17 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I'm undefeated with Delta/Delta/OGP+Palp. Mostly fairly casual games, a small kit tourney, but still.

You like that better than Delta/Delta/SCP+Vader?[or OGP+Vader] I find Palpatine very underwhelming in 2.0

49 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

You like that better than Delta/Delta/SCP+Vader?[or OGP+Vader] I find Palpatine very underwhelming in 2.0

Omicron Group Pilot and Vader won't fit, I don't think, since Vader is a point more than Palp.

Scarif Base Pilot has potential, but I don't think I could give up the White Coordinate actions, and a stressed Reaper is just kinda pathetic in my mind. The advantage it has over a Lambda is Ailerons, so being stressed and on Blue moves without Ailerons seems awkward.

So I don't want to give up the Omicron Group Pilot, but I think I'm retiring Palpatine for a while. I don't know that Palpatine is bad, but I want to experiment with other options. This was literally my first 2e list, so I wanted something kind of straight forward. I feel like Defenders throw a lot of dice, and Palp's force can come in handy. On top of that, I feel like it frees me up to Boost and Barrel Roll and Lock a bunch more, since I'll have a "semi-Focus" waiting that I can use. But there's a lot of dice variance. There will be days where it matters, and days where it doesn't.

Anyhow, I'm keen to try something like OGP with Ciena Ree. FCS for Defender, or OGP options of Minister Maketh Tua, Death Troopers, and/or ST-321 seem like other reasonable options to consider. Seventh Sister could be interesting. Someone gets to close with a stress and they're on a rock, or I jam away their focus token to protect my ship.

But maybe I've just talked myself back into keeping Palp here. Ciena Ree looks like WORLDS of fun. Certainly, she can put ships into odd places. However, everything is Init 1. When I'm probably moving before the opponent is, having a strange way to use the 3-straight with a Coordinated Bank Boost and Twist is cool, but I can just dial in a 3-bank and not worry about it. Meanwhile, Palp might enable a riskier style. Defenders are potent among ace-like ships in that they've got a massive stack of four shields. They can afford to mess up a little, maybe take a hit here and there, since they won't fold like Soontir can. I feel like I've been repositioning my Defenders in 2e more than I did in 1e, and I feel like that's helped me.

It's also entirely possible that this list has a ceiling. I've been loving it at the FLGS and Small-Kit level. Higher than that? I dunno.

28 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Omicron Group Pilot and Vader won't fit, I don't think, since Vader is a point more than Palp.

Scarif Base Pilot has potential, but I don't think I could give up the White Coordinate actions, and a stressed Reaper is just kinda pathetic in my mind. The advantage it has over a Lambda is Ailerons, so being stressed and on Blue moves without Ailerons seems awkward.

So I don't want to give up the Omicron Group Pilot, but I think I'm retiring Palpatine for a while. I don't know that Palpatine is bad, but I want to experiment with other options. This was literally my first 2e list, so I wanted something kind of straight forward. I feel like Defenders throw a lot of dice, and Palp's force can come in handy. On top of that, I feel like it frees me up to Boost and Barrel Roll and Lock a bunch more, since I'll have a "semi-Focus" waiting that I can use. But there's a lot of dice variance. There will be days where it matters, and days where it doesn't.

Anyhow, I'm keen to try something like OGP with Ciena Ree. FCS for Defender, or OGP options of Minister Maketh Tua, Death Troopers, and/or ST-321 seem like other reasonable options to consider. Seventh Sister could be interesting. Someone gets to close with a stress and they're on a rock, or I jam away their focus token to protect my ship.

But maybe I've just talked myself back into keeping Palp here. Ciena Ree looks like WORLDS of fun. Certainly, she can put ships into odd places. However, everything is Init 1. When I'm probably moving before the opponent is, having a strange way to use the 3-straight with a Coordinated Bank Boost and Twist is cool, but I can just dial in a 3-bank and not worry about it. Meanwhile, Palp might enable a riskier style. Defenders are potent among ace-like ships in that they've got a massive stack of four shields. They can afford to mess up a little, maybe take a hit here and there, since they won't fold like Soontir can. I feel like I've been repositioning my Defenders in 2e more than I did in 1e, and I feel like that's helped me.

