28 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Instead of pricing good stuff out of usability (because it is stupid) I much more prefer point reduction approach to promote stuff that is too weak.
Having said that I think E-Wing named pilots will see some kind of point cost reduction. Corran is just horribly overpriced.
I am after polish team national championship tournament and meta really is varied - almost everything flies. If any, points adjustments should be minimal.

So please, nerf brigade, instead of crying start playing, game is in great spot right now!

I’m sorry mister I’m better than you. But there are some things that need adjusting, just because some of the suggestions effect your super doper meta list you might like, and then need to adjust doesn’t mean it still won’t be good with the adjustment.

Eventually things will change, Alex has said so.

19 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Instead of pricing good stuff out of usability (because it is stupid) I much more prefer point reduction approach to promote stuff that is too weak.
Having said that I think E-Wing named pilots will see some kind of point cost reduction. Corran is just horribly overpriced.
I am after polish team national championship tournament and meta really is varied - almost everything flies. If any, points adjustments should be minimal.

So please, nerf brigade, instead of crying start playing, game is in great spot right now!

Buffing is good, but it has limitations. For one thing, there is only so far you can reduce a ship's cost before you allow an extra copy of that ship. A ship may be somewhat lackluster at 41 points, but be a bit too potent at 40, when you have five on the table.

More importantly, though, is that saying "nerf nothing" ignores even the possibility that a card or combo can be fundamentally flawed. Trying to power up other ships to counter it results in either those becoming too powerful (necessitating other power-creeps) or those becoming hard-counters. Both approaches were tried in 1.0, and were not, in my opinion, good options.

Instead, I think there should be an ideal average. Not everything will lie on it perfectly, but everything should be close. If something is far below average, buff it. If it's far above, nerf it. If it simply can't work with the system, fix it.

3 hours ago, YourHucklebrry said:

Supernatural Kylo is going to be trouble.

Whether they need to increase Supernatural Instinct's cost, build a (steep) tax into Kylo and any other Force-sensitive Silencer pilots, or both, I'm not sure. But as someone who loved him unequivocally in 1.0, seeing him coming into 2.0 essentially unscathed is a bit scary.

Not only unscathed, he's had some improvements in his repositioning ability. He can now double repo and get a token.

Sure ISYTDS isn't as strong. But never getting shot in 1e was pretty strong for him too. I only ever baited him to PS0 a threat that was a higher PS. Hardly ever used blinded because it was far from a guarantee when you wanted it.

FFG need to buff the Scum Conversion kit and include the Moldy Crow title. That exclusion is a real kick in the %#*$ for scum only players.

25 minutes ago, Roundy1161 said:

Not only unscathed, he's had some improvements in his repositioning ability. He can now double repo and get a token.

Sure ISYTDS isn't as strong. But never getting shot in 1e was pretty strong for him too. I only ever baited him to PS0 a threat that was a higher PS. Hardly ever used blinded because it was far from a guarantee when you wanted it.

I would still take the Advanced Optics, Vanguard title and (most importantly) Autothrusters from 1.0, but the fact that it's even close (and I agree that it is) is concerning.

1 minute ago, YourHucklebrry said:

I would still take the Advanced Optics, Vanguard title and (most importantly) Autothrusters from 1.0, but the fact that it's even close (and I agree that it is) is concerning.

I was just talking mostly naked, he certainly has lost a bit of his ability to take shots compared to 1.0. But for me his strength was always not getting shot.

Him against arc based ships, particularly lower ps than him, was a massacre

Boba already costs 80p naked... does he need really a points increase?

im interested in the process FFG will use to rebalance stuff and how they will ultimately decide what needs tweeking. my hunch is they will wait to see what starts to dominate competitions in terms of results although this singular approach will not catch the stuff that needs buffing.

It would be really interesting if the x-wing community (be it those here in these forums) or players attending tournaments got to decide or at least have input into any rebalancing.

Imagine if you could vote for two pilots from each faction... one who you want to get a positive buff, one who you think needs a nerf? FFG could post a list of pilots they have been looking at. Same for upgrades, let the players vote but give them a select list to choose from.

Some good suggestions here in this thread about what already seems OP. less discussion on what seems under powered. FFG will likely avoid wholesale or knee jerk reactions.

Jakku Gunrunner and Han Gunner are likely targets for scum to have a cost increase.

11 minutes ago, Vector Strike said:

Boba already costs 80p naked... does he need really a points increase?

no but marauder title probably needs to go up to maybe 6pts. Han gunner is getting some heat here but by upping the marauder title you effectivly solve his undercostedness on Boba Fett.

3 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

im interested in the process FFG will use to rebalance stuff and how they will ultimately decide what needs tweeking. my hunch is they will wait to see what starts to dominate competitions in terms of results although this singular approach will not catch the stuff that needs buffing.

It would be really interesting if the x-wing community (be it those here in these forums) or players attending tournaments got to decide or at least have input into any rebalancing.

Imagine if you could vote for two pilots from each faction... one who you want to get a positive buff, one who you think needs a nerf? FFG could post a list of pilots they have been looking at. Same for upgrades, let the players vote but give them a select list to choose from.

