I hear cries that people think punishers are underpriced and proton bombs are underpriced. I think the issue is Traj Sim. For 3 points you can have a complete game warping ability. A lot of the time as an opponent, your choice is eat a crit and then a torpedo. Or turn away and get no shot at your opponent. Traj Sim makes bombs so much more valuable I feel it should cost much much more. Anyone agree? Or should i just get gud or fly 3 resistance bombers and soak it up?

4 minutes ago, TBot said:

I hear cries that people think punishers are underpriced and proton bombs are underpriced. I think the issue is Traj Sim. For 3 points you can have a complete game warping ability. A lot of the time as an opponent, your choice is eat a crit and then a torpedo. Or turn away and get no shot at your opponent. Traj Sim makes bombs so much more valuable I feel it should cost much much more. Anyone agree? Or should i just get gud or fly 3 resistance bombers and soak it up?

I suggest playing the Punisher as if it doesn't have reload in a one off test then relook at your question...

13 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I suggest playing the Punisher as if it doesn't have reload in a one off test then relook at your question...

Are you inferring that traj sim is not too cheap? And you're inferring that punishers are too cheap becuase a white reload action is too good?

1 minute ago, TBot said:

Are you inferring that traj sim is not too cheap? And you're inferring that punishers are too cheap becuase a white reload action is too good?

The white reload permits them allot more freedom with how they use their bombs. Instead of waiting for near certain hits they can fire them off on strong suspicions of what the opponent is going to do. Allot harder to justify doing so if you only have a couple of charges to work with an cannot replenish them. Bombs also aren't the only muliti-target weapon they can use. Cluster and Concussion missiles are useful against multiple targets.

32 minutes ago, TBot said:

A lot of the    time as an opponent, your choice is eat  a crit and then a torpedo. Or turn away and get no shot at your opponent. 

Sounds like counter play... seems good

Punishers are not underpriced, Redline maybe is, but the generic chassis is not a great buy.

Trajectory Simulators are maybe underpriced, but our only real datapoint is one meme tournament where Redline placed very well.

Trajectory simulator never should have made it to 2.0.

I love trajectory simulator. Maybe I'm crazy, but I find it really fun to use and also fun to fly against.

Can’t speak for punishers a lot, though after flying against redline a bit he feels a little undercosted.

I have nothing wrong with how Trajectory sim is costed in general. On a Scurrg that can’t reload or fire Torps/missile in combination with launched bombs, 3pts feels right. I think Trajectory sim may only feel undercosted when equipped to a punisher speficially.

1 hour ago, intoxicatedALF said:

I have nothing wrong with how Trajectory sim is costed in general. On a Scurrg that can’t reload or fire Torps/missile in combination with launched bombs, 3pts feels right. I think Trajectory sim may only feel undercosted when equipped to a punisher speficially.

Exactly

The trick with punisher is that you have one, maybe two turn to get a fair chance with you ATS, due to its very slow dial. That is not SUPER overcosted. But I admit I won't be shocked if it get a point increase of 1 point ( max 2).

I don't enjoy flying against ships with traj simulator. If I approach from the front ill get a bomb in my face. If I flank and attack from the rear, you get a bomb out the back.. Its not easy and I don't enjoy rolling no dice to defend myself.

Bombers, K-Wings and Punishers base chassis is too cheap.

Barrage Rockets are too cheap (but should arguably be a variable cost on arcs your ship has).

Trajectory Simulator is probably too cheap as well.

Its an algebra problem where you have to work out how much to increase X, Y and Z by to arrive at the desired points cost increases for all three ships without overshooting one but leaving the other undercosted.

9 minutes ago, william1134 said:

I don't enjoy flying against ships with traj simulator. If I approach from the front ill get a bomb in my face. If I flank and attack from the rear, you get a bomb out the back.. Its not easy and I don't enjoy rolling no dice to defend myself.

Have you ever tried approching from the side ?

You can even attack from the front without getting hit by traj sim if you come from an angle.

I can't decide if I think Trajectory Simulator is too cheap og fundamentally broken.

