Hi all. I've been playing Armada since April of this year, approximately. Overall, this has been a good thing, because everything through Wave 7 had been released and the game is in a relatively well developed state.

However, for that entire time, it has also been the case that certain FFG Armada products have not been available. My brother and I were lucky enough to buy up the last Squadron I packs in Omaha (2 each of Rebels and Imps), and we also picked up just about the last Quasar and Hammerhead packs in town too. So we have been fortunate on that end, but one ship eludes us, and that is the Arquitens. It's simply not to be found anywhere, except on Ebay for highway robbery prices.

This is a minor frustration at worst, but it did get me thinking. Just off the top of my head, I can't recall another example where a toy or card/game company routinely has a 6-month or longer break in their supply chain availability for popular items, and not just Armada but other product lines too. It's ridiculous. Yet when that delay happens, most people just shrug and say, "Well that's FFG for you." But surely this is having a noticeable and negative impact on FFG's bottom line. After all, if there is demand for a product but no product is available, that that hurts not only FFG but the game and the customer as well.

What seems clear is that FFG does not have full control over their own production needs. So why not start with something low key, like a card production facility in North America? Heck, if a wholly-owned facility is out of the question I bet that there are publishers right here who would love a shot at FFG's business. Yeah yeah, I hear you saying already, but Cav, MOAR PRICES! And admittedly I don't know how that would look. But I do know that FFG could claim a win simply by bringing business home.

Yes and No.

If it were cheap enough, they WOULD have done it already. They have limited card production in house as it is (they do all alt arts themselves, that’s why they have a different texture) .

clearly even with delays - which doesn’t always equate lost sales, only delayed ones, to many a business, they may still find it cheaper in China.

Specifically as they also invested in improving a factory there for Destiny.

But international trade is also a huge headline right now. That’s why the US stock markets had a triple digit downturn today, and the Canadian one had its worst day in 3 years...

Ive been playing for about a year and yet to even see a hammerhead, Quasar or Arquitens in store or on table and very little stock is ever in store.

1 hour ago, XR8rGREAT said:

Ive been playing for about a year and yet to even see a hammerhead, Quasar or Arquitens in store or on table and very little stock is ever in store.

Youre also dealing with Southern Hemisphere distribution, which is another concern entirely.

Stock levels in the U.K. for fighters, Arquitens etc are pretty much exhausted as far as I can tell. I got most of the stuff I wanted towards the end of last year, then it dried up after that.

Which hoes to show just how long things have been out of stock.

So far production went to the places with low salaries, but as the industry moves to 4.0 and high automation (there are already factories nearly without workers) production will eventually come back, because the infrastructure in the developed countries is usually better. If that will apply to Armada I can't say. Anyway, getting some expansions in Germany is also quite difficult...

Hearing everyone talk about wanting Arquitens makes me glad that I got 3, they are good ships.

I'm no expert on economics but the manufacturing industry will return if Chinese wages continue to rise right? If Chinese wages reach the level of American and Canadian wages then FFG would be paying (high?) shippping costs for nothing.

If Chinese Wages ($2-3/hr equiv), ever reach Parity with Canadian Wages ($15/hr CAD is now Minimum Wage here in Alberta), then if they shift anywhere, it'll probably be to Mexico, which are currently at $4-5/hr. Which was part of the issue in regards to NAFTA/USMCA and the Automobile Parts production framework...

Chase the Cheap labour.

Because basically, at least when it comes to Armada, the Painting is considered Labour intensive... The Printing, Production and Assembly of the Product can be almost entirely automated as is given enough incentive. But the Painting is still done by Hand Tooling, and is the single largest labour component of Production (as FFG has stated in their Inflight Reports in the past).

I'm sure half the reason Legion is able to be pumped out quicker is the fact it skips that step entirely.

53 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

If Chinese Wages ($2-3/hr equiv), ever reach Parity with Canadian Wages ($15/hr CAD is now Minimum Wage here in Alberta), then if they shift anywhere, it'll probably be to Mexico, which are currently at $4-5/hr. Which was part of the issue in regards to NAFTA/USMCA and the Automobile Parts production framework...

Chase the Cheap labour.

Because basically, at least when it comes to Armada, the Painting is considered Labour intensive... The Printing, Production and Assembly of the Product can be almost entirely automated as is given enough incentive. But the Painting is still done by Hand Tooling, and is the single largest labour component of Production (as FFG has stated in their Inflight Reports in the past).