Some good suggestions here in this thread about what already seems OP. less discussion on what seems under powered. FFG will likely avoid wholesale or knee jerk reactions.

Jakku Gunrunner and Han Gunner are likely targets for scum to have a cost increase.

These are all good observations and suggestions especially if the zoned it down to 3-4 cards per faction and allowed a vote via the community for buff or nerf so to speak in regards to the cards chosen. Do it faction by faction and lay out the actual nerf/buff so to engage the community. Ala Corusant this past weekend with the social media vote.

I don’think FFG will actually tell us how the decide on the process of rebalancing but it seems there are a lot of cards everyone in this thread agree need to be looked at which they should be. The obvious ones definitely need analysis of cause and effect if not addressed.

Maruder (Title), Han (Gunner) , Juke, Supernatural Reflexes

The Bomber, Phantoms, Boba, Guri, Jonus and Luke

The Above all probably need to really examined. Then there’s the ships that need a solid buff. I mean most large ships are in a bad spot, and the E-Wing really needs some help. Then there’s crew like 5th brother.

59 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

These are all good observations and suggestions especially if the zoned it down to 3-4 cards per faction and allowed a vote via the community for buff or nerf so to speak in regards to the cards chosen. Do it faction by faction and lay out the actual nerf/buff so to engage the community. Ala Corusant this past weekend with the social media vote.

I don't think a community vote on what gets buffed/nerfed is a good idea at all. Why would they need to rely on a straw poll that is subject to emotional bias when they will have tournament data to rely on when looking at what is apparently too strong or too weak?

18 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

I don't think a community vote on what gets buffed/nerfed is a good idea at all. Why would they need to rely on a straw poll that is subject to emotional bias when they will have tournament data to rely on when looking at what is apparently too strong or too weak?

Understand it was a suggestion. I don't believe they'll do it either I do wonder if there is a algorithm associated with the official app (athough it sounds like many don't use it) but those at Coruscant all had lists viewable on the app that will assist in there decisions; I don't know how they're going to do it but it needs to be done. There are cards that need buffing, increases and ships in the same situation.

I could see it occuring January 1st or with the release of Wave 2.

Almost anything I'd like to see change price, I'd only like to see get a 1 or 2 point nudge. But I probably want to see more nudges than lots of folks.

TIE Advanced x1? Down 1 point. Phantoms with Talent slots and the unique Punishers? Up 2 points. 0-0-0 and BT-1? Up 1 point. Equalize all Firespray titles at 4 points with a few ups and downs. Lancers and Jumpmasters? Down 2. Scum YT-1300, Lando's Falcon title, and the Moldy Crow title? Up 2. Rebel force crew/gunners? Down 2. Barrage Rockets? Up 1. Concussion Missiles and Proton Rockets? Down 1.

The only new variable pricing should be for the regen and repair R2 and R5 droids (along with their unique counterparts), with their current cost matching the 2-agility ship, and following the same patterns as Hull and Shield upgrade. So they'd be a bit cheaper on an ARC or Y-Wing, and a bit pricier on an E-Wing.

Scum Han going up 4 points to 8 (same as Baze Malbus, who's also stress-for-focus-tokens) and Trick Shot going all the way up 3 points to 4 (extra dice shouldn't be so cheap!). Off the top of my head, I don't have immediately in mind anything else I think ought to move more than 2 points. Even E-Wings can get small price changes... start slow with a 2 point cut each price adjustment wave until they hit the sweet spot.

I don't think Trajectory Simulator needs a change. I'd rather see the base cost of Punishers change, and the cost of the Havoc title, since IG-88 Bomb Launching is probably fine. Genius should be 1 point (same as Ruthless, since Genius is kinda Ruthless for Bombs) out of principle--nothing but Configuration cards and maybe maybe the rare title should be 0 points.

31 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

Understand it was a suggestion. I don't believe they'll do it either I do wonder if there is a algorithm associated with the official app (athough it sounds like many don't use it) but those at Coruscant all had lists viewable on the app that will assist in there decisions; I don't know how they're going to do it but it needs to be done. There are cards that need buffing, increases and ships in the same situation.

I could see it occuring January 1st or with the release of Wave 2.

I'm not really in on polls per se, but community input seems good. In Warmachine/Hordes, the proposed changes to models go through CID - Community Integrated Development. Adjustments are previewed, and there's a bit of back and forth between the players and the devs. I'm not sure whether the process is as smooth as folks might wish, but I like the basic premise.

Ghosts and Decimaters feel over priced for what they do.

Some ships or upgrades that feel overpowered may not need a change, if the thing they are commonly paired with get a change e.g. if Bombers are increased to a level where you cannot fit in the current usual Jonus list and all its upgrades, do barage rockets still need an increase also, or vice versa, i.e. if barrage rockets are increased do the bombers need to go up in cost?

Things I think need a points drop so far are:

JM5K

Falcon

B-Wing

TIE Aggressor

Some of the X-Wing aces (generics seem fine - not sure if 5 in a list would be too good).