Is it an interesting mechanic? Without lauching, bombs and mines becomes a tool for the post joust og when beeing chased. I think that is a better way for the game to have them.

I think Trajectory Simulator is one of the coolest designs in the game, and I think it's borderline vital to keeping bombs a valid upgrade type. Without it, and without the Advanced SLAM that was so abused in 1.0, you may as well just remove bombs from the game entirely (which is basically the bomb experience for most of 1.0 history).

I don't think the problem lies with how you deliver bombs to the table, the problem lies in what bombs do when they explode.

1 hour ago, SOTL said:

Bombers, K-Wings and Punishers base chassis is too cheap.

Interesting point on the K-Wings. I'd certainly agree on the Bombers, and largely agree on the Punishers, but I've been mildly underwhelmed by the K-Wing so far. What's been making them strong for you?

The bombs themselves are pretty inexpensive, too. Look at Proton Bombs, which were played in 1.0, where you had to pay 6 points for 2 charges (assuming you have one other set of ordnance). So 12-ish points in 2.0 terms. They actually cost less than half as much now and take up fewer slots! Of course, against shielded ships they aren't as good anymore and maybe a comparison to seismics is more apropriate, but those weren't used much and with crits being pretty nasty now, against unshielded ships they are arguably stronger.

3 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

The bombs themselves are pretty inexpensive, too. Look at Proton Bombs, which were played in 1.0, where you had to pay 6 points for 2 charges (assuming you have one other set of ordnance). So 12-ish points in 2.0 terms. They actually cost less than half as much now and take up fewer slots! Of course, against shielded ships they aren't as good anymore and maybe a comparison to seismics is more apropriate, but those weren't used much and with crits being pretty nasty now, against unshielded ships they are arguably stronger.

I think Proton Bombs 2.0 are a lot close to the old Seismic/Thermals price point. They'd have been 3 points in 1.0.

14 minutes ago, Jarval said:

Interesting point on the K-Wings. I'd certainly agree on the Bombers, and largely agree on the Punishers, but I've been mildly underwhelmed by the K-Wing so far. What's been making them strong for you?

The Quad Warden list is very good and robust, and the real benefit is that Barrage Rocket lock off their front arc and you leave the bowtie arcs to cover the side and can operate mostly like an old 360 degree turreted ship.

4 Wardens with Barrage, 3 with Bombs. It's a good squad that the few people who are running are having great success with - you just don't hear about it much because who has 4 K-Wings and 2 Rebel kits (and then 2 Imp kits for the Barrage)? And it's especially good because the Barrage Rockets cost doesn't recognise the extra benefit of adding a whole new arc to a ship that doesn't already have a front arc.

James Dowdall of the 186th Squadron is a big fan of Quad K, we worked on the concept together - he had part of the reason why they were good and I had the other so when we got together we realised there was definitely something in it. You can hear him talk about it on the 186th Podcast, and I believe he went unbeaten with it at the UK Team Championship this weekend.

Yeah trajectory + seismic charges is a bit Bull...

It's such a big area denial weapon in a game like this.

40 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

Yeah trajectory + seismic charges is a bit Bull...

It's such a big area denial weapon in a game like this.

It is. But also, you just soak the one damage and kill whatever fired it.

Protons have the scary aspect of dealing crits, Bomblets have the poential for multiple damage. But Seismic is just one damage, there are almost no lists that can't just... joust that.

8 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It is. But also, you just soak the one damage and kill whatever fired it.

Protons have the scary aspect of dealing crits, Bomblets have the poential for multiple damage. But Seismic is just one damage, there are almost no lists that can't just... joust that.

Well One dmg on alot of ships. But sure you can usually just just it, but it can be nowhere near your ships and still hit them. It's not Broken, but annoying to face since it's so hard to avoid.

But everything is annoying to face. That's why you put it in your list: to annoy opponents.

I hate tragedy simulator, but I agree TS or the punisher chassis will see point adjustments to even out its effectiveness. Auto damage is a tricky thing to balance.