I'm sure half the reason Legion is able to be pumped out quicker is the fact it skips that step entirely.

I'd be fine with unpainted ship kits.

8 hours ago, Cavgunner said:

Just off the top of my head, I can't recall another example where a toy or card/game company routinely has a 6-month or longer break in their supply chain availability for popular items, and not just Armada but other product lines too.

I think I'm missing this point.

I mean, if you look at a card game like Magic, they make a huge run of cards for a new set, but it's not like WotC is continually reprinting those sets, as they then shift gears to printing the next set of cards. They never go back and reprint or keep old sets perpetually in stock. If you walk into a game store and say "Hey, can you order me a case of Alpha, Ice Age, 5th Edition, and Shards of Alara?" they'll look at you like you're crazy. Magic is able to do this because they have rotating set legality, where only the most recent sets are legal in the common tournament scene. And some cards eventually often get reprints in other products, but many don't, and for that it's secondary market only.

For games like Armada and X-Wing, FFG has to keep every product reprinting because they all need to be available, and the larger the product lines get, the harder it is to keep everything else in stock. Even miniature games by GW are constantly releasing new editions and new codexes, such that old stuff gives way to new stuff and they don't have to keep every unit type ever offered in stock.


So, for big lines like Magic and GW, the expectation is that releases are, ultimately, going to be "limited time" releases because eventually new stuff will cycle it out. So you have an indefinitely long time where particular cards or model-types may no longer be officially available. Which one might argue is worse than FFG, where things generally come back into stock after a few months or a year.

Also, yes it's time to produce these games in North America. I hope everyone is now willing to pay about $50-75 for a CR90 expansion pack. We are, right? Right? Hello? Guys...? Anyone......?


It's not just that the workers are paid about 1/5 to 1/6 hourly what they are in the US, but in the US they'd also need to receive benefits that would cost a fortune (thanks to the US being an odd-duck out country and not having universal healthcare (while also having the most expensive and least cost-efficient health care in the world, thanks to privatization) which means employers need to pick up the government's slack and pay for the healthcare of their employees). Then, also bear in mind that Chinese production facilities are much cheaper to operate because they tend to skimp on health and safety regulations for their workers relative to other developed areas of the World, and running a less safe workplace is cheaper than running a safe one. Etc etc etc

8 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

But international trade is also a huge headline right now. That’s why the US stock markets had a triple digit downturn today, and the Canadian one had its worst day in 3 years...

1

US Markets were down because of the Bond markets and fear of rising inflation. We won't see the effect on the market till 4th quarter as companies then start to report how its changed their margins and bottom line. Getting anything out of Asia right now is crazy. From what I have heard from my companies procurement folks is that if it's not on the water now, you have to basically pay a fee(bribe) to get to the head of the line to get it on the water before the deadline of the tariff starting.

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I think I'm missing this point.

I mean, if you look at a card game like Magic, they make a huge run of cards for a new set, but it's not like WotC is continually reprinting those sets, as they then shift gears to printing the next set of cards. They never go back and reprint or keep old sets perpetually in stock. If you walk into a game store and say "Hey, can you order me a case of Alpha, Ice Age, 5th Edition, and Shards of Alara?" they'll look at you like you're crazy. Magic is able to do this because they have rotating set legality, where only the most recent sets are legal in the common tournament scene. And some cards eventually often get reprints in other products, but many don't, and for that it's secondary market only.

For games like Armada and X-Wing, FFG has to keep every product reprinting because they all need to be available, and the larger the product lines get, the harder it is to keep everything else in stock. Even miniature games by GW are constantly releasing new editions and new codexes, such that old stuff gives way to new stuff and they don't have to keep every unit type ever offered in stock.


So, for big lines like Magic and GW, the expectation is that releases are, ultimately, going to be "limited time" releases because eventually new stuff will cycle it out. So you have an indefinitely long time where particular cards or model-types may no longer be officially available. Which one might argue is worse than FFG, where things generally come back into stock after a few months or a year.

I think you make a good point, but doesnt that bring the idea of "Print on demand" batch ? Where if X or more people order product A this month, it gets produced and ship to them directly. It would mean they have to deal with customer support a bit more but it would cut out retailers fee, so...

