trait is more detailed (Tech Priest, Cortex Implant) but some (Im looking at you Death Cult Assassin) they just seem to be there with no real explanation.

Bombernoy said:

Here we come to a point of underlying philosophy... if an Inquisitor must be superhuman, then a regular human can never hope to achieve what they can achieve. If being superhuman is required to resist the evil and horror of the galaxy, then that means that a regular human cannot resist it. If that's true then the Imperium is right and brutality, cruelty and sadism are humanity's only hope against the darkness.

This I deny.

You're quite right, that this is the view the GW studio presents, when they discuss it at all... that in the grim darkness of the far future, fascism is the only alternative to extinction. This, I deny. I'm a radical (Recongregator) that way...

Luddite said:

Argument fuel. Other then that, not much (except in optimized builds).

Really, when you look at the Unnatural Characteristics, Unnatural Intelligence changes very little (they can fact find by the RAW a bit faster and people who are lightly wounded get healed up by such a doctor even more fully then before) -that's really a sub-par superhuman. Unnatural Willpower gives a little more bang for its buck but not a whole lot more. You'd be able to withstand incredible amounts of torture and interrogation, you won't flip your lid at crazy terrible things as often (there's a talent that dose better though), and you'd resist a lot of psychic hoodoo -all in all, this dose not add up to someone who some kind of crazy superman or something someone without a good amount of determination and the right circumstances can't achieve. It only really becomes something big if the individual is psychic, in which case superhuman is already part of the package. Unnatural Agility, even at x4, just means you go fist in combat, back-flips are easier, they have a much easier time getting out of the way of flames, grenades, and auto-fire, and are, on the whole, a bit harder to hit -again, not all that earthshaking. Strength and Toughness are the two big ones that have a profound "wow" factor that can make a character seem supper human, but the only two getting either of those are altered to be more then human anyway. Barring Optimum Builds and all that noise, they're really not that massive of a change to a character or their performance, just a tweak in an area or two. Don't get too caught up on the traits name.

Still, if some major explaining needs to be done as to why the character is marginally better in a very narrow area of stuff, based on the Magos, there's a precedent set for Unnatural Characteristics being representative of cybernetic upgrades. There's even a precedent for implants being represented by talents but not costing any money by the RAW to get (such as electrograft use, binary chatter, orthoproxy, and right of pure thought) so who's to say that you can't treat the Unnatural Characteristics for any career in the same way? Perhaps the Sage has had most of his left brain replaced by a cogitator, perhaps the Inquisitor has been meditating on some new mnemonic chants in some 40k-Tibetan monastery to control his thoughts better or had an implant much like an orthoproxy shoved in is skull. The psyker might have undergone extensive nero-remapping to by-pass weaker portions of his brain and allow him to interface with tat DaoT helmet that ramps his powers up to astronomical levels and the Death Cultist might have had crystalline nero-wiring implanted and grown through her body to give her much faster reflexes. Just because there's a trait for purchase with little description about who it comes to be doesn't mean the player or GM can't come up with a compelling reason for the change.

Edit: when it comes to Ascension making the characters "superhuman", I'm all for it. The universe of 40k and most all of the fiction concerning it is incredibly "pulpy". Boosting the characters up like this in those niche-ways only makes them pulpier, though, even with an Inquisitor's Unnatural Willpower, they don't even come close to the big daddy of all pulp heroes, Doc Savage, and what such pulp heroes were capable of. All in all, Unnatural Characteristics seems to fit the genre of 40k in general.

Graver said:

Depends on whether or not you take into account the rules as they appear in The Inquisitor's Handbook; 1 step easier on all appropriate skill tests per level of Unnatural Characteristic is not to be sniffed at. Unnatural Intelligence (x3) on a character with Scholastic Lore Mastery and an Intelligence of 65 will pass a Challenging Scholastic Lore (any) test on a 105 or less, and even with the worst penalties possible, there's still a 45% chance of success...

Similarly, Unnatural Agility is useful for more than going first; stealth-based skills are always opposed tests, so the benefits of Unnatural Agility are significant indeed. With 60 agility, Unnatural Agility (x4) and Stealth Mastery, a Death Cultist can pass a challenging Concealment, Shadowing or Silent Move test on 110 or less, and will gain 4 bonus degrees of success on the opposed test. A normal guardsman NPC trained in Awareness with an Auspex (51% chance of success) is physically incapable of spotting that assassin (the worst roll the Death Cultist can get is 100, which is still 1 degree of succes, +4 for being Unnaturally Agile... the best the guardsman-with-auspex can manage is a 01, which is 5 degrees of success, equalling the Death Cultist; the tiebreaker is beaten by the higher bonus - in this case, the Assassin's 24 vs the guardsman's 3).

It all adds up...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Oh, I forgot it was per level. I tend not to look in the iH very oftine for things -I don't much care for that one.

I guess when talking raw, that dose change things a bit.

Well thats sounds perfectly right to me. A mook guardsman shouldn't be a challenge to a Throne Agent. If you want a mook guardsman to be a challenge, roll up a rank 1 DH character and play with that. The Throne agent should have comparable opponents (unless you want them to waltz into the place unimpeeded. So make up some thing that has an awareness roll of 90-110. Ascension is superheroics, if you're ok with that all you need to do is adjust what the PC's face.