2 hours ago, RunnerAZ said:

The issue (in my opinion) is that there is no opportunity cost or trade-off for taking trajectory simulator. Unlike on the Scurgg, where you have to pay for a title and sacrifice the crew slot, most ships do not need to give anything up to take a cheap trajectory simulator. In my opinion, the trajectory simulator card should remove/replace a torpedo slot, or remove the modification slot (taking away ablative plating or shield/hull upgrades).

If trajectory simulator is going to impose hard choices on the opponent, then the decision to include it in a list should put a hard decision on the player using it.

The opportunity cost is not taking Advanced Sensors on Redline or FCS/Collision Detector on a Cutlass.

58 minutes ago, freakyg3 said:

I use punishers a lot - tragedy simulator shouldn’t be in the game - it’s too good - tie fighters can not face it. I dropped a ghost in one turn - three proton bombs followed by 2 fully modded proton torpedoes and one single modded - 14- 15 damage

This is literally what the Punisher was designed to do. And again, Trajectory simulator did 3 damage from three different ships, vs the 12 damage you did with three proton torpedoes, how are you concluding that it is the bombs that are too strong?

59 minutes ago, RunnerAZ said:

I think if Boba had been present, he would have done some work on the Redline squads.

Redline is good vs Boba as his hits reliably overwhelm Boba's green dice. It would be purely about who won the bid.

7 hours ago, NervousSam said:

As in the 'i dont get to roll defense dice against it' type of damage. You get how big an area seismics hit now right?

Yep, and you get how big the playmat is?

You can do your part with rocks to stack them too far out for the seismic to matter on the initial approach if you want to joust. But to me jousting Redline seems like the wrong choice in almost all circumstances.

It isn't like there isn't counter play. This is far from advanced slam bombing where you couldn't be anywhere.

3 minutes ago, Roundy1161 said:

Yep, and you get how big the playmat is?

You can do your part with rocks to stack them too far out for the seismic to matter on the initial approach. If you want to joust, but to me jousting Redline seems like the wrong choice in almost all circumstances.

It isn't like there isn't counter play. This is far from advanced slam bombing where you couldn't be anywhere.

Redline also packs 90 degrees of arc. Not 360 of them.

All of you people trying to defend Tragedy Simulator are wrong. It's threat area and ease of use, which is just point your ship at theirs, and it's guaranteed damage never should have been brought into 2.0 to begin with. When bombs are good the game is bad, see 1.0 nym miranda, and Tragedy simulator just makes the punisher extremely similar to 1.0 Nym.

2 minutes ago, SnooSnarry said:

All of you people trying to defend Tragedy Simulator are wrong. It's threat area and ease of use, which is just point your ship at theirs, and it's guaranteed damage never should have been brought into 2.0 to begin with. When bombs are good the game is bad, see 1.0 nym miranda, and Tragedy simulator just makes the punisher extremely similar to 1.0 Nym. 

But it's not autodamage if you avoid it. Which is entirely the argument most of us are trying to make. It's like getting punched by a 3 year old. You know they are going to do it, you see it coming from the other side of the room and if you get hit, it's your fault. In 1.0 there were often times it was very difficult to avoid due to PS advantage and other mechanics. Bomb launching in 2.0 is like comparing being punched by a 3 year old vs Floyd Mayweather in 1.0.

And it's not like Imperials have Sabine sitting some place slapping another damage card on you afterwards.

4 minutes ago, viedit said:

But it's not autodamage if you avoid it. Which is entirely the argument most of us are trying to make. It's like getting punched by a 3 year old. You know they are going to do it, you see it coming from the other side of the room and if you get hit, it's your fault. In 1.0 there were often times it was very difficult to avoid due to PS advantage and other mechanics. Bomb launching in 2.0 is like comparing being punched by a 3 year old vs Floyd Mayweather in 1.0.

And it's not like Imperials have Sabine sitting some place slapping another damage card on you afterwards.

Yes, just point your ship away from my punisher so I can get free fully modified proton torps at you. If you understand the threat area of a launched seismic then you wouldn't be defending this card, and if you do then you're just being willfully ignorant.

3 minutes ago, SnooSnarry said:

Yes, just point your ship away from my punisher so I can get free fully modified proton torps at you.

Exactly, Proton Torps are an issue in combination with bomb launching. Bomb launching by itself is pretty underwhelming.

I’ve tried to get IGs with Trajectory sim to work and it just doesn’t have enough kick. If IGs could also equipped Torps I’m sure it would have been a very different story.

This is why nymiranda was so devastating in 1.0 and why punishers (redline in particular) is so devastating now. I feel a points increase probably is needed on trajectory sim, but only for ships that have additional ordnance slots other than bombs. That and proton torps probably need a 1 or 2 point increase in general.

Would adding a "weapons disarmed" token as a cost for using the Trajectory Simulator be a possible deterrent?

Is the threat area substantially bigger than say...i dunno, the width of an arc at range 3?

How does it compare to the width of the arc at range 2?

It might be big, but I'm pretty confident a firing arc has a larger threat area

Just now, Roundy1161 said:

Is the threat area substantially bigger than say...i dunno, the width of an arc at range 3?

How does it compare to the width of the arc at range 2?

It might be big, but I'm pretty confident a firing arc has a larger threat area

For a well placed seismic?

The threat area is MASSIVE. Potentially range 1 of the three biggest asteroids in the game, or most of the centre of the board.

7 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

For a well placed seismic?

The threat area is MASSIVE. Potentially range 1 of the three biggest asteroids in the game, or most of the centre of the board.

Compared to the size of an arc? Not that much larger. An arc covers a very large part of the board.