It's also entirely possible that this list has a ceiling. I've been loving it at the FLGS and Small-Kit level. Higher than that? I dunno.

OCP and Vader is 1 point too much you are correct. I agree with the reasoning of wanting to keep him with the coordinate. SCP + Vader allows a list to come in at 199.

The crew options for the Empire is good right now Ciena, Sloane, Vader, Palp etc, etc.. I just find Palpatine underwhelming with it be so specific in regards to his dice mod ability. Do you still run the 2 Defender list regularly? Do you think the Delta’s are correctly costed, do they need an increase/ decrease? I like Ryad and Rexler where there at 86/84 respectively and if feel a reduction would be nice personally for me but not the game. If Deltas go down I think we’d see a lot of 2 Delta + Whisper/Vader lists and that would be brutally glorious.

31 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

OCP and Vader is 1 point too much you are correct. I agree with the reasoning of wanting to keep him with the coordinate. SCP + Vader allows a list to come in at 199.

The crew options for the Empire is good right now Ciena, Sloane, Vader, Palp etc, etc.. I just find Palpatine underwhelming with it be so specific in regards to his dice mod ability. Do you still run the 2 Defender list regularly? Do you think the Delta’s are correctly costed, do they need an increase/ decrease? I like Ryad and Rexler where there at 86/84 respectively and if feel a reduction would be nice personally for me but not the game. If Deltas go down I think we’d see a lot of 2 Delta + Whisper/Vader lists and that would be brutally glorious.

I think Defenders are probably fairly priced. I have worries about Juke on Talented ones being a bit too potent, and there's something odd to me about Rexler Brath being cheaper than Ryad, but I'd say they're about fair. I kinda want any ship I love to be cheaper, but I don't think the need it. Cripes, Defenders would need to go down like 5-7 points to get a Whisper with Vader in there, and that seems like... Yikes.

I was running Delta/Delta/Palp last Saturday and went 3-0 in a very small kit (only 4 of us...). Palp felt... OK? I feel like there were more turns when he went unused than in my first few games with him, but that might be variance.

I get what you're saying about Palp. Eyes don't always show up when you need them. I think Palp just suits Deltas, though.

Sloane is going to be great when supporting a swarm of squishies. However, I think she just doesn't fit with Deltas. They don't die often enough, seem more likely to get out of range for the stress-based-rerolls. Ciena Ree looks amazing on paper, but I don't know how vital she'll be at all Init 1, where I can plot normal moves and won't need to rely on tricks, and Defender blue moves aren't great. They're a lot better than 1e with the 1-banks, but they aren't too hot when compared to a lot of other ships. If Vader would fit, that seems like it'd be worth trying, but it doesn't fit. If I was flying something other than two Deltas, I think there'd be a lot of merit to going with a crew who did more fancy stuff. But the high hit points, the evades from Full Throttle, the white K-Turn, I think it all just works best with Palp coordinating them at the same Initiative.

It's the kind of thing where I might change my opinion if I flew against different lists, perhaps more Boba-Guri, or more heavy Punisher attacks.

I guess all I can say is I've liked it so far.

8 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I think Defenders are probably fairly priced. I have worries about Juke on Talented ones being a bit too potent, and there's something odd to me about Rexler Brath being cheaper than Ryad, but I'd say they're about fair. I kinda want any ship I love to be cheaper, but I don't think the need it. Cripes, Defenders would need to go down like 5-7 points to get a Whisper with Vader in there, and that seems like... Yikes.

I get what you're saying about Palp. Eyes don't always show up when you need them. I think Palp just suits Deltas, though.

If I was flying something other than two Deltas, I think there'd be a lot of merit to going with a crew who did more fancy stuff. But the high hit points, the evades from Full Throttle, the white K-Turn, I think it all just works best with Palp coordinating them at the same Initiative.

It's the kind of thing where I might change my opinion if I flew against different lists, perhaps more Boba-Guri, or more heavy Punisher attacks.