I think painting is automated, heck, back in the 80's, miniature cars were already chain painted (I know, I visited the NOREV-MAJORETTE factory we had in the city, what a trip to Wonderland for 12-year-old-kid it was!)

it's cheap, error-free and consistent. much more than hand painting....

forget about getting anything done in the US, too pricey, too much security laws; if things get really bad between the US and China, the factory will go to Vietnam, Malaya, or even to any central Africa state, were trained labor is cheap and will be more and more common in the 30 years that come.

You can't beat a 10-12 hours work-shift paid less than 5 US$ a day, and transport is almost free.

I do not think the "out of production" case in FFG is due to lack of workmanship, to me it's a perfectly assumed business model. FFG does not want to get new production lines going, as it is not sure that it will be worth it. a new production unit will cost several hundred of $ (even in a low-cost country), and has to be reimbursed in the first years to get profit Will FFG have it from Armada? not sure.....

1 hour ago, gounour said:

I think painting is automated,

It is not. The painting for miniatures like this produced in China are usually done by hand with the assistance of essentially 'stencils' that snap over the miniature to show where to paint.

All I know is it’s easier (and cheaper) to get most illegal drugs in my city than most of the Armada expansions at the moment - and I’m in the UK.

The only thing worse at the minute is trying to get Memoir 44 stuff...that is literally impossible.

I've been saying for a while the lack of reprints and new content is going to sink the game over time. I think it's a calculated ploy by management and they are expecting the Armada players to spend their money on Legion and X-Wing 2.0 while they wait for new (or old) content.

If I were them I'd expand production. Hard to make money if you don't have product on shelves.

3 hours ago, ripper998 said:

US Markets were down because of the Bond markets and fear of rising inflation. We won't see the effect on the market till 4th quarter as companies then start to report how its changed their margins and bottom line. Getting anything out of Asia right now is crazy. From what I have heard from my companies procurement folks is that if it's not on the water now, you have to basically pay a fee(bribe) to get to the head of the line to get it on the water before the deadline of the tariff starting.

I was quoting what I was literally hearing from the “experts” on the Radio as I was typing ?

5 hours ago, Nebukadnezzar said:

So far production went to the places with low salaries, but as the industry moves to 4.0 and high automation (there are already factories nearly without workers) production will eventually come back, because the infrastructure in the developed countries is usually better. If that will apply to Armada I can't say. Anyway, getting some expansions in Germany is also quite difficult...

Hahaha. Rent is still cheaper elsewhere.

The key is transportation getting more expensive. However, its also key that you are in Germany where automation is advanced, that has almost no relevance to the US though..

1 hour ago, Astrodar said:

It is not. The painting for miniatures like this produced in China are usually done by hand with the assistance of essentially 'stencils' that snap over the miniature to show where to paint.

Well, you're both kind of right. It is "automated" in the sense that the paint is certainly not applied by human-hand-held brushes or anything like that. But it does still require lots of hands as you have to have humans moving, loading, and unloading the miniatures into various stages of the "painting" process (which is mostly done by sprays and such).

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

I was quoting what I was literally hearing from the “experts” on the Radio as I was typing ?

In this day and age, everyone is expert. LOL

It's awful here in Canada. We don't have the population, the population density or the numbers interested to ever have a large quantity of armada products.

14 minutes ago, BlueSquadronPilot said:

It's awful here in Canada. We don't have the population, the population density or the numbers interested to ever have a large quantity of armada products.

Your half, maybe.

Our half has the Sentry Box.

Largest General gaming store in North America, if not the World.

Its buying power is impressive, and it rarely minds getting stock, even if it sits a while, as they own the building (and thus don’t pay premium rents).

We are lucky. When Asmodee Canada isn’t generally screwing up.

58 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Your half, maybe.

Our half has the Sentry Box.

Largest General gaming store in North America, if not the World.

Its buying power is impressive, and it rarely minds getting stock, even if it sits a while, as they own the building (and thus don’t pay premium rents).

We are lucky. When Asmodee Canada isn’t generally screwing up.

Yeah haven't even heard of the Sentry box. Over here in Ontario between the several hour drives between large cities you're not even guaranteed to find what you want lol I just recently moved from one major city to another and the lack of product and players is kind of alarming

11 minutes ago, BlueSquadronPilot said:

Yeah haven't even heard of the Sentry box. Over here in Ontario between the several hour drives between large cities you're not even guaranteed to find what you want lol I just recently moved from one major city to another and the lack of product and players is kind of alarming

The West is where it’s at.

Yet Asmodee is in the East.

So they won’t run any big events over here.