Whilst you only control 50% of the rocks, don't cluster them up and you make it much harder for them.

3 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

The opportunity cost is not taking Advanced Sensors on Redline or FCS/Collision Detector on a Cutlass.

This is literally what the Punisher was designed to do. And again, Trajectory simulator did 3 damage from three different ships, vs the 12 damage you did with three proton torpedoes, how are you concluding that it is the bombs that are too strong?

The bombs are just the icing on the cake - the proton torpedoes could have been avoided with good flying. Imagine placing your ships - I place my three punishers across the board from you - you have two choices - run away and I chase you or face me. Unless you can shoot backwards - you are going to be in trouble. Put this on the table and you will see what I mean.

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v5!s!191:114,136,-1,-1,-1,69,71,103:;192:114,136,-1,-1,-1,69,71,103:;193:114,136,97,-1,-1,69,71,103:&sn=Punisher&obs=yt2400debris0,yt2400debris1,yt2400debris2

Without the tragedy simulator I think it would be fine

100% nerd sniped:

The threat range of a perfectly placed seismic is MASSIVE.

22 minutes ago, Mangostrike said:

Would adding a "weapons disarmed" token as a cost for using the Trajectory Simulator be a possible deterrent?

good idea

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

100% nerd sniped:

The threat range of a perfectly placed seismic is MASSIVE.

what if u used three punishers - deathfire launches seismic - reloads it with the free action and does a zero stop (that's my opening)

1 minute ago, freakyg3 said:

what if u used three punishers - deathfire launches seismic - reloads it with the free action and does a zero stop (that's my opening)

Then you could poentially detonate all 3 rocks but it would be a bit pointless because your opponent would have to 5 straight boost to get hit and could still only get hit by two at best.

Can only detonate one and only range 1 radius. If your flying through a cluster like that, you really need to look at your previous turns as to why you were there.

Bit bigger but not massively.

But amazing how much more fair it is if your near the right or left rocks... is that a choice you have?

22 hours ago, TBot said:

I hear cries that people think punishers are underpriced and proton bombs are underpriced. I think the issue is Traj Sim. For 3 points you can have a complete game warping ability. A lot of the time as an opponent, your choice is eat a crit and then a torpedo. Or turn away and get no shot at your opponent. Traj Sim makes bombs so much more valuable I feel it should cost much much more. Anyone agree? Or should i just get gud or fly 3 resistance bombers and soak it up?

I’m a rebel player. For years Punishers were useless bullet sponges. I’m ok if they are a little OP right now, Imperial pilots deserve it.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

100% nerd sniped:

The threat range of a perfectly placed seismic is MASSIVE.

If you're up against trajectory seismics perhaps you should not place the rocks in such a situation as to give such an advantage to your opponent. Also, this situation is so perfect it will never happen during a real game.

8 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

If you're up against trajectory seismics perhaps you should not place the rocks in such a situation as to give such an advantage to your opponent. Also, this situation is so perfect it will never happen during a real game.

And if you are the TSim Seismic player, you still get to place three of the rocks yourself.

I never said otherwise. I was pointing out a theoretical possibility, not a likely situation. But it will shows you the maximum possible range of a seismic which is like... range 5.5.

Trajectory simulator itself is quite predictable and avoidable by most nimble ships. I'm not too worried about that specifically.

And bombs at the end of the day do 1 damage, can obviously mount up but in itself it's not worse than most primary weapon attacks.

That said, I think this whole debate shows that it is a negative play experience for your opponent - like anything that dishes out 'unavoidable' damage it just makes you feel bad.

In 1.0 I hated bombs - anything with bombs - until the Starviper Mk2 arrived and I danced around bombs like a vicious ballerina. Now in 2.0, there are some interesting tools for bomb carriers - trajectory simulator is one of them, but the Nimble Bomber ability on TIE bombers is fun, as is Emon Azameen's ability. These effects cost more points to use - you have to buy bombs too. Yes, they help bombs hit their targets, but, well, that's the point. I still haven't found anything out of balance as of yet. You still have to fly smart when your opponent has bombs and some lists aren't as good at facing bombs but that doesn't mean trajectory simulator is overpriced. It means ships that can take it are effective and people are having fun with them. They can still be beaten. Punishers have Agility 1 for cryin' out loud. Shoot at them - they won't like it.

I played the same list twice recently (my opponent did the same - we played a rematch) - the first time, I played timid and got shot up. The second time, I played aggressive, put guns on target and shot my opponents ships to pieces. I'm not saying you need to do that vs traj sim but that you may need to alter your tactics when facing them if you're having a problem. Has anyone here used traj sim and been beaten badly? And how did it happen? What tactics work best vs Redline w/traj sim? I'd rather see a deep discussion about that than how many points FFG should shave off.

nobody complained about trajsim in 1.0 when you could launch with a high PS and make it literally unavoidable.
Why is it suddenly a problem? When it goes off before anybody moves?

This is a game of predictions, expect the bomb and fly accordingly. If that means disengaging, then disengage and then come back later.

Be glad bombletts cant cause crits anymore lol

48 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

nobody complained about trajsim in 1.0 when you could launch with a high PS and make it literally unavoidable.
Why is it suddenly a problem? When it goes off before anybody moves?

This is a game of predictions, expect the bomb and fly accordingly. If that means disengaging, then disengage and then come back later.

Be glad bombletts cant cause crits anymore lol

Ummm many of us did. There was a very dark period of a few weeks where trajectory + genius nym was close to killing the game. It resulted in an emergency FAQ that at least stopped the TJ and genius interaction.