I guess all I can say is I've liked it so far.

Do you think they’re a way to vary the points between generic and named Defender pilots that wouldn’t be two confusing, right now it’s tied to agility. Or they could just up all the named pilots up 2. So Ryad to 88, (I think Rexler should at about 88 as well) then Vessery can stay the same.

This may have the same effect of increasing Juke for them because it would make list makers make choices with the mod slot and if the want a cannon or not (although at a base 88 HLC and AD still fits)

Your explanation in regards to Palpatine with Deltas is convincing and very understandable. I may try it Thursday. I fly Defenders often, usually 1 per list at a minimum. Rexler + Vader is my favorite list right now.

6 hours ago, Cgriffith said:

Do you think they’re a way to vary the points between generic and named Defender pilots that wouldn’t be two confusing, right now it’s tied to agility. Or they could just up all the named pilots up 2. So Ryad to 88, (I think Rexler should at about 88 as well) then Vessery can stay the same.

This may have the same effect of increasing Juke for them because it would make list makers make choices with the mod slot and if the want a cannon or not (although at a base 88 HLC and AD still fits)

Your explanation in regards to Palpatine with Deltas is convincing and very understandable. I may try it Thursday. I fly Defenders often, usually 1 per list at a minimum. Rexler + Vader is my favorite list right now.

The more I think about it, I just don't think there's obvious price increases necessary for Defenders. It's not like we're reading reports of two ship Defender aces lists winning everything. They're clearly powerful, and I think an eye needs to be kept on them, but they can probably remain unchanged through a first round of price adjustments.

On 10/12/2018 at 2:29 PM, Tvboy said:

Here's an interesting question: Which upgrade slots need updating?

I think A-Wings deserve to get another talent slot across all 4 pilots.

while they are at it FFG can bring down the cost of Mods, that way the A-Wing doesn't hav an unfair advantage over the Interceptor

3 hours ago, Darth evil said:

while they are at it FFG can bring down the cost of Mods, that way the A-Wing doesn't hav an unfair advantage over the Interceptor

I don't understand why people keep making this comparison. In the game of X-Wing, the A-Wing has never, nor will it ever be a counterpart to the interceptor.

bring down the cost of mods in general so they actually get used on non-0/1 agi ships....

8pts for a shield upgrade....way too much...even 6pts is pushing it imo.

yeah. personally, i would like to see point brought down big time. Tired of 2-3 ship squads. want to see a 12 ship swarm and 3-5 ships on non swarm, but that's just me.

10 hours ago, Duskwalker said:

I don't understand why people keep making this comparison. In the game of X-Wing, the A-Wing has never, nor will it ever be a counterpart to the interceptor.

Then why does FFG repeatedly refer to it as an interceptor? -https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing/products/a-wing-expansion-pack/ , https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing-second-edition/products/rz-2-wing-expansion-pack/

36 minutes ago, cwh008 said:

12 ship swarm

Not going to happen outside of casual play. 8 is the hard cap for competitive play.

24 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

Then why does FFG repeatedly refer to it as an interceptor? -https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing/products/a-wing-expansion-pack/ , https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing-second-edition/products/rz-2-wing-expansion-pack/

It is an interceptor style ship but so is the M3A, and no one is comparing the M3A to a TIE/In

The RZ1 A-Wing being compared to the TIE/In is questionable, as while they have similar speed and maneuverability, and repositioning ability, that extra attack die is considerable in making the TIE/In more offensive.

Just now, CaptainIxidor said:

It is an interceptor style ship but so is the M3A, and no one is comparing the M3A to a TIE/In

The RZ1 A-Wing being compared to the TIE/In is questionable, as while they have similar speed and maneuverability, and repositioning ability, that extra attack die is considerable in making the TIE/In more offensive.

Hmm. Bare init 1 Interceptor 34pts... Init 1RZ-1 30 pts... Init 1 RZ-1 with Homing Missiles 34 Pts... Hmmm....

4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Hmm. Bare init 1 Interceptor 34pts... Init 1RZ-1 30 pts... Init 1 RZ-1 with Homing Missiles 34 Pts... Hmmm....