Need an increase:

Bombers

Barrage Rockets

Boba Fett

Jakku Gunrunner (not broken, but just seems too good value to not include)

10 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

no but marauder title probably needs to go up to maybe 6pts. Han gunner is getting some heat here but by upping the marauder title you effectivly solve his undercostedness on Boba Fett.

marauder should cost 6 not 3. This way Boba Fett with Han gunner will be 6 + 4 = 10. Costs Boba more but other scum ships that have crew slot dont get burned.

I think people might be overestimating the amount of balancing that will be done, especially early on in the game's life.

Right now we have very little information and almost nothing that is proven to be 'broken'. I'd be really surprised if they changed very much.

Here's an idea. Make some upgrades variable priced based on initiative.

Supernatural Reflexes isn't super hot on Generic Inquisitors. Advanced Sensors on an I2 B-wing isn't worth as much. Even target lock required munitions maybe... Maybe.

A lot of generics seem pretty weak overall still as putting upgrades on cheaper ships will always be worse ROI. Either the chassis needs to be dead simple efficient or have some neat tricks for generics to see play.

And for those asking for alternating player order, NO! All you initiative 6 with double digits bids are one way to help out generic swarms. I hope the meta pushes I5 lists to a 20 point bid!

Related to munitions: Redline, TIE Bombers, and Cool Jendon could use a look. And be careful with E-wings. They could become scary if prices drop too far without Proton Torps going up.

Why does everyone seem to be assuming that ALL points are open to readjusting? I think it’s just as likely that only 2nd Edition format ships will be targeted. All of the ships in extended might have to wait until they’re re-released before they’re properly balanced for competitive play.

Please note that this requires way fewer resources than, e.g., guessing how much to discount an E-Wing so that it starts to see play in a field where you’re already changing other point cost variables. They don’t have the resources to make their lives more difficult, so I assume they’ll act to make their lives easier.

Yeah I'm interested to see how they approach this. Let's say they want to nerf Redline. Do you increase his pilot point cost? Do you remove his system slot? Do you raise the cost of Tragedy Stimulator? In an RTS or MOBA you could try one small fix at a time and adjust in a matter of weeks as necessary. Since they only plan to have points adjustments every 6 months they are going to lose a lot of granularity. But heck, they appear to be competent game designers on the whole so, yeah, time for the waiting game.

1 hour ago, PaulRuddSays said:

Why does everyone seem to be assuming that ALL points are open to readjusting? I think it’s just as likely that only 2nd Edition format ships will be targeted. All of the ships in extended might have to wait until they’re re-released before they’re properly balanced for competitive play.

Please note that this requires way fewer resources than, e.g., guessing how much to discount an E-Wing so that it starts to see play in a field where you’re already changing other point cost variables. They don’t have the resources to make their lives more difficult, so I assume they’ll act to make their lives easier.

I expect/hope for a comprehensive rebalance of second edition ships and a token swipe at fixing the most egregious cards in extended.

imo redline isnt THAT bad. Punishers rarely die in 1 round anymore but that doesnt stop them from dying in 2 if you approach them right.

Jonus im not defending, he's pretty ridiculous. I'd expect a whopping 10pt minimum increase on him.

Barrage rockets are not the issue. Even if you have trip bombers w/o jonus theyre not really all that amazing, theyre just "solid" - not too strong, but not weak either. Jonus makes them stupid.

23 hours ago, SOTL said:

It's pointless to speculate.

Clever, ever.

There's a lot of people saying Luke needs to cost more but frankly I don't see it.

He is 14 points more than the next I5 X-wing (Thane). If you work that out as 7 points per force token and then compare that to Vader. The dark lord is only 20 points more than Maarek, so 1 point short for 3 force tokens and doesn't even account for the additional initiative?

So Vader is either under costed or Luke is over costed.

Alternatively compare it to the pricing of TIE advanced V1's. There is a 6 point difference between Baron's of empire and inquisitors. So could it be 6 points a force token.

Or 14 point jump between a Baron and a Seveth Sister, which includes an initiative bump.

Then a 10 point difference for the grand inquisitor from a seventh sister for a I5 increase. This seems like a steep cost difference here and is likely over priced.

So there has to be some value in the pilot ability itself which should be taken into account. Luke's ability creates an abundance of force if he is being attacked, but who really wants to have their ace in a position where they can be attacked? It's a safety net ability, defensive and somewhat pays for itself imo. Additionally the points value of this ability is also in comparison to Thanes pilot ability which is pretty powerful anyway. Also in contrast to the possible 4 actions turn Vader can make its not that op.

So if we're talking 6 points for each force token and 2 points for a pilot ability, I think Luke is about sitting about right.

Vader on the other hand would be 18 points for force tokens and 2 points for a very powerful pilot ability and no costing for initiative upgrade? He certainly needs looking at imo.

I think Supernatural Reflex's could have a price change but I think this one is seeing the most play because both powerful and the other force abilities are a little sub par. Especially when the force replaces talents. I'm hoping to see a few more force abilities come into play when the new factions land.