Locked target requirement is just as bad here as it is on the TIE/x1.

Just now, CaptainIxidor said:

Locked target requirement is just as bad here as it is on the TIE/x1.

which costs 7 pts more...

But the TIE/IN costs the same? I think that further underlines how over-costed the X1 is.

More focus missiles will make the A-Wing more competitive, I'd think. Prockets being bullseye hurt them a good bit.

1 hour ago, cwh008 said:

yeah. personally, i would like to see point brought down big time. Tired of 2-3 ship squads. want to see a 12 ship swarm and 3-5 ships on non swarm, but that's just me.

12 ships? Maybe if you're going for fat builds. Sans upgrades, I want a 200-ship swarm.

8 hours ago, cwh008 said:

yeah. personally, i would like to see point brought down big time. Tired of 2-3 ship squads. want to see a 12 ship swarm and 3-5 ships on non swarm, but that's just me.

Go play armada or epic and you can have your wish. X-Wing slows way down with that many ships on the table, and that makes it less fun.

14 hours ago, gadwag said:

Go play armada or epic and you can have your wish. X-Wing slows way down with that many ships on the table, and that makes it less fun.

i did. but doesnt seem to be in 2.0

Rebalance:

IMPERIALS:

Bombers 28pts -> 30pts (same as aggressor who has turret/gunner instead of device and torps)

Jonus 36pts -> 40pts (howlrunner of ordnance, but costs less than howlrunner?)

Sloane crew 10pts -> 16pts (soooooo goooooood)

Vader 14pts ->16pts

Grand Inquisitor 16pts -> 14pts (its really powerful, but not as good as Vader)

SCUM:

Drea Renthal 40pts -> 48pts (howlrunner that doesnt need to be range 1 of ships, has turret, and 8hp).

Han Gunner crew 4pts -> 8pts (probably worse costed upgrade in the game)

Marauder 3pts -> 5pts (should be same as Slave I title. Dont see why it should be less. Let people choose how to build a firespray, not make up their mind for them with cheap awesome titles)

Andrasta 6pts -> 5pts (again, make the titles the same cost. Decisions for what title to bring should come from the players, not the design team)

Lancers 3pt drop across the board. No reposition hurts the ship. Reluctant for a bigger drop because the ship can get powerful real quick.

Havoc Title 4pts -> 0pt (losing crew is a killer, as system slot is not the best anymore with nerf to Adv Sensors and FCS. Havoc title is basically a trajectory simulator tax for a ship that cant reload).

REBELS:

Kanan 90pts -> 80pts (ability doesnt work on himself, and force cant be spent on its 0 agility ships defense. So he is a 90pt behemoth support ship)

Corran 74pts -> 68pts (should not cost more than Vader I6 with force ability. If Corran had force ability, then 74pts would be perfect. All Ewings should take a 6pt dive in cost)

Luke 62pts -> 65pts (ability is too good and too strong)

Ten Numb and Braylen 50pts -> 47pts (dont know why the named bwings should cost more than named xwings like Garven or Jek)

UPGRADES:

Proton Torps 9pts -> 10pts (5pts in 1.0 costs, same as homing missile seems fair. Doesnt hurt single carriers too much, but spamming 4 of them costs you 4 extra points in the squad)

Trajectory Simulator 3pts -> 6pts (too good for 3pts. Players should have to make a decision to take this upgrade, not make it automatic with a cheap cost.)

Juke 4pts -> 6pts (3pts in 1st edition cost seems fair, and opens up reasons to take other talent slots instead of making the decision easy for the player)

21 minutes ago, wurms said:

Rebalance:

IMPERIALS:

Bombers 28pts -> 30pts (same as aggressor who has turret/gunner instead of device and torps)

Jonus 36pts -> 40pts (howlrunner of ordnance, but costs less than howlrunner?)

Sloane crew 10pts -> 16pts (soooooo goooooood)

Vader 14pts ->16pts

Grand Inquisitor 16pts -> 14pts (its really powerful, but not as good as Vader)

SCUM:

Drea Renthal 40pts -> 48pts (howlrunner that doesnt need to be range 1 of ships, has turret, and 8hp).

Han Gunner crew 4pts -> 8pts (probably worse costed upgrade in the game)

Marauder 3pts -> 5pts (should be same as Slave I title. Dont see why it should be less. Let people choose how to build a firespray, not make up their mind for them with cheap awesome titles)

Andrasta 6pts -> 5pts (again, make the titles the same cost. Decisions for what title to bring should come from the players, not the design team)

Lancers 3pt drop across the board. No reposition hurts the ship. Reluctant for a bigger drop because the ship can get powerful real quick.

Havoc Title 4pts -> 0pt (losing crew is a killer, as system slot is not the best anymore with nerf to Adv Sensors and FCS. Havoc title is basically a trajectory simulator tax for a ship that cant reload).

REBELS:

Kanan 90pts -> 80pts (ability doesnt work on himself, and force cant be spent on its 0 agility ships defense. So he is a 90pt behemoth support ship)

Corran 74pts -> 68pts (should not cost more than Vader I6 with force ability. If Corran had force ability, then 74pts would be perfect. All Ewings should take a 6pt dive in cost)

Luke 62pts -> 65pts (ability is too good and too strong)

Ten Numb and Braylen 50pts -> 47pts (dont know why the named bwings should cost more than named xwings like Garven or Jek)

UPGRADES:

Proton Torps 9pts -> 10pts (5pts in 1.0 costs, same as homing missile seems fair. Doesnt hurt single carriers too much, but spamming 4 of them costs you 4 extra points in the squad)

Trajectory Simulator 3pts -> 6pts (too good for 3pts. Players should have to make a decision to take this upgrade, not make it automatic with a cheap cost.)

Juke 4pts -> 6pts (3pts in 1st edition cost seems fair, and opens up reasons to take other talent slots instead of making the decision easy for the player)

I mostly agree with the direction of change but not the exact numbers, except Juke. Juke is fine where it's at. Trajectory Simulator, I'm not sure we should double it. 4 or 5 points might be enough. Drea is not good enough to drive up 8 points. I'm not sure I'd want to pay 5 points for Slave 1 or Andrasta, I'd probably still take Marauder. I think the other two should be a little cheaper than Marauder. I don't know that Gunner Han should be doubled. Making Marauder more expensive at the same time makes me think Han should only go up two points. We're not really seeing Han used anywhere else right now, and if he gets too over-costed, he won't see play at all. That's not a good goal to have in adjustments. Sloane, i'd bump to 13 before considering 16 but I'm not sure she's really that much of an issue. She's quite good but is she really impacting metagames?

2 hours ago, CaptainIxidor said:

I mostly agree with the direction of change but not the exact numbers, except Juke. Juke is fine where it's at. Trajectory Simulator, I'm not sure we should double it. 4 or 5 points might be enough. Drea is not good enough to drive up 8 points. I'm not sure I'd want to pay 5 points for Slave 1 or Andrasta, I'd probably still take Marauder. I think the other two should be a little cheaper than Marauder. I don't know that Gunner Han should be doubled. Making Marauder more expensive at the same time makes me think Han should only go up two points. We're not really seeing Han used anywhere else right now, and if he gets too over-costed, he won't see play at all. That's not a good goal to have in adjustments. Sloane, i'd bump to 13 before considering 16 but I'm not sure she's really that much of an issue. She's quite good but is she really impacting metagames?

Drea's ability is good enough to warrant the increase. I would be fine with a more cautious 44pts, since Drea has to take at least dorsel making him 48pts. But 40 is hogwash.

Any future scum ship with gunner slot might as well staple Han on there unless it gets an increase. Maybe double points is harsh, but at least 6pts, even with Dengar. Han at 4pts pretty much shuts down and kills all other gunner crew for non-turreted ships.

Sloane was in 5 of the top16 at crossroad classics. She is catching on quickly and I expect to see her everywhere soon. Its a nasty card.

All making those changes would do is make the next 4 factions over powered. With the new factions coming out between now and April they are better off waiting.